Combating Racism in America

[schlumpy]

4 hours ago, Ellener said:

but there is no way to feed that back to the hierarchy without being called weak or a trouble-maker. Or being sent for more useless training devised or taught by people who have never done the job.

We had a phrase for it in social services years ago, 'lost your bottle' which meant the worker could no longer cope with the state of nervous energy and high adrenalin which the work called for.

It's a challenge and a wonderful feeling at first, but even if you got good at the job within the parameters it was always disappointing because within a couple of years there would be a new hierarchy or change of direction, sometimes even pulling apart or disparaging everything which went before.

I was very good at social work and probation service work, and numerous things since, but adrenalin is no longer my friend and has caused me numerous health problems in the last decade.

I went to work at a church once, I'm a musician now, and saw a plaque for fundraising for a church organ thrown on the ground during a shake-up, I had them dust it off and put it back because it was clearly important work at one time and some of the people were still there and their work should be acknowledged even when priorities have changed so there is no longer a church organ. They are not going to talk to you about fundraising or music again if you disparage or disrespect their work from the past.

My point is- time marches on and things change. Whether we change with it- up to us. 'I was wrong', 'I didn't know', 'I am hurt' is hard to say whether we need to hear or be the one speaking.

Everyone needs to be heard to make progress, and only so many people can or will be heard in the hierarchy of officialdom.

That's why it's so important to support people and be kind, even if it doesn't seem relevant, as in maybe I am the only person to hear that story, to acknowledge that person.

Most people aren't asking for much, just a little bit of what's their due.

Very thoughtful points Ellener, and I agree with all except that it has not been my experience that kindness is the universal prescription. I've run into people who's life philosophy is "If you can beat me up, then I'll do what you say." I have found that treating those people with kindness leaves you labeled a gullible fool. It's a small percentage but they are like a catalyst in that only a few can complete the reaction.

[Emilie Jolie]

@lana-banana, I meant it as no African Americans who went to or supported the current actions have felt safe about posting their point of view in depth here. I saw a couple of posts from posters who dipped a toe, saw the general mood of the thread and left. I also didn't mean to say there is no support from non-Black Americans on this thread, obviously. Just so there is no misunderstanding :).

[lana-banana]

Just now, Emilie Jolie said:

@lana-banana, I meant it as no African Americans who went to or supported the current actions have felt safe about posting their point of view in depth here. I saw a couple of posts from posters who dipped a toe, saw the general mood of the thread and left. I also didn't mean to say there is no support from non-Black Americans on this thread, obviously. Just so there is no misunderstanding :).

Oh no---I wasn't addressing you at all here. I was addressing another post that seemed to suggest a simple premise like "we're all racist" was somehow cultish.

I want to thank you for the incredible work you are doing on this thread. I have had tons of productive conversations on race in my life, even with my 74-year-old parents, but this place is something else. I have tried explaining that white privilege doesn't mean life isn't hard, it's just that your skin color isn't the reason why your life is hard, to no avail. No one shows any interest in reading much less discussing any of the many, many things to read on the subject. Not only do posters here deny the essential equality of all people, but the idea of compassion and humanity for our neighbors is somehow something worthy of mockery. It's not just bigoted, it's incredibly mean-spirited. 

You are fully correct about the situation here and I salute you for trying so hard. It should not be up to you to convince anyone that racism exists and is bad, yet here we are. I can say a lot and discuss a lot, but if someone is hateful enough to believe some races are better than others, I'm out.

[homecoming]

24 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

@lana-banana, I meant it as no African Americans who went to or supported the current actions have felt safe about posting their point of view in depth here. I saw a couple of posts from posters who dipped a toe, saw the general mood of the thread and left. I also didn't mean to say there is no support from non-Black Americans on this thread, obviously. Just so there is no misunderstanding :).

Pretty much. I'm from the UK, but my family reside in DC and Florida, so I hear about their experiences. 

It's hard to comment in places like this, I've had my posts taken down a few times, while others have had their vitriolic speeches left up. I feel like voices of black people are forever being silenced.

[Emilie Jolie]

12 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

Oh no---I wasn't addressing you at all here. I was addressing another post that seemed to suggest a simple premise like "we're all racist" was somehow cultish.

 

Phew - I saw your angry emoji and thought best clear any misunderstandings :)

Yeah, I'm finding it this thread puzzling, but I actually think it's a fair representation of the 'silent majority' who act all respectably in real life, but lay their real thoughts out on here. Interesting read for sure, for lack of a better word. Continue doing what you do - I have the luxury of looking at it from the outside (though the UK is not far off, truthfully), but you guys have to live this day in day out. That can't be easy...

[Paul]

Welcome back,

This thread originated from within a narrower conversation on US and international protests following the murder of George Floyd. As with that discussion, this too has been a polarizing topic for the community. Approximately 40% of the posts originally appearing in this thread have been removed for failing to maintain the community standards of civility and respect we expect of our participants (or for responding to those removed postings). As such, some quotations may point to posts that no longer appear in the discussion.

Intolerance, bigotry, and racism are antithetical to civility and respect. As I wrote in my message to the community on the racist comments and undertones that found themselves in this and other discussions in the wake of George Floyd's murder, oppression takes on many forms, and many contexts, and often is invisible to those who have the luxury to not be a target. Here, we expect that the community will remain cognizant that one's personal experience is not the definitive human experience that can be safely applied to anyone else. This is a community where we expect that you will actively listen, engage to learn, and empathetically respond, and it is ever important that we remind ourselves of those expectations as we continue this discussion.

Best,
Paul

[NuevoYorko]

On 6/9/2020 at 1:13 AM, Emilie Jolie said:

 

On the other hand, maybe some of them are reading this thread, shaking their heads in disbelief and wanting no part in this 'discussion' that isn't one.

It's actually not a worthwhile place to engage on the topic, or it hasn't been.   Seems to be a microcosm of how racism is in the USA.  A black person  (or anyone really) who wants to talk about racism is wasting their time if they are talking to a group which refutes its existence.   

 

[Emilie Jolie]

10 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

It's actually not a worthwhile place to engage on the topic, or it hasn't been.   Seems to be a microcosm of how racism is in the USA.  A black person  (or anyone really) who wants to talk about racism is wasting their time if they are talking to a group which refutes its existence.   

 

I see what you mean. When millions of people are marching on the streets of Minneapolis, or London, or Paris in anger and frustration, asking to be heard, they want an arm around their shoulder and for us to unreservedly tell them 'yes, of course, your lives absolutely matter, no question, no debate', you don't turn around and say 'yeah ok maybe racism exists a little bit but what about me and my problems, it was ages ago,there's nothing we can do about it anyway, we all have it hard, suck it up, work harder, stop being a single mom, study harder, be like Samuel L Jackson and it'll all work itself out'. 

How much of it is unconscious and how much of it is ingrained, and how much can be changed? Would be interesting to know. I have found suggestions that the Black community doesn't do enough to lift themselves out of poverty despite a lot of tax dollars being 'invested' for this purpose (?)to be really, really problematic, for instance; is this a popular political argument?

 

[Paul]

1 minute ago, NuevoYorko said:

It's actually not a worthwhile place to engage on the topic, or it hasn't been.   Seems to be a microcosm of how racism is in the USA.  A black person  (or anyone really) who wants to talk about racism is wasting their time if they are talking to a group which refutes its existence.   

 

As we move forward in this discussion, it's important to understand that intolerance is something that can both exist for some and be invisible to others. The challenge to the community moving forward is to listen and find ways to share your own personal truths, questions, and considerations with an open mind and heart and actively aware that it takes great effort, purpose, and energy to consider the world and how it looks from the perspectives of those that don't share our time, space, education, groups, and identities.

Our visceral reactions may be to state our thoughts as truth, and to actively seek ideas that reinforce our beliefs and bias, or receive indirectly confirmations through that in which we are and have been surrounded. Yet, I think it's important that we all give ourselves the individual respect and love we deserve and we give to others the individual love and respect they deserve by looking toward people that feel differently from us and try to understand things from vantage points other than our own. It is utterly nonsensical to think that because something does not look a certain way to you, that anyone who sees it differently is wrong.

Understanding someone and seeing something from another person's perspective does not at all mean that we agree with them, or that we condone them, or that we justify their actions/inactions, and/or excuse them. Feeling passionate about something and sharing what we believe does not give us the authority to use disparaging or berating terms to describe other human beings, or encourage the use of violence, or the promulgation of hate based on perceived injustices. We can understand and see things from perspectives that are completely foreign to ourselves or in radical opposition to what we believe. We feel strongly about these topics. We feel strongly about these labels. We feel strongly about our own identities and how others perceive us. We feel forced to confront things about ourselves and others that stretch our zones of comfort. And when we feel these things, it's easier to react. A lot of reacting happened here, and statements were made that were full of hostility and vitriol as a result.

To have a meaningful conversation, we must fight back against reacting and take the time and effort necessary to challenge ourselves to stand in someone else's footsteps, seeing the world from their eyes, and starting the conversation with the understanding that we stand in a place and see things from a perspective where others do not. That is simply a part of the human condition. We must recognize that we're hardly ever getting a complete picture, and we're harming ourselves and our ability to grow by failing to allow ourselves the freedom to safely explore the perspective of others.

We must respond with the intention to learn and with the reception to hear.

[homecoming]

I'd like to share this video. Robin DiAngelo is a white woman who admits that she has ingrained racial bias', and discusses the various ways in which white people react to PoC. 

I'm not sharing this to be inflammatory, but it is a very interesting watch. I was first shown this video about a year ago by my university lecturers, and I found it fascinating. It doesn't attack anyone, and it isn't preachy - in fact, it's quite humorous. 

Robin DiAngelo is a great writer, although I know some won't agree. Anyway - for those who do watch, hope you find it interesting. 

[sothereiwas]

4 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

A black person  (or anyone really) who wants to talk about racism is wasting their time if they are talking to a group which refutes its existence.   

I don't think anyone in this thread, and few in general, would contend racism doesn't exist. Can we lay that one to rest now?

[Weezy1973]

25 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

I don't think anyone in this thread, and few in general, would contend racism doesn't exist. Can we lay that one to rest now?

I think there’s quite a bit of denial or likely just ignorance though as to the impact it has on people’s lives. You can easily see the differences in poverty rates, substance abuse, wealth etc. between black people and white people, but many seem to deny that racism is one of the causes. 

[sothereiwas]

11 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

I think there’s quite a bit of denial or likely just ignorance though as to the impact it has on people’s lives. You can easily see the differences in poverty rates

Well let's see what we can drill into for that one first. BlackDemographics.com has this to say among other things: 

"Poverty rates for Black families vary based on the family type. While 23% of all Black families live below the poverty level only 8% of Black married couple families live in poverty which is considerably lower than the 37% of Black families headed by single women who live below the poverty line. The highest poverty rates (46%) are for Black families with children which are headed by single Black women. This is significant considering more than half (55%) of all Black families with children are headed by single women."

I think I see a possible way to improve things here. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by sothereiwas

[amaysngrace]

Interesting @sothereiwas

What I find even more interesting is the policies put into place by Bill Clinton that disproportionately impacted black men specifically that led to their incarceration.  

It’s tough to be home and a family man when you’re sitting in jail. 

[sothereiwas]

2 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

Interesting @sothereiwas

What I find even more interesting is the policies put into place by Bill Clinton that disproportionately impacted black men specifically that led to their incarceration.  

It’s tough to be home and a family man when you’re sitting in jail. 

I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to, but the laws I'm aware of are essentially substance laws. We shouldn't be telling adults what they can and cannot do with their own bodies. The substances that are said to be more popular in minority populations are reputed to carry heavier sentences. None of them should be illegal IMO. 

[SincereOnlineGuy]

5 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

the laws I'm aware of are essentially substance laws. We shouldn't be telling adults what they can and cannot do with their own bodies. The substances that are said to be more popular in minority populations are reputed to carry heavier sentences. None of them should be illegal IMO. 

OK, how does "law" have anything to do with what you are aware of, or what you feel we should, or shouldn't do?

 

There is way too much of that irrelevant personal take applied as part of law enforcement  in 2020 U.S. society, and that's the problem at its core, most visibly where it concerns race.

 

As everyone knows, you can't be any part of a solution until you cease to be the problem.

 

 

[schlumpy]

12 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

Interesting @sothereiwas

What I find even more interesting is the policies put into place by Bill Clinton that disproportionately impacted black men specifically that led to their incarceration.  

It’s tough to be home and a family man when you’re sitting in jail. 

I have to defend President Clinton. The bill you are referring to The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 did have penalties for substance abuse that hit the Black community very hard.

It was my understanding that this bill was pushed by the Black Caucus in effort to lower crime in the black community.

It was well meaning.

[amaysngrace]

8 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

I have to defend President Clinton. The bill you are referring to The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 did have penalties for substance abuse that hit the Black community very hard.

It was my understanding that this bill was pushed by the Black Caucus in effort to lower crime in the black community.

It was well meaning.

No, the black caucus asked for specific provisions for protections but they went ignored. 

[schlumpy]

1 minute ago, amaysngrace said:

No, the black caucus asked for specific provisions for protections but they went ignored. 

OK. I stand corrected. I tried do some quick research on that but couldn't find the reference I needed. Had to rely on the old faulty memory.

[sothereiwas]

15 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

The bill you are referring to The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994

The only good thing I know of to come out of that was the backlash that saw a bunch of Dem congress-critters fail to get re elected. 

[Weezy1973]

17 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

Well let's see what we can drill into for that one first. BlackDemographics.com has this to say among other things: 

"Poverty rates for Black families vary based on the family type. While 23% of all Black families live below the poverty level only 8% of Black married couple families live in poverty which is considerably lower than the 37% of Black families headed by single women who live below the poverty line. The highest poverty rates (46%) are for Black families with children which are headed by single Black women. This is significant considering more than half (55%) of all Black families with children are headed by single women."

I think I see a possible way to improve things here. 

@sothereiwas you’re doing the same thing over and over again. You’re showing some of the reasons why people are poor, but not explaining the discrepancy between white people and black people. You’re just saying poor people vs not poor people.

And you haven’t even touched on the wealth gap. White people on average are 10x wealthier than black people. 
 

If you were to take a guess, do you think descendants of slave owners are wealthier? Or do you think descendants of slaves are wealthier?

[sothereiwas]

1 minute ago, Weezy1973 said:

You’re showing some of the reasons why people are poor

Good news! The factor I cited is something that's within the control of each individual, at no price. 

 

1 minute ago, Weezy1973 said:

If you were to take a guess, do you think descendants of slave owners are wealthier?

Assuming all white people are descended from slave owners and all black people are descended from slaves is not a rational assumption. Thinking that way seems a little racist actually.

[Weezy1973]

21 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Assuming all white people are descended from slave owners and all black people are descended from slaves is not a rational assumption. Thinking that way seems a little racist actually.

I wasn’t assuming that. Just that a percentage are, and asking of those which do you think are wealthier?

[sothereiwas]

1 minute ago, Weezy1973 said:

I wasn’t assuming that. Just that a percentage are, and asking of those which do you think are wealthier?

I wouldn't dare to assume, it seems possible that the years around 1861 to 1865 might have seen a change in a lot of fortunes generally speaking, but that's a guess. 

[NuevoYorko]

19 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

I don't think anyone in this thread, and few in general, would contend racism doesn't exist. Can we lay that one to rest now?

This is interesting.  In response to my comment about discussing racism with people who deny that there is racism,  you post that no one here believes that racism does not exist - and that "we" (as in I, myself) should just forget about the idea.    

Let me phrase it another way:  If I want to talk about racism in the USA, and I am talking with a group of people who  respond to examples of racism with either justification of racist behaviors / systems,  denial that the behavior / systems under discussion ARE racist, or deflect to political slams, and who all back each other up in this  - I am not using my time very well.

There were some compelling examples of what I am talking about here, which have since been removed. 

Believe me, I have no delusions of swaying people to my point of view.  I am very interested in having conversations about racism with people who I perceive as having a perspective coming from racial bias; I believe that they can be productive.  My understanding is that we have a thread here for that specific purpose.