Combating Racism in America

[TheStickisback]

Here's why racism will never be truly dealt with because neither side is willing to listen. Both sides are emotional because of the internet and media. Confirmation bias causes all of us to stick to that corner that agrees with us and we seek out the things that affirm out beliefs to the point where even if our belief isn't logical will be stuck with even in the face of evidence disproving it. It's why this black man is glad to be on neither side so I can analyze everything logically.

[Libby1]

On 6/6/2020 at 10:51 PM, TheStickisback said:

Radical left lol. Actually both parties fail at improving race relations it's just a matter of whether you want to know you are being stabbed or someone stabbing you in the back

 The New York Times ran an opinion piece two days ago titled "I Don’t Need ‘Love’ Texts From My White Friends" and telling people to text relatives and loved ones "telling them you will not be visiting them or answering phone calls until they take significant action in supporting black lives either through protest or financial contributions."  

For the past few months people have been told that they must make the sacrifice of avoiding visiting loved ones in order to prevent the spread of covid-19.  Even meeting them out of doors was deemed unacceptable.  Now we're being told that attending crowded protests isn't a high risk activity, and in any event some things matter more.  Then  a highly respected publication like the NYT runs an opinion piece telling people that if those relatives who they haven't seen for months want a visit (now that rules that preventing such visits have finally been eased or removed) they should be made to attend a protest or donate to BLM.  

I don't think what's going on just now has all that much to do with improving race relations in the long term.  I think it has far more to do with fringe political groups taking advantage of people being more vulnerable and susceptible to manipulation at the moment than they would ordinarily be, due to the disorientating impact Covid-19 and the lockdown has had.  Plus the likelihood that a lot of people out there would just about vote for Stalin if that's what it took to get Trump out of the White House.

 

 

[jspice]

1 hour ago, pepperbird said:

 

Also, I would like to ask why your country doesn't teach more in it's schools about African Americans  and some of the pretty amazing things some did during the 1800's? I'm not even American and I was taught about " Henry "Box" Brown and US Rep Smalls. I would think that learning people like that are in a country's history could really inspire students of any race.

Because if they actually taught History as it actually was, the oppressors don’t come out looking so good. 

[Emilie Jolie]

23 minutes ago, TheStickisback said:

Here's why racism will never be truly dealt with because neither side is willing to listen. Both sides are emotional because of the internet and media. Confirmation bias causes all of us to stick to that corner that agrees with us and we seek out the things that affirm out beliefs to the point where even if our belief isn't logical will be stuck with even in the face of evidence disproving it. It's why this black man is glad to be on neither side so I can analyze everything logically.

I'm currently reading Morgan's American slavery, American freedom', a scholarly book as far removed from clickbait and confirmation bias as possible, about the Virginians' complex relationship to freedom and slavery. While enlightened and pretty modern for their times, the writers of the Constitution gave their white contemporaries the freedom to own slaves. Which is pretty messed up, when you think about it. No freedom without slavery. That's not an emotional stance, that's just how the USA came to be.

Personally, I don't see any 'logical', 'rational' way to address racism that does not involve any country (not just the USA) squarely stare its history in the face and simply come to terms with its worst parts, but I'm curious as to what solution to racism your logical analysis is leading you to.

[Emilie Jolie]

12 minutes ago, preraph said:

More people were employed before the epidemic than ever before.   More opportunity for everyone than ever, and we should get back to that soon.  You can't blame the past forever.  Too many successful black people out there who didn't let that stop them.  Plus we've thrown money at the problems for decades, but ultimately, it's up to the community

More Black people were affected by the pandemic, by quite a margin - partly because they most often are key workers (on low pay), partly because they can't afford healthcare, partly because they are some of the poorest groups in the country. No, you can't blame the past forever but you need to understand it in order to move on. Some aspects of it clearly are not 'the past', but still very much the present. This number of angry people can't all be wrong.

[Emilie Jolie]

Lots of things have to happen at once, in order for things to truly change. It's not just up to the African American to come up with a solution to the prejudices they say they are dealing with. It's not having a 'victim' mentality than to state your anger at a system that isn't working for you. Basically, this is not a one-way effort, it's a societal effort where all people need to meet half-way, in my opinion. 

[Emilie Jolie]

It's like a cheating spouse demanding their partner get over it and move on without even acknowledging their infidelity. Asking any abuse survivor to get an attitude change is completely off-base. Don't make it so easy for the cheater. Same thing here, times a million. It takes time to heal. The context here is African Americans, so that's what I'm talking about. Each grievance is different, but we haven't all been forced to come to a foreign land by boat and been turned into slaves for having a different skin tone, then be segregated against and brutalised in all sections of society with the Jim Cow laws only coming to an end not through kindness, but on the back of decades of civil rights movement action. 

.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[salparadise]

2 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Many people, not only BLM and Antifa, are angry at what's happened. They are allowed to be. This has transcended George Floyd now, and this has become about hundreds of years of unaddressed hurt and police brutality. Hopefully this is a genuine turning point in history.

Exactly. George Floyd's horrific public lynching ignited it, but it's about the systemic racism and brutality perpetrated and supported by government at all levels.

And for those trying to excuse or minimize wrongdoing by casting shade on the value of George Floyd's life, shame on you. George Floyd's life was as valuable as yours, mine or anyone else's. His prior arrests are completely is irrelevant, as are your attempts to cloud the issue.

A new video has been made public of a white police officer repeatedly tasing a black man who was not threatening him, and continued tasing him multiple times after he was on the ground and subdued. This was in Fairfax County, Virginia. The officer has been charged with assault and battery.

A veto-proof majority of the Minneapolis City Council has vowed to disband the city's police department.

Mayor Bill de Blasio of New York said that he would divert city funds from the New York Police Department to youth and social services.

Colin Powell: "The Country Is Wise to Trump. We’re Not Going to Put Up With Him Anymore. I cannot in any way support President Trump… I will be voting for Joe Biden,” the former Republican secretary of state said. He also said he's attempting to skirt the US Constitution. * in the context of trying to order active military to put down protests.

I believe this is a tipping point. It's time. We are supposed to be a civilized society. Governor Northam has announced that the statue of Robert E. Lee will removed from Richmond's Monument Ave. in solidarity with demands for systemic reforms.  I am proud of my 24 year old daughter who has been participating in the marches in her city. We are watching history in the making. Perhaps George Floyd didn't die in vain after all.

Edited June 7, 2020 by salparadise

[Emilie Jolie]

It's not like all it takes is a flick of a switch and all of a sudden hundreds of years of segregation have vanished into the air. The law is one thing, practice on the ground is another, and it takes generations to see concrete change in real time. That's one thing that can explain anger and frustration - things are going too slowly. I don't really know about specific demands, but I assume more transparency and better police training are likely to be top of the list since police brutality is cited as a big issue. Based on the last few days, that seems legit.Besides that,  I was always told when someone's angry, listen to what they say - sometimes, listening and acknowledging is all it takes.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[SincereOnlineGuy]

11 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

Can anyone point to any laws that discriminate against minorities here? If everyone has equal rights under law, then what is all this about? Reparations (money)? That is not such a just cause, IMO.

The underlying point to all of this (even though most of those in the streets have NO understanding of it along with NO will to admit that it's at the crux of the matter) is that minorities overlap the poor in disproportionate numbers...   and there are zillions of laws and actions of law enforcement which discriminate against the poor.  It has been that very country-long (1776 and before) exercise which has been the crux of systemic racism.

Any moron knows that Covid doesn't have a racist cell in its entire composition...    (one could have easily trumpeted in the media on January 15, 2020:   "Covid affects Asians far more than any other race!"  ---   and not then been inaccurate, by the numbers...     and those who are now trumpeting:    "Covid affects African Americans at a greater rate than anyone else!" are similarly just USING something wholly unrelated to race in order to draw attention to themselves, and to the long, unending plight of the American poor.

 

(now it IS true that the poor, on the grand scale, are caused to live closer together and spend more time near one another than are their wealthy counterparts... and of course that overlaps data which SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEMS to suggest that race is an actual factor in Covid's spread, when greater numbers of those who live quite close together test positive with Covid, and are disproportionately people of color) 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheStickisback]

1 hour ago, Emilie Jolie said:

I'm currently reading Morgan's American slavery, American freedom', a scholarly book as far removed from clickbait and confirmation bias as possible, about the Virginians' complex relationship to freedom and slavery. While enlightened and pretty modern for their times, the writers of the Constitution gave their white contemporaries the freedom to own slaves. Which is pretty messed up, when you think about it. No freedom without slavery. That's not an emotional stance, that's just how the USA came to be.

Personally, I don't see any 'logical', 'rational' way to address racism that does not involve any country (not just the USA) squarely stare its history in the face and simply come to terms with its worst parts, but I'm curious as to what solution to racism your logical analysis is leading you to.

First being honest. We all carry some bias. Then it reframing how we address issues for example what does black lives matter sound like to someone not black. Its sounds like I matter more than you all when the reality its saying our lives matter too. The thing is your intention on the message get misinterpreted due to words used. Then let's be honest about stereotypes. We tend to use blacks in cities as a representation of all of them in US which isnt an accurate depiction. Same way white republicans are seen as racists which isnt true or feminists are seen as man haters. Each individual group is diverse in opinion and experiences but until you decide to have an actual conversation without judgement or confrontation you will never get to solve the issue.

 

I remember being in high school and a teacher talked about Jim Crow. I grew up in rural NC and heard all the horror stories. A kid told this white teacher she was racist. She said I was young back then and couldn't do anything and if her or her family went against it then they had an issue in the area they lived in. For me when this woman said that it changed my view. Really people would be surprised the experiences I had because mentally we assume certain things. I knew whites that spent time with guys that were NOI and 5 Percenters and talked. The conversations were very productive and you left feeling like you gained some value to your own life. The conversations were about coming together and building

[TheStickisback]

2 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

More Black people were affected by the pandemic, by quite a margin - partly because they most often are key workers (on low pay), partly because they can't afford healthcare, partly because they are some of the poorest groups in the country. No, you can't blame the past forever but you need to understand it in order to move on. Some aspects of it clearly are not 'the past', but still very much the present. This number of angry people can't all be wrong.

Black guy here. Majority was because they didnt practice social diatancing and still did gatherings. 

[major_merrick]

From what I've read, there was definitely a disproportionate impact on the black community from COVID.  Black life expectancy, especially for men, is lower than average.  I don't totally understand why, but there's some issues there for sure. 

I know when I lived in a poor neighborhood, I experienced severe food inequality.  I had to steal to eat, and I was worse off than my black neighbors when it came to food quantity.  In terms of food quality, it was about the same.  Just try to get something fresh or healthy...it was easier to find junk food.  You'll find Dollar General and its sort on every corner, with not a fruit or a vegetable in sight. 

In the wealthiest nation in the world, anybody having to steal or beg in order to eat ought to be seen as a social crime.  I think we have a bigger poverty problem than we do a race problem, as I see poor whites, poor Hispanics, and poor blacks ending up in pretty much the same position.  And the poor are going to be disproportionately affected by things like crime and police brutality than the middle class and the wealthy. 

 

[Emilie Jolie]

1 hour ago, TheStickisback said:

We all carry some bias

Sure. Mine is that I have an issue with those who shrug off other people's concerns when it doesn't affect them, and only zoom in on the action when they are personally affected. Like say 99% of Black people say they are tired of police brutality, but they will listen to the 1% sitting on the fence or agreeing with their personal views (there is no racism in the USA, AA is anti-white. strive for success, it's all unfair on the whites, Blacks are lazy, law and order is awesome, police brutality doesn't exist, etc). Almost like you need to be the 'right' kind of Black for your voice to have any sort of value to them, and everyone else is an extremist headcase or has a victim mentality, or hasn't worked hard enough or some other inane reason.

1 hour ago, TheStickisback said:

Its sounds like I matter more than you all when the reality its saying our lives matter too

I'm not Black, and it doesn't sound like that to me at all. It just sounds like a political statement, I've never assumed BLM thought their lives mattered more. 

1 hour ago, TheStickisback said:

but until you decide to have an actual conversation without judgement or confrontation you will never get to solve the issue.

Not always true (sorry). Freedom comes from struggle - ask all those in colonised countries who fought for their independence. Sure, the conversations help change minds, and of course non-violent actions need to be prioritised, but it's a combination of conversations and true action that actually get things to change. 

1 hour ago, TheStickisback said:

For me when this woman said that it changed my view.

Did you assume all whites were racists before then? You don't need to be a racist to allow for racism to settle in the society you live in, FWIW.

As far as why Blacks are more affected by the pandemic, every single piece of research published on this so far cites being on the frontline, having health pre-existing conditions and generally being poorer as reasons for dying from the pandemic. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[TheStickisback]

43 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Sure. Mine is that I have an issue with those who shrug off other people's concerns when it doesn't affect them, and only zoom in on the action when they are personally affected. Like say 99% of Black people say they are tired of police brutality, but they will listen to the 1% sitting on the fence or agreeing with their personal views (there is no racism in the USA, AA is anti-white. strive for success, it's all unfair on the whites, Blacks are lazy, law and order is awesome, police brutality doesn't exist, etc). Almost like you need to be the 'right' kind of Black for your voice to have any sort of value to them, and everyone else is an extremist headcase or has a victim mentality, or hasn't worked hard enough or some other inane reason.

I'm not Black, and it doesn't sound like that to me at all. It just sounds like a political statement, I've never assumed BLM thought their lives mattered more. 

Not always true (sorry). Freedom comes from struggle - ask all those in colonised countries who fought for their independence. Sure, the conversations help change minds, and of course non-violent actions need to be prioritised, but it's a combination of conversations and true action that actually get things to change. 

Did you assume all whites were racists before then? You don't need to be a racist to allow for racism to settle in the society you live in, FWIW.

As far as why Blacks are more affected by the pandemic, every single piece of research published on this so far cites being on the frontline, having health pre-existing conditions and generally being poorer as reasons for dying from the pandemic. 

Have you shugged off what someone says? We all have done it. I will agree AA is anti white. Equality of outcome always cuts someone to achieve an outcome.

[TheStickisback]

The question we have to ask ourselves is this:  Is equality giving everyone the opportunity or creating a situation to have an outcome that makes great optics? The world isn't this blank slate equalism. People are different and just need to have an opportunity. Capitalism will define what practice is more effective. 

[Emilie Jolie]

3 minutes ago, TheStickisback said:

Have you shugged off what someone says?

Is disagreeing shrugging off? You can listen but disagree, I think that's actually pretty common.

7 minutes ago, TheStickisback said:

Equality of outcome

There is no such thing a equality of outcome without equality of opportunity. This is a disarmingly naive perspective to hold. 

8 minutes ago, TheStickisback said:

I will agree AA is anti white.

I don't, but i'm not surprised to see you do. Pre AA, there would have been businesses whose only Black employees were the janitor, the security guard and one 'optics' Black person - are we to assume every single Black candidate for a job at those businesses was under-qualified or incompetent? Because that would be a bit racist. Without AA, you have segregation (white or black only businesses) and a culture of structural racism.

 

[Dexterr]

At risk of sounding naive and misinformed, I would wish to ask a question from the larger crowd.. I apologise if it does not fit well with the topics at hand, I have not read through the entire thread. 

Why Was the George Floyd tragedy immediately tied with racism? Why are people mainly protesting against racism instead of police brutality? I admit, our media here in Eastern Europe is largely biased. But our newspapers etc are full of small hidden articles dug up from from the states that report senseless killings of white men/women by police officers of colour, which no one says a word about, ever. Statistically speaking, people of colour are also the ones committing most crimes and offenses. That's just unfortunate facts.

Genuine question. People here are rather "weirded out" by what is happening in the US.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Dexterr

[salparadise]

3 hours ago, Dexterr said:

Why Was the George Floyd tragedy immediately tied with racism? Why are people mainly protesting against racism instead of police brutality?

Because police brutality is disproportionately visited upon blacks, and we are all too familiar with the long history of lynchings with racism fueling the hate. It's easy to trace it through our history, and though partially muted, it's still alive today. It's true that police brutality isn't always limited to black Americans, but we know they're taking the brunt of it almost as if being black is presumed to be all the justification necessary. And, there is also a history of police being acquitted of charges brought as a result of the brutality, which obviously points to the systemic nature of the situation as opposed to the 'one bad apple' excuse that is so often floated.

Here are a couple of links, the first is about the Rodney King riots 28 years ago. This was perhaps the first example captured on video. There was no violence at the time of the event and release of the video, but it erupted when the officers were acquitted. The second is about the Minneapolis police, and their union president Bob Kroll. I think both of these demonstrate the racial nature of the hate and abuse, as opposed to general brutality as fun hobby with no group in particular as the target. Nearly 30 years have elapsed and this sh*t is still going on, and still supported by the system––the coroner's initial report did not find that Floyd died of asphyxiation, and pointed to preexisting conditions. The family commissioned a second autopsy that had no problem calling it asphyxiation, lack of blood flow to the brain––and homicide. That first autopsy was trying to leave the cause of death unclear to set up an acquittal. That is the systemic nature.

Rodney King Riots in LA 1992

Bob Kroll and the Minneapolis Police

Autopsy Bullsh*t (George Floyd)

[Weezy1973]

6 hours ago, Dexterr said:

Why Was the George Floyd tragedy immediately tied with racism? Why are people mainly protesting against racism instead of police brutality?

Racism is a prevailing concern in the US because it’s never been dealt with effectively. There’s a lot of anger around it, and in the US as well as many other parts of the world, tribalism has grown as has discord.

 

In other words, this was just the spark. The fuel has been growing for a long time. And if you think this is disquieting, wait until you see the US erupt after the next election. There will be a lot more violence than there is now.

[Emilie Jolie]

1 hour ago, salparadise said:

Because police brutality is disproportionately visited upon blacks, and we are all too familiar with the long history of lynchings with racism fueling the hate.

I'm gobbsmacked this is not more widely known - how can this be viewed as some sort of conspiracy theory? 

People act as though  police brutality, racism and poverty are what US Black community actually want for themselves, and the only thing to do to get out of it all is have 'a winning mentality'. Wtf??

[salparadise]

34 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

I'm gobbsmacked this is not more widely known - how can this be viewed as some sort of conspiracy theory? 

People act as though  police brutality, racism and poverty are what US Black community actually want for themselves, and the only thing to do to get out of it all is have 'a winning mentality'. Wtf??

If there's one thing you learn by hanging around on LS a few years, it's that things that most presume to be perfectly obvious to anyone with a few functioning synapses are simply not part of the awareness in large segments of the population.

And another thing that is tangentially related... the use of anecdotal examples by ignorant people to counter an argument, and they actually believe it makes them right! Na-na-na-na-na, gotcha didn't I. And about half the time the anecdotal examples are nothing more than their own opinion. This actually has a name––fallacy of false refutation by counterexample. I don't think an active thread ever goes more than a page or two without a bunch of lame fallacy responses. The straw man fallacy may be used dozens of times a day it seems (restates an argument to make it sound ridiculous, and then attacks the modified premise). Ugh.

Of course, attacking arguments with holes the size of the Grand Canyon is sometimes fun, but more often I wish everyone would make rational arguments and use good critical thinking. I wonder if anyone else ever thinks of participating in LS threads as being similar to a two hour wait at the DMV?

Edited June 8, 2020 by salparadise

[pepperbird]

16 hours ago, Libby1 said:

 The New York Times ran an opinion piece two days ago titled "I Don’t Need ‘Love’ Texts From My White Friends" and telling people to text relatives and loved ones "telling them you will not be visiting them or answering phone calls until they take significant action in supporting black lives either through protest or financial contributions."  

For the past few months people have been told that they must make the sacrifice of avoiding visiting loved ones in order to prevent the spread of covid-19.  Even meeting them out of doors was deemed unacceptable.  Now we're being told that attending crowded protests isn't a high risk activity, and in any event some things matter more.  Then  a highly respected publication like the NYT runs an opinion piece telling people that if those relatives who they haven't seen for months want a visit (now that rules that preventing such visits have finally been eased or removed) they should be made to attend a protest or donate to BLM.  

I don't think what's going on just now has all that much to do with improving race relations in the long term.  I think it has far more to do with fringe political groups taking advantage of people being more vulnerable and susceptible to manipulation at the moment than they would ordinarily be, due to the disorientating impact Covid-19 and the lockdown has had.  Plus the likelihood that a lot of people out there would just about vote for Stalin if that's what it took to get Trump out of the White House.

 

 how many are actually willing to do keep up the fight after others have left for home?
That's when you'll see who's really serious and who was just jumping on the bandwagon.

[Ellener]

18 hours ago, pepperbird said:

From what I see in mass media, etc., there is a Black History Month every year, and there is a focus on African American history and issues.

Yes, after a celebration in 1969 it became a deliberate policy choice from the presidency of Gerald Ford who had to try to pull together a nation in deep economic and social crisis in the 1970s, he said 'seize the opportunity to honor the too-often neglected accomplishments of Black Americans in every area of endeavor throughout our history.'

There are lots of little-known well-known facts about US black history, for example Vernon Joseph Baker did not receive his Medal of Honor ( US highest military decoration for bravery ) for actions in military service in 1945 until 1997, indeed he was the only living recipient the other six were deceased but finally awarded.It took prolonged consideration and campaign and 50 years to give people something they should have received automatically.

 

[sothereiwas]

2 hours ago, salparadise said:

Because police brutality is disproportionately visited upon blacks

This is a misrepresentation of the facts. Crimes committed by blacks are reported at a frequency that is disproportionate to population, and the police respond to those reports and interact with the suspects. Once that happens the incidence of police brutality falls more or less evenly across the set of people who are interacting with police. The way you said it makes it sound like the police are picking on black people, whereas what actually seems to be happening is that the neighbors of black people (who are often also black by the way) report black people as having committed crimes more often than for other races. Once that happens, the police have to interact with those people, and in a small percentage of those interactions subjects die. 

This chain of events is what actually happened in the George Floyd case, for example. 

Police are not just driving up and selecting black people to brutalize; they'd rather go have donuts.