Combating Racism in America

[Ellener]

14 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

I have an issue with those who shrug off other people's concerns when it doesn't affect them, and only zoom in on the action when they are personally affected.

It's human nature, sadly, we all get on with our own lives, and life can be pretty good in the US if you are not directly or indirectly affected by poverty.

The pandemic has heightened people's awareness and empathy.

[major_merrick]

1 minute ago, sothereiwas said:

Police are not just driving up and selecting black people to brutalize; they'd rather go have donuts. 

At least in my experience, police brutality is a crime of opportunity.  When a cop is mad, whoever is "there" gets the stick, especially if they can't really defend themselves.  I've got the scars to prove that even a young white girl can be a victim of police brutality.  It depends on location and timing, as well as financial status.  If you're poor and in the wrong place at the wrong time, you're gonna get it. 

Please note that a Minneapolis cop was found guilty of murdering a white woman back in 2017.  Justine Damond.  Black cop, white victim.  I don't believe we have as big a race problem in America as we do a power problem.  The left wants to keep pushing the race issue because it distracts from the real problem - government.  Someday, poor and middle class folks are going to get together regardless of ethnicity and dismantle the institution that costs us a fortune in taxes (and in other ways.)  A "common enemy" will be the best thing to bring us all together.   

[salparadise]

5 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Crimes committed by blacks are reported at a frequency that is disproportionate to population, and the police respond to those reports and interact with the suspects.

Do we know this for certain, or are we assuming that things like arrest and conviction rates and the disproportionate prison population to be causal, when they just as likely the result? If you have evidence I'd like to see it. If it's merely your perception you should say so.

[sothereiwas]

9 minutes ago, salparadise said:

Do we know this for certain, or are we assuming that things like arrest and conviction rates and the disproportionate prison population to be causal, when they just as likely the result? If you have evidence I'd like to see it. If it's merely your perception you should say so.

It's been studied, I didn't make it up. Essentially, crime reports track the demographics of the area they are reported in pretty closely, as does the demographics of the reporter. More reports are generated in areas that tend to be mostly black, on a pro-rata basis. This generates police interactions, as responding to crime reports is the actual job. The interactions sometimes go south. A white person who is in an interaction with the police is actually MORE likely to die than a black person in the same circumstance, but due to the previously mentioned factors, black people (black men actually) end up disproportionately killed by police. 

So that last part is true, the numbers don't lie, but it doesn't appear to be the police who are doing the racial selecting. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by sothereiwas
Phrasing

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, salparadise said:

Do we know this for certain, or are we assuming that things like arrest and conviction rates and the disproportionate prison population to be causal, when they just as likely the result? If you have evidence I'd like to see it. If it's merely your perception you should say so.

Pew Research Center did a detailed study on perceptions and race and crime in 2019, you can find it online.

 

 

 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, sothereiwas said:

It's been studied

Report to the United Nations on Racial Disparities in the U.S. Criminal Justice System, 2018.

'The source of such disparities is deeper and more systemic than explicit racial discrimination. The United States in effect operates two distinct criminal justice systems: one for wealthy people and another for poor people and people of color. The wealthy can access a vigorous adversary system replete with constitutional protections for defendants. Yet the experiences of poor and minority defendants within the criminal justice system often differ substantially from that model due to a number of factors, each of which contributes to the overrepresentation of such individuals in the system. As former Georgetown Law Professor David Cole states in his book No Equal Justice,

These double standards are not, of course, explicit; on the face of it, the criminal law is color-blind and class-blind. But in a sense, this only makes the problem worse. The rhetoric of the criminal justice system sends the message that our society carefully protects everyone’s constitutional rights, but in practice the rules assure that law enforcement prerogatives will generally prevail over the rights of minorities and the poor. By affording criminal suspects substantial constitutional rights in theory, the Supreme Court validates the results of the criminal justice system as fair. That formal fairness obscures the systemic concerns that ought to be raised by the fact that the prison population is overwhelmingly poor and disproportionately black.'

 

[Emilie Jolie]

35 minutes ago, Ellener said:

It's human nature, sadly, we all get on with our own lives, and life can be pretty good in the US if you are not directly or indirectly affected by poverty.

The pandemic has heightened people's awareness and empathy.

Has it? At this point it's not even about empathy, it's about coming face-to-face with your history. The level of denial is breathtaking.

It's funny to see the same posters laying into someone who committed adultery right and proper like they were the scum of the earth, a leopard never changes its spots, looking at someone's history is the best way to predict future behaviours, etc.  you know the classics. Yet they dismiss mistreatment and wrongdoings on an industrial scale (slavery, Jim Crow, Vietnam, Iraq, constant meddling in other countries, etc), plenty in their f***ing lifetime, in real time, right now, and dismiss it without a second glance. Incomprehensible.

46 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

The left wants to keep pushing the race issue because it distracts from the real problem - government. 

It's not a 'the left' thing. Black people are rightly pissed off at how they are treated; let them have their moment. They have been affected by poverty and hardships in a way that whites haven't, let's not pretend racism doesn't exist. How awesome that they are the ones leading the momentum for change at this moment. 

 

[Ellener]

I don't think it's fair to make 'my personal experience' into a 'so therefore...'

But I will say I never hear anyone saying 'what do you expect, he's white'...and if ever that becomes a social norm I'll have something to say about that too.

Everything's always about empathy @Emilie Jolie where people are concerned: 'you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view,'  to quote Star Wars ( and Joseph Campbell )

 

 

[major_merrick]

2 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

They have been affected by poverty and hardships in a way that whites haven't, let's not pretend racism doesn't exist.

Right there is the part of this whole thing that I disagree with.  Especially given my upbringing in poverty and hardship, a blanket statement like that just comes across as offensive.  I know that many black folks have suffered from food inequality, lack of opportunity, substance problems, and assault by police.  Those things were all part of MY reality too, and damn near killed me. 

So yeah, it becomes a media/leftist thing.  The left wants to set off racial conflict in the name of fighting racism because it will lead to greater government control.  That's not the way we're going to fight racism effectively, it will actually create more of it.  Shouting about "privilege" of one type or another is confrontational.  Making assertions that other folks don't suffer is confrontational.  The result is that you'll get negative and even violent reactions....which then plays into the government's hand.   

Racism will end when people of all groups figure out that we have a common enemy.  "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."  When will people FINALLY see the man behind the curtain?   

[Emilie Jolie]

19 minutes ago, Ellener said:

I don't think it's fair to make 'my personal experience' into a 'so therefore...'

But I will say I never hear anyone saying 'what do you expect, he's white'...and if ever that becomes a social norm I'll have something to say about that too.

Everything's always about empathy @Emilie Jolie where people are concerned: 'you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view,'  to quote Star Wars ( and Joseph Campbell )

 

 

Yeah, 'what do you expect' and 'I can't be racist, my best friend's second cousin removed is Black' are up there on the lowkey casual racism register.

On empathy - yes, ideally, of course (great quote - love Star Wars)

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, Emilie Jolie said:

On empathy - yes, ideally, of course (great quote - love Star Wars)

I'm an idealist it's true; some of us should be I think. 😃

 

[Emilie Jolie]

45 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

Right there is the part of this whole thing that I disagree with.  Especially given my upbringing in poverty and hardship, a blanket statement like that just comes across as offensive.  I know that many black folks have suffered from food inequality, lack of opportunity, substance problems, and assault by police.  Those things were all part of MY reality too, and damn near killed me. 

So yeah, it becomes a media/leftist thing.  The left wants to set off racial conflict in the name of fighting racism because it will lead to greater government control.  That's not the way we're going to fight racism effectively, it will actually create more of it.  Shouting about "privilege" of one type or another is confrontational.  Making assertions that other folks don't suffer is confrontational.  The result is that you'll get negative and even violent reactions....which then plays into the government's hand.   

Racism will end when people of all groups figure out that we have a common enemy.  "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."  When will people FINALLY see the man behind the curtain?   

People keep voting against their own long-term interests. Not new. 'The government', 'the system', call it what you want, works for a select few and their handy bootlickers, yes we know. But an individual's experience is not a whole community's experience, however bad it is. This is not a competition. If you're denying African Americans their chance to deal with their own demons / massive scale PTSD now, when a ton of people (not leftists, people) are still angry about it, you are not helping build that unified voice you think is necessary to tear down 'the system'. Sure there are outlier Black voices who think everyone should 'move on' already, but the streets of your country tell a different story.

Personally, I think 2020 is too soon to effect change anyway. The next POTUS, be it DT or Biden, won't change the direction of travel.

The end of this system rooted in inequalities of all forms and racial hierarchies will come from a leader originated from the grassroots - you need top/bottom, and bottom/top movement. If the African Americans are willing to start this, let them.

[Weezy1973]

I’m of the feeling that the problems we see in the black population are in fact a result of mostly historical racism and less about current racism. Not to say racism doesn’t exist today - clearly it does. It’s just relegated for the most part to basementS and online message boards.

The US has a history however that hasn’t been undone. It has to start with the acknowledgement that it’s an issue, and that seems surprisingly difficult for many. 

[Libby1]

24 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Humour is subjective, that's one thing people will never all have a consensus about.

I do hear you though, discussed with a friend this am the plethora of emotions this week we both have....fortunately we have the same irreverent style of humour, it's a big connection between people too.

I'm glad you said that, Ellener, because I was looking for a post to hook on to.  BLM talks about the need for people to educate eachother about racism and how people can experience the same thing very differently based on their colour.  I remember watching Get Out, and there's a bit near the end where what looks like a police car comes along.  As a white woman I'd be thinking "thank God, the police are here to rescue me" in that situation, but because you're watching through the eyes of a black man...you see what you think is a police car, and your stomach immediately plummets in dread.

Key & Peele...one of the funniest double acts ever.  Unfortunately they're not very well known in the UK, but I'm always trying to get friends into them.  They obviously include a lot of messages about racism into their sketches. So you get a lot of the messages that you'd get if you were being educated by an activist, but instead of being preached at, you're actually enjoying yourself and being entertained...so you connect with the these people who are giving you messages about what it means to be black in the US, which makes the message far more effective.  Same thing with old Dave Chappelle routines,  Chris Rock...it's not preachy, it's incisive and funny...and the message hits home.  I'm not saying that watching comedy is all a person needs to do, but I think do think comedy is often a good starting point for people to explore issues in a bit more depth.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

The US has a history however that hasn’t been undone.

Spike Lee said last week 

'The land was stolen from native people, genocide was committed against the native people, and ancestors were stolen from Africa and brought here to work.

So the foundation of the United States of America is genocide, stealing land and slavery.

Any architect will tell you that if you don't have a strong foundation, the building's going to be shaky, and shaky from day one... This original sin has not been dealt with since the birth of this country.'

That reminded me of Matthew 7, so I looked it up, that's a powerful chapter of bible wisdom. I hadn't thought about it in real life application so much, just 'Sunday School'...

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, Libby1 said:

comedy is often a good starting point for people to explore issues in a bit more depth.

One of my friends started his RE career teaching kids in London via 'The Simpsons', I remember at the time thinking blimey, hope he doesn't lose his job, but he's head of a school now 

[Emilie Jolie]

46 minutes ago, Ellener said:

fortunately we have the same irreverent style of humour, it's a big connection between people too.

People hide a plethora of sins under a so-called 'irreverent' sense of humour, though. Not everyone is a consumate professional comedian, you need to be able to read the room too. I've known people to pass their dodgy views off as 'only a bit of fun', and that's one way casual racism survives.

 

[preraph]

I loved the Chris Rock video that was going around the time of Sandra Bland.  

[schlumpy]

51 minutes ago, Libby1 said:

Key & Peele...one of the funniest double acts ever.  

Thanks Libby. I watched the one where they couldn't get him to sit in the chair.

I have a lot of laughing to do in the future.

Edited June 8, 2020 by schlumpy

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, schlumpy said:

I survived President Obama's two terms. I will survive Joe Biden's tenure.

And I've survived a Bush and Trump so far! I did at least finally get health care after several years without, when PPACA passed, and the CARES Act has meant I'm weathering the pandemic, hopefully HEROES Act will be some help to my rebuilding afterwards. 

We all need political leadership and agendas which benefit us, at least some of the time. 

 

 

[pepperbird]

8 hours ago, major_merrick said:

At least in my experience, police brutality is a crime of opportunity.  When a cop is mad, whoever is "there" gets the stick, especially if they can't really defend themselves.  I've got the scars to prove that even a young white girl can be a victim of police brutality.  It depends on location and timing, as well as financial status.  If you're poor and in the wrong place at the wrong time, you're gonna get it. 

Please note that a Minneapolis cop was found guilty of murdering a white woman back in 2017.  Justine Damond.  Black cop, white victim.  I don't believe we have as big a race problem in America as we do a power problem.  The left wants to keep pushing the race issue because it distracts from the real problem - government.  Someday, poor and middle class folks are going to get together regardless of ethnicity and dismantle the institution that costs us a fortune in taxes (and in other ways.)  A "common enemy" will be the best thing to bring us all together.   

there's other reasons too.
our son is autistic and basically nonverbal, especially when he's nervous or scared. We gave him a card to put in his wallet that explains that that he can hopefully give to the police if he's ever arrested. We've also spoken to our local p;police and made them aware.
Police have a pretty poor record when it comes to dealing with autistics.
 

[major_merrick]

@pepperbird  You are definitely correct about folks with autism or other issues being picked on or killed by police.  People who don't speak English are also at risk, which was my experience.  I was young, and the cop scared me, and I didn't have good enough language skills to communicate.  I got choked and had my head repeatedly slammed into the pavement.  Not an experience I'd wish on anybody, let alone someone who has already been dealt a bad hand in life. 

[Ellener]

2 hours ago, enigma32 said:

racism is the assumed reason for literally everything. 

No I don't think so, it can be any kind of prejudice, hatred, belligerence or ignorance, racism definately doesn't have the monopoly on bigotry.

 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, enigma32 said:

it is impossible to do your job according to the manual,

but there is no way to feed that back to the hierarchy without being called weak or a trouble-maker. Or being sent for more useless training devised or taught by people who have never done the job.

We had a phrase for it in social services years ago, 'lost your bottle' which meant the worker could no longer cope with the state of nervous energy and high adrenalin which the work called for.

It's a challenge and a wonderful feeling at first, but even if you got good at the job within the parameters it was always disappointing because within a couple of years there would be a new hierarchy or change of direction, sometimes even pulling apart or disparaging everything which went before.

I was very good at social work and probation service work, and numerous things since, but adrenalin is no longer my friend and has caused me numerous health problems in the last decade.

I went to work at a church once, I'm a musician now, and saw a plaque for fundraising for a church organ thrown on the ground during a shake-up, I had them dust it off and put it back because it was clearly important work at one time and some of the people were still there and their work should be acknowledged even when priorities have changed so there is no longer a church organ. They are not going to talk to you about fundraising or music again if you disparage or disrespect their work from the past.

My point is- time marches on and things change. Whether we change with it- up to us. 'I was wrong', 'I didn't know', 'I am hurt' is hard to say whether we need to hear or be the one speaking.

Everyone needs to be heard to make progress, and only so many people can or will be heard in the hierarchy of officialdom.

That's why it's so important to support people and be kind, even if it doesn't seem relevant, as in maybe I am the only person to hear that story, to acknowledge that person.

Most people aren't asking for much, just a little bit of what's their due.

[Emilie Jolie]

9 hours ago, schlumpy said:

No. I am not afraid.

So what 'hidden agenda' and 'narrative' were you talking about? Why were you saying you were being misinformed?

It's a shame no African American who has been taking part in the protests, or one of the millions who support them, is here on LS explaining their point of view. The overwhelming majority of the Black community sees racism in the USA - not that everybody is racist, but that racism still is alive and well. I've been, and I saw it.

But the white majority of LS has decided the USA can't be racist, because of white poverty, lootings, Obama and autism, and the tiny outlier Black voices that agree with them are the only Black voices worth hearing, and the only way they are willing to engage with their history is if Dave Chappelle or Kevin Hart makes them laugh in the process because their soft sensitivities can't take it any other way.

On the other hand, maybe some of them are reading this thread, shaking their heads in disbelief and wanting no part in this 'discussion' that isn't one.