Combating Racism in America

[Piddy]

35 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

It's actual institutional racism, literally. An institution has put in place a policy which treats people differently depending on what race they are identified as. No amount of fancy tap-dancing makes that not racist. This is precisely the sort of evidence I asked for when people asserted that institutional racism exists. So I guess I was wrong, it does exist. Just not the way the belief system espoused by these folks requires it. I get it, and I don't mean to tread on anyone's belief system, but to convert me to your religion will take actual evidence.

Too much work.  We gave you plenty of evidence of Trump's tendencies towards authoritarianism and you dismissed them.  So in the interest of going down that same road of obstinance I'll refrain.  🙂

Edited June 5, 2020 by Piddy

[sothereiwas]

3 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

You think your country is institutionally racist

No, the specific institution has racist policies which are public knowledge, although there were some lawsuits over it at one time. I assume we will get it right someday. 

[Emilie Jolie]

I'm trying to wrap my head around your pov, which sounds like you equate quotas policies with anti-white racism and are calling that institutional racism, but you think no other racism exists in your country? That's...intriguing. 

[sothereiwas]

2 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around your pov, which sounds like you equate quotas policies with anti-white racism

It's pretty simple. I'm saying an institutional policy that treats people differently based on their race is racist. The specific colors involved are irrelevant to me, as I am not an actual racist. How hard is that?

[Emilie Jolie]

You can't be racist against all races... You can think affirmative action is discrimanatory, as does the US Supreme Court, but it's not racist. Insitutional or structural racism is a different concept.

[sothereiwas]

5 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

You can't be racist against all races

Never said the policy was racist against all races, merely that the specific race(s) in question are irrelevant, racial discrimination is wrong in almost every instance.  

To discriminate means literally to see a difference. Think about that and look at what you wrote. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by sothereiwas

[Emilie Jolie]

2 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Never said the policy was racist against all races, merely that the specific race(s) in question are irrelevant 

You called it institutionally racist, without specifying any race - which group do you think affirmative action is racist towards, specifically?

My simple point: you can argue it's discriminatory, if you want, but it is not institutionally racist. 

[Gr8fuln2020]

3 hours ago, schlumpy said:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21

The incarceration rate is higher because African American criminals are committing more crimes then their numbers would suggest. So, more end up going to jail.

The sentencing is harsher because many African American criminals have extensive rap sheets that the judge takes into consideration when sentencing. They add more time when you have been a bad boy or girl more then once.

I think we already agreed that poverty does not force anyone to become a criminal. The admirable strength of the black church will attest to that.

You forgot to ask why there are not more African Amercian CEOs or African Americans in college? That is easily explained by the low graduation rate of African Americans from High School as compared to others.

These are all problems that can be solved if they are recognized instead hidden under the blanket of historic, systemic or individual racism.

Ha. You original points, in no way explain the inequity to access to legal counsel, opportunity to modified sentencing, etc. You are aware, I am certain that people of colour are less like to receive options for social, medical, legal rehab, services. That is a combination of poverty, for sure, and other legal limitations and barriers. For you to dismiss poverty and limitations and barriers that are created by such, is irresponsible. And if you think people come into this world thinking I want live in a poor, crime-ridden environment, you are mistaken. 
 

Whoop whoop! Thank you for mentioning poor education rates. I see that you enjoy looking at the statistics in a microcosm without any appreciation of the historic impact. Again, the educational system has a long history. I will say just one thing regarding this though there is so much more... Brown vs. Board of Education. This decision was just in 1954. There are people, many, who are still living today, who were impacted by this decision. Less than 50 years ago. Then ask yourself, what you think happened next is many, most public districts and how the educational system changed.

Love it. Hey, there is absolute no doubt that some families do not emphasize education or have given up. No argument there. 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Gr8fuln2020

[Gr8fuln2020]

Sorry meant 70 years ago. 

[TheStickisback]

The big problem is we look for simple answers for complex problems. In the end racism isn't about race but a way to divert attention from the real issues like AI eventually putting a lot of people out of work. Elites trying to take the rights of the the average citizen. We blame people that oppose our opinions but its not the case. 

[Weezy1973]

I agree that racism currently isn’t nearly as detrimental as people think it is. But dismissing the experiences of older generations and the impact that has had on current generations just shows a lack of understanding about how people work. 
 

[sothereiwas]

12 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

I agree that racism currently isn’t nearly as detrimental as people think it is. But dismissing the experiences of older generations and the impact that has had on current generations just shows a lack of understanding about how people work. 

Assume for the sake of argument I agree that all these problems are due to past racism. What is your solution? What actionable thing does that give us?

Edited June 6, 2020 by sothereiwas
Typo

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

Assume for the sake of argument I agree that all these problems are due to past racism. What is your solution? What actionable thing does that give us?

The first thing by far is to acknowledge that some people start further back in life due to their race. There is a large cohort of the US population that doesn’t even want to acknowledge that. 
 

But in your hypothetical, you’re accepting it. So what next. There’s no magic pill that will bridge the gap in my opinion but essentially you need healthy choices to be a better option than unhealthy choices. That takes the right incentives, which in my opinion are a public education option designed to reach inner city kids. Increasing police training and recruiting police officers that are from those inner cities to combat gang crime, making it an unattractive option. And a public healthcare option. A kid being raised by a single parent working a minimum wage job is unlikely to be covered by health insurance. That would be a starting point.

[TheStickisback]

I have to agree that Affirmative Action is kind of racist. Any policy that is equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity tends to be discriminatory. When it goes from seeking the most qualified to getting a specific group for the sake of diversity then it's a problem. This is coming from a black guy. 

[sothereiwas]

2 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

But in your hypothetical, you’re accepting it. So what next.

As long as we don't go down the "we're going to cure any vestiges of racial discrimination with more racial discrimination" route I'm interested. In the above mentioned Harvard discrimination case, if they were really interested in diversity they could, instead of giving specific races preferential treatment, give a similar treatment to students who come from humble backgrounds. Or maybe they could set it up to prefer students from US counties that are under represented at Harvard. All sorts of things that can be done that would accomplish essentially the same thing without making it based on race or some other immutable characteristic.

 

[SweetCharity]

I can't with these responses. Frankly, I'm disappointed with Loveshack. This forum is supposed to be about kindness but all I'm seeing is thinly veiled racism.

[sothereiwas]

“If we wanted to be serious about evidence, we might compare where blacks stood a hundred years after the end of slavery with where they stood after 30 years of the liberal welfare state. In other words, we could compare hard evidence on “the legacy of slavery” with hard evidence on the legacy of liberals.

Despite the grand myth that black economic progress began or accelerated with the passage of the civil rights laws and “war on poverty” programs of the 1960s, the cold fact is that the poverty rate among blacks fell from 87 percent in 1940 to 47 percent by 1960. This was before any of those programs began.

Over the next 20 years, the poverty rate among blacks fell another 18 percentage points, compared to the 40-point drop in the previous 20 years. This was the continuation of a previous economic trend, at a slower rate of progress, not the economic grand deliverance proclaimed by liberals and self-serving black “leaders.”

Nearly a hundred years of the supposed “legacy of slavery” found most black children [78%] being raised in two-parent families in 1960. But thirty years after the liberal welfare state found the great majority of black children being raised by a single parent [66%]. Public housing projects in the first half of the 20th century were clean, safe places, where people slept outside on hot summer nights, when they were too poor to afford air conditioning. That was before admissions standards for public housing projects were lowered or abandoned, in the euphoria of liberal non-judgmental notions. And it was before the toxic message of victimhood was spread by liberals. We all know what hell holes public housing has become in our times. The same toxic message produced similar social results among lower-income people in England, despite an absence of a “legacy of slavery” there.

If we are to go by evidence of social retrogression, liberals have wreaked more havoc on blacks than the supposed “legacy of slavery” they talk about.”

  - Tomas Sowell, The Myths of Economic Inequality

[TheStickisback]

Just now, SweetCharity said:

I can't with these responses. Frankly, I'm disappointed with Loveshack. This forum is supposed to be about kindness but all I'm seeing is thinly veiled racism.

We all carry some biased opinion. The first step to dealing with the problem is being honest about it and going from there. Dismissing it as racism

 

21 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

“If we wanted to be serious about evidence, we might compare where blacks stood a hundred years after the end of slavery with where they stood after 30 years of the liberal welfare state. In other words, we could compare hard evidence on “the legacy of slavery” with hard evidence on the legacy of liberals.

Despite the grand myth that black economic progress began or accelerated with the passage of the civil rights laws and “war on poverty” programs of the 1960s, the cold fact is that the poverty rate among blacks fell from 87 percent in 1940 to 47 percent by 1960. This was before any of those programs began.

Over the next 20 years, the poverty rate among blacks fell another 18 percentage points, compared to the 40-point drop in the previous 20 years. This was the continuation of a previous economic trend, at a slower rate of progress, not the economic grand deliverance proclaimed by liberals and self-serving black “leaders.”

Nearly a hundred years of the supposed “legacy of slavery” found most black children [78%] being raised in two-parent families in 1960. But thirty years after the liberal welfare state found the great majority of black children being raised by a single parent [66%]. Public housing projects in the first half of the 20th century were clean, safe places, where people slept outside on hot summer nights, when they were too poor to afford air conditioning. That was before admissions standards for public housing projects were lowered or abandoned, in the euphoria of liberal non-judgmental notions. And it was before the toxic message of victimhood was spread by liberals. We all know what hell holes public housing has become in our times. The same toxic message produced similar social results among lower-income people in England, despite an absence of a “legacy of slavery” there.

If we are to go by evidence of social retrogression, liberals have wreaked more havoc on blacks than the supposed “legacy of slavery” they talk about.”

  - Tomas Sowell, The Myths of Economic Inequality

Sowell. No

[TheStickisback]

27 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

“If we wanted to be serious about evidence, we might compare where blacks stood a hundred years after the end of slavery with where they stood after 30 years of the liberal welfare state. In other words, we could compare hard evidence on “the legacy of slavery” with hard evidence on the legacy of liberals.

Despite the grand myth that black economic progress began or accelerated with the passage of the civil rights laws and “war on poverty” programs of the 1960s, the cold fact is that the poverty rate among blacks fell from 87 percent in 1940 to 47 percent by 1960. This was before any of those programs began.

Over the next 20 years, the poverty rate among blacks fell another 18 percentage points, compared to the 40-point drop in the previous 20 years. This was the continuation of a previous economic trend, at a slower rate of progress, not the economic grand deliverance proclaimed by liberals and self-serving black “leaders.”

Nearly a hundred years of the supposed “legacy of slavery” found most black children [78%] being raised in two-parent families in 1960. But thirty years after the liberal welfare state found the great majority of black children being raised by a single parent [66%]. Public housing projects in the first half of the 20th century were clean, safe places, where people slept outside on hot summer nights, when they were too poor to afford air conditioning. That was before admissions standards for public housing projects were lowered or abandoned, in the euphoria of liberal non-judgmental notions. And it was before the toxic message of victimhood was spread by liberals. We all know what hell holes public housing has become in our times. The same toxic message produced similar social results among lower-income people in England, despite an absence of a “legacy of slavery” there.

If we are to go by evidence of social retrogression, liberals have wreaked more havoc on blacks than the supposed “legacy of slavery” they talk about.”

  - Tomas Sowell, The Myths of Economic Inequality

I'm very funny about conservative blacks in the public. That being said I'm funny about black liberals too. Neither group helps anyone. It's like having two parents divorcing and each one offering something to get you to choose them when the reality is both are bad parents

[SweetCharity]

9 minutes ago, TheStickisback said:

We all carry some biased opinion. The first step to dealing with the problem is being honest about it and going from there. Dismissing it as racism

 

Sowell. No

Racism is the problem. There's a lot of gaslighting going on in this thread about how it doesn't exist for black people. A lot of misinformation being thrown around.  I'm not going to debate anyone, because frankly, it's not my job to educate people. But I'm disappointed in this forum. We should care about people. All I'm seeing is denial and indifference. 

[SweetCharity]

8 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

No one here is saying racism doesn't exist. What some people like me are saying is that just maybe, racism is not the root cause of all problems in the black, or really any other communities. Pretty much everyone has faced racism in their lives, including white people. 

As I've said before, I'm not going to debate anyone. You all want to die on that hill, that's fine with me.

[SweetCharity]

16 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

Ok. If all you got to say is everyone is wrong but you can't say why, not sure why you bother to contribute. We are just trying to discuss the problems. 

This isn't actually a discussion. That's laughable. Even if I presented evidence of how the black community is marginalized more than any other minority in this country, that was built on the backs of slaves, you would find some way to discredit it. 

As a woman of color I know this game. I had to deal with it when my racist ex-boss told me to "cite facts" right before asking me how many baby daddies my mother had and if my father was in MS16. Which by the way, he wasn't. He actually served this country along with all my uncles on the Mexican side of my family. 

I don't owe you a debate. I'm just flabbergasted this forum is allowing this. There is no empathy. 

Here's my contribution: Google is right there. Maybe use it to educate yourself. Maybe instead of harping on about "white people too" do something to fight racism. Both black and white people are dying in the streets right now protesting police brutality. It affects everyone. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by SweetCharity

[TheStickisback]

Just now, Emilie Jolie said:

Hired minorities are not unqualified though, are they?

Listen carefully. When a company seeks out minorities they are only giving equality to show an outcome and not equally offering everyone an opportunity. Black guy here. If you don't believe me I can send a pic

[Haydn]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/26/central-park-new-york-white-woman-black-birdwatcher

Hmmm....

[Emilie Jolie]

4 minutes ago, TheStickisback said:

Listen carefully. When a company seeks out minorities they are only giving equality to show an outcome and not equally offering everyone an opportunity. Black guy here. If you don't believe me I can send a pic

I'm listening. We have the same thing in the UK, it's not exclusive to the USA. What I am saying is that recruiting minorities of equal qualifications (that's how it works) is not a racist endeavour against white people. It has been set up to encourage diversity, or employers would be recruiting the equally qualified white person as standard. If things were fair, there would not have been a need for AA.