Combating Racism in America

[preraph]

I'm not trying to make a counter argument about slavery in the United States. I'm saying the slaves we ended up with were sold by their own people into slavery, which is well-known history. It doesn't make slave owners any less guilty. 

[Weezy1973]

15 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

Over 100 years ago, slavery was abolished in the USA. Slavery was bad and most slave owners were white. We GET it. None of us were around back then. Not even my grandfather was around back then, and that guy died before I was born. I won't deny that it happened, but I will deny that I got anything to do with any of those people. Are we to be held accountable for what those slave owners did, because we happen to also have white skin? Legit question. 

Was your grandfather around during segregation. Part of the difficulty is that people get so defensive. So you’re defending yourself because you don’t hate black people or think white people are superior.

But denying that historical racism has impacted Black Americans is the problem.

[Weezy1973]

45 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

Are we to be held accountable for what those slave owners did, because we happen to also have white skin? Legit question. 

Sorry, I thought the answer was implied.

No, you’re not accountable for what those slave owners did. But if you can’t acknowledge that what those slave owners did has effected black people through generations to the present, you’re accountable for that. 

[Miss Spider]

150 years  doesn’t even seem that long though... like 2 human being lifespans... to have used a group of people as SLAVES? Not to mention only a little over 60 years ago we had involuntary segregation and black peoples having to sit at the back on the bus. And only a little over 50 years ago, interracial marriage was made fully illegal...my parents are way older than that... time goes by fast, that’s  not a long time and it has a big impact on a people,,,, 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[Libby1]

5 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Sorry, I thought the answer was implied.

No, you’re not accountable for what those slave owners did. But if you can’t acknowledge that what those slave owners did has effected black people through generations to the present, you’re accountable for that. 

I wonder if Enigma is thinking specifically about calls for reparations.  When a billionaire (Robert Johnson, co-founder of Black Entertainment Television) is calling for the main consumers of his product to be enriched by the public purse to the tune of trillions of dollars, it tends to muddy the waters considerably.  It's a lot harder to have good faith discussions about societal problems when there are billionaires hovering around in the shadows prodding away for outcomes that will benefit them considerably.

I wonder what the long game here is.  Because there's little doubt that various actors (in the media, at protests...) have participated in inflaming public anger about George Floyd's murder into the current situation where the US is in a state of serious civil unrest.  Is it purely and simply to create a society where black people (especially young black men) can walk down the street without being unduly harassed by officious police officers who assume they're up to no good because they're black?  Or is there also an intention to use the current unrest in the US to, in the longer term, push for massive reparations to be paid to anybody who can prove they are descended from black slaves in the US?  

I know these aren't nice questions to ask, but in the circumstances they do seem like reasonable ones.

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Libby1

[Emilie Jolie]

On the history of freedom, racism and slavery, Edmund Morgan's 'American Slavery, American Freedom: The Ordeal of Colonial Virginia' is great. I had it recommended to me by an American friend I asked for advice on good resources to understand the background of the current situation.

Morgan was Emeritus Professor of History at Yale, and he clearly knew his stuff.

He called it 'the central paradox of American history'. No freedom without slavery, basically.

This is the preface

Quote

Human relations among us still suffer from the former enslavement of a large portion of our predecessors. The freedom of the free, the growth of freedom experienced in the American Revolution depended more than we like to admit on the enslavement of more than 20 percent of us at that time. How republican freedom came to be supported, at least in large part, by its opposite, slavery, is the subject of this book.

I've only just started reading it so haven't delved into the details just yet, but it looks promising.

[some_username1]

14 hours ago, lana-banana said:

If you don't believe simply being white confers immense benefits and privileges that people of color don't receive, then you don't get it and you don't want to get it, period. You can insist to the contrary all you want but you're still wrong. 

It’s an advantage for sure, but “immense”? That depends on your background and upbringing.

I always feel like the biggest idiot in the room when this comes up and I curse myself for not using this mystical privilege I have to better effect because there are innumerable non-white people out there who have more advantage in life than I will ever have.

Imo race is a distraction, class is the biggest handicap people face and all the signs are there that in countries like America and Britain social mobility out of poverty for the poor of all skin colour is becoming harder and harder.

[lana-banana]

29 minutes ago, some_username1 said:

It’s an advantage for sure, but “immense”? That depends on your background and upbringing.

I always feel like the biggest idiot in the room when this comes up and I curse myself for not using this mystical privilege I have to better effect because there are innumerable non-white people out there who have more advantage in life than I will ever have.

Imo race is a distraction, class is the biggest handicap people face and all the signs are there that in countries like America and Britain social mobility out of poverty for the poor of all skin colour is becoming harder and harder.

Nobody would deny that class is an enormous issue, and mitigates some elements of privilege, but it also exacerbates them, too. Wealthy Black people may have some advantages (provided by money) that poor whites don't have, but the difference between poor white and black communities and individual experiences is astronomical. Someone who was poor and white is still figurative miles ahead, in terms of life advantages, than a poor black counterpart.

It really is immense. It is getting job interviews (study after study has shown people reject "black-sounding" names on resumes in favor of "white-sounding" names even with identical qualifications), it is going to stores and not being treated as a shoplifter, it is walking without people crossing the street to avoid you, it is assuming social interactions will be minimally polite vs hostile, it is not having to prove yourself as an upstanding member of society every hour of every day, it is getting a mortgage or new car without extra burdens, it is going for a run without fear for your life, it is going birdwatching without white women shrieking that they'll call the police on you, it is not wondering if this is the end when you get pulled over by the cops. The threat of harm and violence and even death is ever-present, on top of just trying to get by in a society that was built on enslaving you and designed to exclude you.

The benefit you have as a white person, being not only the "default" but also considered the "ideal", is immense no matter how much money you have. I know a lot of white guys would like to think they've earned everything in their lives, but any reasonable person knows that they just had a lot of advantages.

 

[elaine567]

22 minutes ago, some_username1 said:

Imo race is a distraction, class is the biggest handicap people face and all the signs are there that in countries like America and Britain social mobility out of poverty for the poor of all skin colour is becoming harder and harder.

And well displayed on a radio phone in this week by the experiences of two young black men who phoned in.
One said he had never had any trouble with the police, they were always nice to him.
Once he was caught speeding at over 100mph  on the motorway and the police  were polite and basically told him, don't do it again...
The other was stopped by the police when he and two friends were just driving to work, police were brusque and basically did a stop and search...
He did say they were three big guys, so perhaps police were just wary...
BUT
Despite both being well educated guys with good jobs, the first one  had a "well spoken" British accent, not posh but nice,
and the other had more of an inner city London "black" working class accent.
The police obviously made a snap decision based on perceived "class" as to which one was the likeliest criminal. 
 

[Gr8fuln2020]

8 hours ago, preraph said:

I'm not trying to make a counter argument about slavery in the United States. I'm saying the slaves we ended up with were sold by their own people into slavery, which is well-known history. It doesn't make slave owners any less guilty. 

I am well aware of how competing, adversarial peoples were complicit in helping Europeans advance slavery. Just be aware, people who typically try to minimize the slave trade and especially the impact and brutality of it, will use the "but black people sold their own people garbage." Also notice how you used the term their OWN people. You seem to be lumping all Africans in the same group. Make no mistake, slavery by conquest was all too common in the old world. Africa, Asia, Europe, for long periods of their history enslaved human beings. As you should know, this inter-racial exchange of human resources was also known to exist in Europe. I suppose they sold their own people too. 

The European slavers took advantage of this pre-existing situations and traded goods to obtain the workers they needed to be transported to the new world. The slavery in the USA, for which this thread directly relates to, was a whole different animal. 

[Gr8fuln2020]

1 hour ago, some_username1 said:

It’s an advantage for sure, but “immense”? That depends on your background and upbringing.

I always feel like the biggest idiot in the room when this comes up and I curse myself for not using this mystical privilege I have to better effect because there are innumerable non-white people out there who have more advantage in life than I will ever have.

Imo race is a distraction, class is the biggest handicap people face and all the signs are there that in countries like America and Britain social mobility out of poverty for the poor of all skin colour is becoming harder and harder.

There is no mystical. Just because you choose not to acknowledge it doesn't mean you are not benefiting from it or would not have. The way in which people in this country have been treated has been different based on a number of circumstances. But race is most notable. This is something undeniable. You, personally, may not feel it, but let's use an example that has occurred in various situations....

You are walking a down a neighborhood street with a semi-automatic over your shoulder. The police approach you. It is legal, by the way, to open carry. What do you think the police are going to say or do? 

Now, put a black man in your place. What do you think the police would say or did do? 

This is a micro-cosmic example. White privilege doesn't mean EVERY white person doesn't struggle or is better off than the next person that looks like him...it means, in our society, with our legal system, which is arbitrary in so many ways, you, being white will be treated better than those of colour. Your actions, opinions, rights are more valued than the person of colour....sir, the country was founded on such a framework. Actually, began before the constitution. 

[Gr8fuln2020]

2 hours ago, Libby1 said:

I wonder if Enigma is thinking specifically about calls for reparations.  When a billionaire (Robert Johnson, co-founder of Black Entertainment Television) is calling for the main consumers of his product to be enriched by the public purse to the tune of trillions of dollars, it tends to muddy the waters considerably.  It's a lot harder to have good faith discussions about societal problems when there are billionaires hovering around in the shadows prodding away for outcomes that will benefit them considerably.

I wonder what the long game here is.  Because there's little doubt that various actors (in the media, at protests...) have participated in inflaming public anger about George Floyd's murder into the current situation where the US is in a state of serious civil unrest.  Is it purely and simply to create a society where black people (especially young black men) can walk down the street without being unduly harassed by officious police officers who assume they're up to no good because they're black?  Or is there also an intention to use the current unrest in the US to, in the longer term, push for massive reparations to be paid to anybody who can prove they are descended from black slaves in the US?  

I know these aren't nice questions to ask, but in the circumstances they do seem like reasonable ones.

 

Yeah. Reparations idea is absurd. 

[simpycurious]

Before you can change someone's mind, you must change someone's heart.....................

[Gr8fuln2020]

Darn. Someone talked about slavery being over for over a 100 years. I wanted to reply, but will add my 2-cents. 

I feel that this is another argument that some people use to try to dismiss the legacy of slavery. I cannot emphasize the unfortunate and moral collapse that must have occurred to allow what was permitted after the civil war. Okay, let's take a look at American history after the civil war. Please note, it took the bloodiest war of this nation to help catapult slavery from the legal status and legitimacy it immorally held.

So people use this argument, that it has been over 100 years, why are we still talking about slavery? This is literally, 3-4 generations. Other people also ask, why after 150, is our society so divisive, unequal? I love this part of American history. 

The 13th Amendment to the USA legally ended slavery. Not the Emancipation Proclamation which so many Americans believe. But the amendment, as you can imagine had very little teeth. After the South is allowed back into the Union, the sh*t hit the fan, as the proverbial saying goes. That is, the form slave owners were not done. Read about the Reconstructionist Period. Note, before I go on, that the 13th Amendment was passed and ratified BEFORE the South was allowed back into the Union. There is no way the Southerners would have agreed to it. 

Ack. I could go on for hours!  In a nutshell, the South were allowed to deny the rights of blacks for close to a 100 years AFTER the amendment which should have guaranteed the same protections under the constitution as any other citizen. Nope. Jim Crow Laws. You think slavery ended by the amendment? Think again. Sweeping laws by Southern states all but guaranteed that blacks would continue being subservient, unprotected, humiliated to the best ability of the Southern states' leadership. 

Another amazing revolution had to take place to JUST demand that American citizens of colour would even benefit from the same protections as every other citizen. AGAIN. The Civil Rights movement. It is not an exaggeration to say that people of colour did not BEGIN to taste of equal protection until the 1960s. 

[Gr8fuln2020]

14 minutes ago, simpycurious said:

Before you can change someone's mind, you must change someone's heart.....................

Yep. That didn't work for hundreds of years. The abolitionist movement did its best to convince people that slavery was immoral, but when money, wealth, and power come into play, no amount of morality or argument is going to compete with that...we see that all the time. 

[simpycurious]

3 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

Yep. That didn't work for hundreds of years. The abolitionist movement did its best to convince people that slavery was immoral, but when money, wealth, and power come into play, no amount of morality or argument is going to compete with that...we see that all the time. 

Let's hope that it's never too late for change........well said Gr8

[Piddy]

26 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

There is no mystical. Just because you choose not to acknowledge it doesn't mean you are not benefiting from it or would not have. The way in which people in this country have been treated has been different based on a number of circumstances. But race is most notable. This is something undeniable. You, personally, may not feel it, but let's use an example that has occurred in various situations....

You are walking a down a neighborhood street with a semi-automatic over your shoulder. The police approach you. It is legal, by the way, to open carry. What do you think the police are going to say or do? 

Now, put a black man in your place. What do you think the police would say or did do? 

This is a micro-cosmic example. White privilege doesn't mean EVERY white person doesn't struggle or is better off than the next person that looks like him...it means, in our society, with our legal system, which is arbitrary in so many ways, you, being white will be treated better than those of colour. Your actions, opinions, rights are more valued than the person of colour....sir, the country was founded on such a framework. Actually, began before the constitution. 

Yeah, many white people can't wrap their brain around white privilege.  It's something they receive everyday and don't realize it.  It's the norm for them and they can't empathize with what non whites may / do experience.

I guess I would equate it with someone having cancer.  People may try to empathize with the person, but can they actually empathize?  Can we really feel what it's like to walk in someone else's shoes?  

Can a white person when walking into a store actually feel what it's like to be looked at as a suspect first instead of a customer?  I doubt it ever crosses their mind.  400 hundred years of systematic racism is hard for whites to empathize with when they've never experienced it in their lives.  

[Gr8fuln2020]

20 minutes ago, simpycurious said:

Let's hope that it's never too late for change........well said Gr8

Never ever too late for change. Not for social changed. Just look how far we have come in the world in terms of solidarity and understanding of at least common and fundamental rights. A lot of minds to change, but with each generation, things work  towards better understanding. At least, I look at it that way. Just look at what is going on today...so many more young white people out there marching for what they know is not just about race, but fundamental rights. As the saying goes, if the rights of one is in jeopardy, you better believe it won't be long before other's rights will be challenged, especially if you suddenly decide to disagree with the status quo. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Gr8fuln2020

[Piddy]

35 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

Darn. Someone talked about slavery being over for over a 100 years. I wanted to reply, but will add my 2-cents. 

I feel that this is another argument that some people use to try to dismiss the legacy of slavery. I cannot emphasize the unfortunate and moral collapse that must have occurred to allow what was permitted after the civil war. Okay, let's take a look at American history after the civil war. Please note, it took the bloodiest war of this nation to help catapult slavery from the legal status and legitimacy it immorally held.

So people use this argument, that it has been over 100 years, why are we still talking about slavery? This is literally, 3-4 generations. Other people also ask, why after 150, is our society so divisive, unequal? I love this part of American history. 

The 13th Amendment to the USA legally ended slavery. Not the Emancipation Proclamation which so many Americans believe. But the amendment, as you can imagine had very little teeth. After the South is allowed back into the Union, the sh*t hit the fan, as the proverbial saying goes. That is, the form slave owners were not done. Read about the Reconstructionist Period. Note, before I go on, that the 13th Amendment was passed and ratified BEFORE the South was allowed back into the Union. There is no way the Southerners would have agreed to it. 

Ack. I could go on for hours!  In a nutshell, the South were allowed to deny the rights of blacks for close to a 100 years AFTER the amendment which should have guaranteed the same protections under the constitution as any other citizen. Nope. Jim Crow Laws. You think slavery ended by the amendment? Think again. Sweeping laws by Southern states all but guaranteed that blacks would continue being subservient, unprotected, humiliated to the best ability of the Southern states' leadership. 

Another amazing revolution had to take place to JUST demand that American citizens of colour would even benefit from the same protections as every other citizen. AGAIN. The Civil Rights movement. It is not an exaggeration to say that people of colour did not BEGIN to taste of equal protection until the 1960s. 

Yes.

I try to imagine where we'd be had reconstruction be allowed to continued unabated (unrealistic I realize).  Had blacks truly been given the equality reconstruction initially granted them.  But any political / economic power they gained was quickly erased.

  And you're right, it took ~ 100 years before what should've taken place back then, was granted to them with the civil rights laws.  I also wonder how many people know someone who experienced life under Jim Crow.

The attitude by some seems to be I had nothing to do with that, so get over it.  Again, 400 years of systemic racism is hard to get over.  Racism is embedded in every aspect of society.  Income, housing, education, opportunity etc.. 

Our original sin seems to stay with us despite efforts over the years to come to grips with it.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Piddy

[Gr8fuln2020]

2 minutes ago, Piddy said:

Yes.

I try to imagine where we'd be had reconstruction be allowed to continued unabated (unrealistic I realize).  Had blacks truly been given the equality reconstruction initially granted them.  But any political / economic power they gained was quickly erased.

  And you're right, it took ~ 100 years before what should've taken place back then, was granted to them with the civil rights laws.  I also wonder how many people know someone who experienced life under Jim Crow.

The attitude by some seems to be I had nothing to do with that, so get over it.  Again, 400 years of systemic racism is hard to get over.  Racism is embedded in every aspect of society.  Income, housing, education, opportunity etc.. 

Our original sin seems to stay with us despite efforts over the years to come to grips with it.

I have found that American's are woefully ignorant of their own history. I mean, it doesn't even come close. As I said before, I received most of my education in an American International school in Italy before coming to the USA for my senior year. I was floored by what my peers believed about their own history. I just feel that there is too little talked about in the HS history class. And history is one of those subjects that really sheds light on what is happening in the present. 

Yeah, if the Reconstruction period would have been permitted to fruition, this country would be a very different country, indeed. 

[Libby1]

4 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

Yeah. Reparations idea is absurd. 

I think morally, there's a drive within people to try to right wrongs....and slavery is a wrong that haunts the US to this day, as well as other nations including my own which indirectly benefited from slavery.  But the kind of plans people float around for reparation just don't sound realistic, and would likely bring a whole new set of fresh problems, resentments, inequalities and societal unrest.   

There's a punitive damages element to the calls for reparations...and while I know punitive damages awards are a normal aspect of US justice, I think they tend to encourage greed, vengeance, vexatious litigation, resistance to peaceful conflict resolution etc.   But inevitably there's support for it.  From people who want to try to absolve themselves from inherited feelings of guilt - and, obviously, from people who wouldn't say no to a very large cash injection thanks to the oppression and brutality their ancestors went through.  But also from people with some vested interests who, while not being descended from slaves themselves, think there's a possibility of the process and outcomes of reparations negotiations enriching their pockets too.  I don't think the reparations argument is going away any time soon, and I think it probably contributes a lot to tensions and racism for obvious reasons. 

Usually if one person is habitually treating the other in a disrespectful way, the best way to resolve the dispute is to sit them down together in a facilitated situation where venting doesn't get out of control, where both people agree to a certain code of respectful behaviour, where they're encouraged to have empathy towards eachother.  Once you introduce the possibility of the aggrieved party winning a financial award, it's harder to resolve a dispute in that non-adversarial way.  If you add the possibility of huge punitive damages to the equation then it's probably going to be near impossible.   Which is unfortunate, because people also often get something that can't be quantified in monetary terms from participating successfully in that non adversarial approach to conflict resolution.  It might not enrich them to nearly the same extent financially, but they're probably likely to walk away from it in a far healthier frame of mind.

 

[Gr8fuln2020]

Just now, Libby1 said:

I think morally, there's a drive within people to try to right wrongs....and slavery is a wrong that haunts the US to this day, as well as other nations including my own which indirectly benefited from slavery.  But the kind of plans people float around for reparation just don't sound realistic, and would likely bring a whole new set of fresh problems, resentments, inequalities and societal unrest.   

There's a punitive damages element to the calls for reparations...and while I know punitive damages awards are a normal aspect of US justice, I think they tend to encourage greed, vengeance, vexatious litigation, resistance to peaceful conflict resolution etc.   But inevitably there's support for it.  From people who want to try to absolve themselves from inherited feelings of guilt - and, obviously, from people who wouldn't say no to a very large cash injection thanks to the oppression and brutality their ancestors went through.  But also from people with some vested interests who, while not being descended from slaves themselves, think there's a possibility of the process and outcomes of reparations negotiations enriching their pockets too.  I don't think the reparations argument is going away any time soon, and I think it probably contributes a lot to tensions and racism for obvious reasons. 

Usually if one person is habitually treating the other in a disrespectful way, the best way to resolve the dispute is to sit them down together in a facilitated situation where venting doesn't get out of control, where both people agree to a certain code of respectful behaviour, where they're encouraged to have empathy towards eachother.  Once you introduce the possibility of the aggrieved party winning a financial award, it's harder to resolve a dispute in that non-adversarial way.  If you add the possibility of huge punitive damages to the equation then it's probably going to be near impossible.   Which is unfortunate, because people also often get something that can't be quantified in monetary terms from participating successfully in that non adversarial approach to conflict resolution.  It might not enrich them to nearly the same extent financially, but they're probably likely to walk away from it in a far healthier frame of mind.

Reparations is a non-starter. No one really believes it will ever happen. The ONLY people pushing this idea are the political/social elites. Most African Americans may agree, with obvious reasons, but they are thinking of the practicality of such.

[elaine567]

3 minutes ago, Libby1 said:

and slavery is a wrong that haunts the US to this day, as well as other nations including my own which indirectly benefited from slavery.

If you are talking about the UK we "directly" benefited from slavery we were right in the middle of it.

[Piddy]

18 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

I have found that American's are woefully ignorant of their own history. I mean, it doesn't even come close. As I said before, I received most of my education in an American International school in Italy before coming to the USA for my senior year. I was floored by what my peers believed about their own history. I just feel that there is too little talked about in the HS history class. And history is one of those subjects that really sheds light on what is happening in the present. 

Yeah, if the Reconstruction period would have been permitted to fruition, this country would be a very different country, indeed. 

You are exactly right.  History books for years glossed over our actually history regarding race.  Luckily I had teachers who ignored the history books and taught the real history along with the current events at the time.

  I'm talking late 1960's and early 70's when there was a lot of history being made.  For example we read Soul On Ice (Eldridge Cleaver) and Malcolm X.  History books were tossed aside and replaced by subscriptions to news papers around the country and discussing current events etc..  

Unfortunately we as a country on the whole are historically and civically illiterate. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Piddy

[Gr8fuln2020]

11 minutes ago, Piddy said:

You are exactly right.  History books for years glossed over our actually history regarding race.  Luckily I had teachers who ignored the history books and taught the real history along with the current events at the time.

  I'm talking late 1960's and early 70's when there was a lot of history being made.  For example we read Soul On Ice (Eldridge Cleaver) and Malcolm X.  History books were tossed aside and replaced by subscriptions to news papers around the country and discussing current events etc..  

Unfortunately we as a country on the whole are historically and civically illiterate. 

I had teachers who used official textbooks, but accompanied them with resources outside of them. When I came to the states, Seniors in HS were talking about the Nina, the Pinta, and the Santa Maria... that's all you know? And, why is that what you know about (US) American History??? And oh, by the way, some of what you say is not true. I would wonder what the heck they were being taught. 

Piddy, there is no better way to mold the electorate to your will than to keep them believing your version of things. In this country, history is extremely important. If you can control the narrative, you get people believing in the most absurd s***. I always get people talking about how the DEMOCRATS were in favour of slavery. How can someone be a Democrat?! Mind you, these are people who don't give a crap about social justice. You don't know your history, you find yourself less familiar of the present. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Gr8fuln2020