Combating Racism in America

[sothereiwas]

34 minutes ago, salparadise said:

The awareness of being black he cites, his father lecturing he and his siblings on how to survive an encounter with police, and the awareness of being the "other" every time he steps outside, those are things white kids never have to worry about.

Seriously, I'd like every white person here whose father didn't have this chat with them to raise their hand, because everyone I know had this advice given. I had it given by not only MY dad, but a friends dad gave me the advice once as well. That's a dad's job. Why anyone would imagine any good dad wouldn't give advice like this is really a mystery to me. If dad didn't have this talk, he fell down on the job. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by sothereiwas

[major_merrick]

I disagree with the idea that what I have in life came down to luck.  I started out EXTREMELY unlucky.  As unlucky as any of the black folks in the area where I grew up.  I think a lot of life comes down to location, kind of like real estate.  I left the place where I grew up, and did what I had to do in order to succeed.  And I know people of other races/cultures who have done the same thing. 

Part of combatting racism is going to be "seeing yourself" in other people.  And then bonding with them and sticking up for them in a personal way even when that involves risk.  I saw my husband do that just last night!

The Klan came to the little town that's just down the road from where I live.  A few backwoods dumb@$$es angry at the protests and riots.  Thought they would vandalize the little Mexican café on the town square - a very popular spot to eat owned by friends of ours.  On one side of the square is a statue of my husband's great-great-great grandfather, a local Confederate hero.  Klan thought that was a good rallying point.  My husband went to confront them, and I went along in my car to watch things play out.  He grabbed the Klan's Confederate flag and took it away, telling them "You don't deserve to have this!"  No vandalism or violence ended up happening - a proper scolding and a show of force did the job.  The irony is that my husband's ancestor escaped from a Union internment camp - to MEXICO.  In other words, while he stayed there, he was an illegal immigrant!  . 

To me, it was amazing to see the contrast.  The statue representing the old Confederacy, and then two different things that have developed since then.  On one side, violent masked bigots.  On the other side,  a new majority that is culturally/ethnically integrated while remaining true to a separatist spirit. I don't think we have to revise or eradicate our history in order to stand together.  We don't have to paint our ancestors in a totally positive or negative light.  Fighting injustice will be a lot less controversial without the political Antifa-style "lets fundamentally transform things" attitude.  We can work at being friends, neighbors, and communities instead of races, ethnicities, and nations.  Almost the reverse of globalism in some ways. 

[some_username1]

3 hours ago, elaine567 said:

The reality is that most people are selfish and self centred.
We are built to compete, to make the best out of life we can.
Racism is not about lack of education, it is usually about looking out for number one.
Survival of the fittest.
Most races with an "advantage" over a minority group around the world, do not want to give that up.
Why would they?
They may tolerate minorities as second class citizens, born to serve, but true equality? No way..
Some countries will even make living as a  minority very difficult or impossible.
It suits the majority race too much to be superior, so they never want to cede power. 
That is why I believe racism, covert or overt is not going anywhere, anytime soon.
Sad to say.

 

I’ve been thinking much along the same lines. Basically, do white people have a monopoly on racism and systemic oppression or is it a dark and depressing aspect of human nature that when conditions are favourable we will seek to gain advantage over a minority in that culture no matter what the skin colour? Given our evolutionary history we know the value of going along with what our peers find acceptable and of protecting our own power base by ensuring there are people below us in the social hierarchy. I don’t think this is just something that white people do. The classic example is school, anyone who stands out or is different from the herd can be treated as ‘less than’ by the pack. Workplace bullying is another example. I’m sure both of those issues occur across cultures and skin tones.

I’d be interested to hear if there have been any studies done on this, particularly with regards to cultures that have suffered from oppression- do they learn, in turn how to oppress and are they capable of it or do they learn to reject it based on their experiences and treat other minorities within their culture as equals?

[some_username1]

11 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

I disagree with the idea that what I have in life came down to luck.  I started out EXTREMELY unlucky.  As unlucky as any of the black folks in the area where I grew up.  I think a lot of life comes down to location, kind of like real estate.  I left the place where I grew up, and did what I had to do in order to succeed.  And I know people of other races/cultures who have done the same thing. 

Part of combatting racism is going to be "seeing yourself" in other people.  And then bonding with them and sticking up for them in a personal way even when that involves risk.  I saw my husband do that just last night!

The Klan came to the little town that's just down the road from where I live.  A few backwoods dumb@$$es angry at the protests and riots.  Thought they would vandalize the little Mexican café on the town square - a very popular spot to eat owned by friends of ours.  On one side of the square is a statue of my husband's great-great-great grandfather, a local Confederate hero.  Klan thought that was a good rallying point.  My husband went to confront them, and I went along in my car to watch things play out.  He grabbed the Klan's Confederate flag and took it away, telling them "You don't deserve to have this!"  No vandalism or violence ended up happening - a proper scolding and a show of force did the job.  The irony is that my husband's ancestor escaped from a Union internment camp - to MEXICO.  In other words, while he stayed there, he was an illegal immigrant!  . 

To me, it was amazing to see the contrast.  The statue representing the old Confederacy, and then two different things that have developed since then.  On one side, violent masked bigots.  On the other side,  a new majority that is culturally/ethnically integrated while remaining true to a separatist spirit. I don't think we have to revise or eradicate our history in order to stand together.  We don't have to paint our ancestors in a totally positive or negative light.  Fighting injustice will be a lot less controversial without the political Antifa-style "lets fundamentally transform things" attitude.  We can work at being friends, neighbors, and communities instead of races, ethnicities, and nations.  Almost the reverse of globalism in some ways. 

Well said! Also imo it starts with an inclusive message too that everyone can get behind. Personally the whole use of “privilege” leaves me cold, it’s like a barrier that inserts difference from the start. Let’s focus not on our differences but on what we have in common as humans who both bleed the same colour blood and who want better opportunities/treatment for the worst off in our society.

[major_merrick]

2 minutes ago, some_username1 said:

I’d be interested to hear if there have been any studies done on this, particularly with regards to cultures that have suffered from oppression- do they learn, in turn how to oppress and are they capable of it or do they learn to reject it based on their experiences and treat other minorities within their culture as equals?

I don't know about studies, but I've seen individual examples.  One place where I worked, I knew a woman who'd grown up in a concentration camp.  She became a supervisor, and treated her employees pretty terribly. Basically, she ended up acting like a camp guard.  Some people learn evil from others, but all people have that capability inside themselves.  Others will see injustice and react against it, trying hard to be decent to people around them. 

I believe that oppression and mistreatment is highly individual, rather than cultural.  Even when it looks like a group choice, it is always up to you whether you behave badly or try to be different.

[Ellener]

4 hours ago, salparadise said:

Hopefully this post will be approved before the concept of race is abolished completely.

😁

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, some_username1 said:

I’d be interested to hear if there have been any studies done on this, particularly with regards to cultures that have suffered from oppression- do they learn, in turn how to oppress and are they capable of it or do they learn to reject it based on their experiences and treat other minorities within their culture as equals?

An example of previously oppressed cultures responding to minorities in the modern world? The Gaza Strip, Israel and Palestine, a 53 year 'unresolved peace process' is I guess the most studied: 'Reapproaching Borders: New Perspectives on the Study of Israel-Palestine' by Sufian and Levine ( 2007 )....'The Hundred Years' War on Palestine: A History of Settler Colonialism and Resistance, 1917–2017' by Rashid Khalidi (2020 )

The concept of ethnocentrism is important regarding a study: 'It is somewhat difficult for us to recognize that the value which we attribute to our own civilization is due to the fact that we participate in this civilization, and that it has been controlling all our actions from the time of our birth.' ( Franz Boaz )

Sometimes what we feel as objectively 'fair' or accurate may not be either from another viewpoint. Cultural relativism is attempting to see all points of view.

 

 

 

 

[major_merrick]

@Ellener  I think the idea of ethnocentrism has limited value in America. 

I'll use myself as an example.  I was born and raised in America, yet I didn't begin learning English until I was in Elementary school.  I have fair skin and blonde hair.  The neighborhood where I grew up was predominantly black.  My heritage is Russian and German.  I live in a family with multiple women of various ethnic origins.  Aside from the fact that I consider myself to be ethnically Russian, at face-value what would you guess my ethnicity to be? 

I think that many Americans don't have a particular ethnicity that they can call their own.  Being "American" isn't an ethnicity, as that looks very different from location to location, and even in the same community.  Being "white" or being "black" doesn't cut it, as a Russian and an Italian are both white but very different.  And a black man from Georgia and a black man from Nigeria are also quite different.  Likewise, being "Hispanic" differs by origin....in my family we have a woman from Argentina and a woman from Mexico, and the differences are pretty obvious. 

I know it may sound like I'm splitting hairs, but I think some of the conflict in America is due to the exact opposite of ethnocentrism.  To make up for a lack of identity, many people will over-emphasize an identity that they choose.  Their ethnicity is partially or completely a mental construct.  We haven't yet figured out a way to deal with the American Melting Pot and construct an identity that functions.  In fact, the radical left has tried to destroy what little American Identity there was. 

To combat racism and injustice, we've got to have something bigger than our individual ethnicities.  There has to be some kind of "us" feeling.  I don't know how else to put it.  We've started to grow that feeling in my rural county, especially since COVID and now with the riots.  We're not the same racially or culturally, but we share a community.  The only other institutions that I know of that replicate that are the military and the Church.  So how do we learn from places/situations where there is that "us" feeling and replicate it on a bigger scale?

[TheStickisback]

30 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

@Ellener  I think the idea of ethnocentrism has limited value in America. 

I'll use myself as an example.  I was born and raised in America, yet I didn't begin learning English until I was in Elementary school.  I have fair skin and blonde hair.  The neighborhood where I grew up was predominantly black.  My heritage is Russian and German.  I live in a family with multiple women of various ethnic origins.  Aside from the fact that I consider myself to be ethnically Russian, at face-value what would you guess my ethnicity to be? 

I think that many Americans don't have a particular ethnicity that they can call their own.  Being "American" isn't an ethnicity, as that looks very different from location to location, and even in the same community.  Being "white" or being "black" doesn't cut it, as a Russian and an Italian are both white but very different.  And a black man from Georgia and a black man from Nigeria are also quite different.  Likewise, being "Hispanic" differs by origin....in my family we have a woman from Argentina and a woman from Mexico, and the differences are pretty obvious. 

I know it may sound like I'm splitting hairs, but I think some of the conflict in America is due to the exact opposite of ethnocentrism.  To make up for a lack of identity, many people will over-emphasize an identity that they choose.  Their ethnicity is partially or completely a mental construct.  We haven't yet figured out a way to deal with the American Melting Pot and construct an identity that functions.  In fact, the radical left has tried to destroy what little American Identity there was. 

To combat racism and injustice, we've got to have something bigger than our individual ethnicities.  There has to be some kind of "us" feeling.  I don't know how else to put it.  We've started to grow that feeling in my rural county, especially since COVID and now with the riots.  We're not the same racially or culturally, but we share a community.  The only other institutions that I know of that replicate that are the military and the Church.  So how do we learn from places/situations where there is that "us" feeling and replicate it on a bigger scale?

Radical left lol. Actually both parties fail at improving race relations it's just a matter of whether you want to know you are being stabbed or someone stabbing you in the back

[jspice]

Yes, of course. Silly me. You’re all right about switching places with three famous Black people. Racism is dead. 
Thanks for educating me. 

[Timshel]

All understand, of course,  that argument and division serve a purpose and not for the majority.  As titillating as it is to pick each other apart, person's would be better suited to history and evolution and not be easily distracted.   

There has so far never been change without blood, sweat and tears.  We aren't 'there' to resolve important things without killing/harming each other, we apparently aren't bright enough at this point in time to break our historical way of making change. A** kisser's we are not, silly billy. 

The powers that be do not give two sh*ts what most people think, before any person has their dander up, remember who benefits from your outrage and which side of history any free thinking person will be.

 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, Timshel said:

The powers that be do not give two sh*ts what most people think, before any person has their dander up, remember who benefits from your outrage and which side of history any free thinking person will be.

It is a saying and a truism: the history of the conflict is written by the winning side.

I think we may have a shift in the Zeitgeist here today, when so many people just faced fear and a potential of death or panic from the pandemic: we are all the same, it's not a competition any more.

[pepperbird]

38 minutes ago, Ellener said:

It is a saying and a truism: the history of the conflict is written by the winning side.

I think we may have a shift in the Zeitgeist here today, when so many people just faced fear and a potential of death or panic from the pandemic: we are all the same, it's not a competition any more.

maybe.
personally, I expect that this will be similar to the climate change protests. they were trendy and attracted thousands, but when all was said and done, they, in and of themselves, didn't do all that much- not long term anyway. those who feel they want to put the work in to make the changes will keep on  plugging away , same as they always have. They may not get a lot of accolades or attention, and they won't care. That's not why they do it. They'd do it even if no one else cared.

Even if these big protest movements are not long lived, at least they get a lot of attention, and that's good. Whether any change is long term or not remains. to be seen. i hope it is. Right now, I don't think people are ready to come to the table. they're too angry- that needs an outlet. Their voices need to be heard.

[sothereiwas]

1 minute ago, pepperbird said:

when all was said and done, they, in and of themselves, didn't do all that much- not long term anyway

At the end of the day feels are fickle. 

[Timshel]

1 hour ago, Ellener said:

 we are all the same, it's not a competition any more.

It never has been, that's what we can't seem to wrap our mind around.  If we say we aren't animals, that we are enlightened/blessed, then we have to show that, by action..else it's fodder.

[preraph]

Which starts by not committing crimes against people, all around.  

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, pepperbird said:

those who feel they want to put the work in to make the changes will keep on  plugging away , same as they always have. They may not get a lot of accolades or attention, and they won't care. That's not why they do it. They'd do it even if no one else cared.

Yes, the protesters will make their point and go home, leaving it to a lesser number to follow through, but

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.

Margaret Mead

[salparadise]

1 hour ago, pepperbird said:

Even if these big protest movements are not long lived, at least they get a lot of attention, and that's good. Whether any change is long term or not remains. to be seen.

The protests are heartfelt expressions of emotion and outrage. They aren't sustainable at a high level over the long-term without more egregious incidents to reinvigorate collective emotions. There will be more though. And if Chauvin were to be acquitted or handed a light sentence, who knows how active people might become. The awareness and disgust will not disappear just because people aren't marching every day. People will vote for change; reform candidates will be elected. Change happens over time, in waves. This is a continuation, a new wave, of the same civil rights movement led by MLK in the 60s. The difference this time is that it's not [mostly] limited to those upon whom the abuse and injustice is perpetrated; all races are protesting in solidarity, and many more will be voting in solidarity. And it just so happens that the next big opportunity for that is less than 5 months away. It will be interesting to see just how far the pendulum swings with the botched COVID leadership and the George Floyd fiasco (trying to call in active military and being rebuked) adding to the momentum. Charlottesville has also not been forgotten. Rest assured, change is happening and the pressure now is as great as anything we've seen in decades (probably since Vietnam).

Edited June 7, 2020 by salparadise

[Ellener]

George Floyd's obituary is on legacy.com and his life story has been related in the Houston Chronicle.

He was loved and will be remembered overall by the people who knew him for striving to be better person and for acts of kindness, may the same be said of us all.

[Haydn]

The rate at which black Americans are killed by police is more than twice as high as the rate for white Americans. Some, may have been guilty of a minor misdemeanor (such as passing a $20 bill that may or may not have been counterfeit, but nobody knows if the person was even aware of it). One was guilty of buying a pack of cigarettes, and then opening it and trying to sell each cigarette individually to make a profit. One, was guilty of jogging. One, of walking through the wrong neighborhood. Several, of “resembling” someone else.

Dead.

Unarmed, but dead.

 

[pepperbird]

3 hours ago, Ellener said:

Yes, the protesters will make their point and go home, leaving it to a lesser number to follow through, but

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.

Margaret Mead

and that's what's so important. the people who will actually keep up the fight after everyone else has gone home .

[pepperbird]

How do other racial minorities fare when it comes to the police?I'm seeing a lot about African Americans, but not as much about other groups.

Is it more targeted at African Americans?

Also, I would like to ask why your country doesn't teach more in it's schools about African Americans  and some of the pretty amazing things some did during the 1800's? I'm not even American and I was taught about " Henry "Box" Brown and US Rep Smalls. I would think that learning people like that are in a country's history could really inspire students of any race.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, pepperbird said:

I would like to ask why your country doesn't teach more in it's schools about African Americans  and some of the pretty amazing things some did during the 1800's?

It's an interesting question. I think black history is taught more now, but for years US history was concentrated on lives of white males. 

I am a musician and constantly learning of composers who weren't included when I was younger.

 

[pepperbird]

2 minutes ago, Ellener said:

It's an interesting question. I think black history is taught more now, but for years US history was concentrated on lives of white males. 

I am a musician and constantly learning of composers who weren't included when I was younger.

 

I'm just asking because I'm not an American student, so pardon if this sounds wrong.
From what I see in mass media, etc., there is a Black History Month every year, and there is a focus on African American history and issues. I assume this is also the case in most schools.
Are these also mixed in throughout the rest of the year in the curriculum? I hope they are.

 

[Emilie Jolie]

2 minutes ago, preraph said:

Why is this one death more important than all those other deaths?  Agenda.  

No. that's because in order to address killings within the African American community, you need to address what's causing it, ie endemic poverty, lack of access to quality education and healthcare and a lot of the inequalities that were inherited by hundreds of years of segregation and racism. And that costs resources and money. Another reason why so many people are angry.