Combating Racism in America

[Piddy]

53 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

I had teachers who used official textbooks, but accompanied them with resources outside of them. When I came to the states, Seniors in HS were talking about the Nina, the Pinta, and the Santa Maria... that's all you know? And, why is that what you know about (US) American History??? And oh, by the way, some of what you say is not true. I would wonder what the heck they were being taught. 

Piddy, there is no better way to mold the electorate to your will than to keep them believing your version of things. In this country, history is extremely important. If you can control the narrative, you get people believing in the most absurd s***. I always get people talking about how the DEMOCRATS were in favour of slavery. How can someone be a Democrat?! Mind you, these are people who don't give a crap about social justice. You don't know your history, you find yourself less familiar of the present. 

Yes, political parties evolve or devolve (haha) for that matter.  For example this Republican party is far from the party of Lincoln.  And yes, the Democrats were the party of slavery.  Obviously that's all changed.  

And with the current President the current Republican party has devolved (haha) into something much different than what it was.  As evidenced by all the defections.  So, it helps to know what historical period we're talking about when talking political parties for this reason.

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Piddy

[Gr8fuln2020]

5 minutes ago, Piddy said:

Yes, political parties evolve or devolve (haha) for that matter.  For example this Republican party is far from the party of Lincoln.  And yes, the Democrats were the party of slavery.  Obviously that's all changed.  

And with the current President the current Republican party has devolved (haha) into something much different than what it was.  As evidenced by all the defections.  So, it helps to know what historical period we're talking about when talking political parties for this reason.

Right. I had a history professor, teacher who tried to pull that on me. I reminded him that the Dixie-crats switched parties in the early part of the 20th century. He couldn't and didn't argue and started redirecting his misinformation elsewhere. What was cool, was a fricken' HS student had to remind him as well. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Gr8fuln2020

[schlumpy]

My view of history goes back thousands of years and every ethnic group on earth has been a slave to another ethnic group at some point in history. Slavery has been a very accepted and normalized practice much longer then it's been abolished.

The rise of the west resolved that issue. Argue the details if you wish.

[Gr8fuln2020]

8 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

My view of history goes back thousands of years and every ethnic group on earth has been a slave to another ethnic group at some point in history. Slavery has been a very accepted and normalized practice much longer then it's been abolished.

The rise of the west resolved that issue. Argue the details if you wish.

Social and moral progress. 

[Ellener]

This is where some of the leading research on race and equality is published in the UK, it's a registered charity https://www.runnymedetrust.org/

[SincereOnlineGuy]

21 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

 

Kids being raised by parents that feel like they’re worthless will almost always result in a dysfunctional upbringing. Which leads to all sorts of bad outcomes. Makes sense that feelings of worthlessness is felt disproportionately by the black population because that was literally how they were seen by white people historically. Again things are better now, and people are shamed for being racist, and white supremacy is certainly the exception rather than the rule. But change happens slowly and over generations. You can’t magically fix a dysfunctional upbringing. 

There's the bottom line (above).   (and American society proves  that with vast numbers of new foreign immigrants from Africa and Jamaica and many other places) (who arrive here with a positive outlook and lacking a vibe that is sure  "everybody's out to get me" )

 

17 hours ago, pepperbird said:

If you're comparing it to raising a child, then at what point does the child become an adult?
 

... and you simply aren't getting it.

 

Even in your royal surroundings the children  who became adults  had to draw upon SOMEthing when eventually raising children of their own.

Now your two choices are  caveman-like instincts...   or  examples they were once given at home (irrespective of their present age {or qualifications as "adults"}  when implementing those examples).

 

A further problem arises when those who are raised by parents who feel like they're worthless ... are minimally discernible from others nearby who have everything going for them  (by police making snap judgments {often because there isn't TIME to contemplate very long before action or a lack thereof is required} )  OR by the media, which takes something that affects all races (probably 'equally'... in that Covid does not discern) before presenting data relating to poverty and poverty-caused population density and then presenting that data as somehow race-related, when it simply isn't.     (had the media been so inclined, it could have leaped out on January 1...  or 23rd... and declared:   "Covid affects Asians far more than any other race"...   and it would have been irrelevant b*llsh*t, much as it still is)

 

The snap judgments are made, NOT as a function of racism (which would entail the belief or perception that one race is, or is perceived in some way to be better than another race), but as a function of poverty (or, more accurately,  perceived-at-a-SNAP-judgment poverty).

 

The core crux of the matter being that African Americans and poverty overlap in such numbers that it remains extremely difficult to separate mere skin color from the equation done in some minds to (guess-at poverty). 

(If somebody told the store manager (and NO one else!) that LeBron James is walking through the store... the manager wouldn't even flinch {unless he's a basketball fan} )  (until, of course, word gets out that LeBron is in the area... and then you'll see a {friendly} mob) 

 

(later the same day, the same manager sees a large African American man looking around the store, seeming unique in peeking up and down each aisle to see who's watching (perhaps MUCH like LeBron did earlier on the same day, maybe for different reasons)... and the same manager doesn't know that this person is "Doctor J"...  said manager is likely to fixate on the good doctor and wonder (whether he's going to steal something from the store).

He won't wonder that beCAUSE  the man IS black  (LeBron James already proved as much earlier in the day)...   he's wondering, and trying to completely GUESS whether the man can afford much of whatever the store sells.    (IF deemed unlikely...  by this admittedly UNFAIR "SNAP" judgment)...  then the manager may (antagonize the customer unfairly)

 

 

So in the future, society can either listen to media sources who want only to incite riots and get attention for their media outlet (with wholly irrelevant data), OR it can direct its attention toward mitigating the effects of poverty, which will in turn mitigate the effects on African Americans (and everyone else) of those who think they need to guess at how much money others have.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by SincereOnlineGuy

[schlumpy]

On 6/2/2020 at 5:42 PM, Gr8fuln2020 said:

But, this guy was right. More white people are killed by cops. Not nearly as many unarmed, but not insignificant. My question would have been, so why don't we hear about them? Good question I would have said...is it the media? Could be. But the media is not present for every incident that occurs. Actually rarely are...but people at the scenes are. 

I would suggest that it's a combination of going with news stories that raise your viewing numbers and liberal leaning editors who decide what stories the American people see on news stations. Your responsibility is to take in the information and process it against you have experienced. Mix in other contrary points of view, and use your commonsense. Keep in mind that the people who frame these issues would prefer that you don't do that.

 

[schlumpy]

On 6/2/2020 at 6:20 PM, preraph said:

P.S.  You want to know why both sides of the political spectrum actually want to have prison reform?  Because prisons are full and have been for a long time and they don't want to have to spend money building more.

My ideas of prison reform are quite the opposite of how it is trending. My approach would be to make prisons unpleasant. I would cut most sentences in half except for major crimes like murder and the convicted would spend their sentence in isolation with restricted outside contact. Just enough contact to keep current on news events and family.

To quiet the soft on crime faction I would offer that first time offenders would go to rehab prison where they can learn a trade, get off drugs and get counseling if they want.

Would it work? I'll never get a chance to find out. I only know that what we do is pretty ineffective when you look at the recidivism rate. 

[schlumpy]

On 6/2/2020 at 5:50 PM, Weezy1973 said:

My belief is that the majority of disproportionate suffering that the black population endures is a product of historic racism. Generation after generation of a whole group of people being dehumanized. A few laws changing in the 60s isn’t a magic pill that eliminates all that pain.

There is no greater burden to carry than the burden of feeling worthless. And that’s the message the black community has had thrown at them through a lot of American history. Have things changed - sure. 

I can't discount the historical effect you are describing. I would argue that when you take the ignorance of most people in regard to historical context, I don't see how "historical racism" has a overwhelming effect on todays society. We have people in college who can't tell you anything about the civil war.

[schlumpy]

On 6/2/2020 at 11:56 PM, Weezy1973 said:

But denying that historical racism has impacted Black Americans is the problem.

No one is denying it but when placed within the context of the improved opportunities, preferential treatment, and government programs that were designed to reduce this burden the effect cannot be what you are stating it is. 

[schlumpy]

On 6/3/2020 at 7:01 AM, lana-banana said:

The benefit you have as a white person, being not only the "default" but also considered the "ideal", is immense no matter how much money you have. I know a lot of white guys would like to think they've earned everything in their lives, but any reasonable person knows that they just had a lot of advantages.

 

I don't know how to talk to you about this Lana. I realize I'm just one number on a statisticians spreadsheet but I'm curious as to what experiences in life and general observations have led you to this conclusion? I agree that I haven't earned "everything" I have. There were a few people in my life that gave me a break at certain points that led to better things but I'm assuming that true for the majority of people. Today it's called mentoring. I recently inherited a small amount money from the passing of my Aunt and God bless her. It was unexpected.

Most of what I have was built up very slowly by getting up at 5am and going to work for 38 years. My foreign born wife carried the same burden but had more trouble navigating the system then I did. Once people found out she was German you can imagine what popped out of their mouths until they got to know her.

The key to my boring life was available to anyone and is a well used strategy. You go to work each day. You live below your means. You save your money. You buy what you need and not what you want. You stay out of trouble. Over the years the balance starts to shift and we were able to retire in our early sixties while many of my workmates and hers are still at it.

My wife's illness has certainly modified our plans but we adapt.

I find it fascinating that we can live in the same world and yet experience it in such a different way.

[Gr8fuln2020]

1 hour ago, schlumpy said:

I would suggest that it's a combination of going with news stories that raise your viewing numbers and liberal leaning editors who decide what stories the American people see on news stations. Your responsibility is to take in the information and process it against you have experienced. Mix in other contrary points of view, and use your commonsense. Keep in mind that the people who frame these issues would prefer that you don't do that.

Yeah, not clear exactly what you are saying. But I like your reference to the liberal bias. We have now had FOX for 3.5 years. A de facto propaganda instrument of the right and the POTUS. You would think they would be highlighting every police brutality and questionable encounter against whites by police. Every right-leaning conspiracy, semi-legit right-leaning media outlet should be reporting that, "hey more whites are being killed by police. There is no bias!" You don't see that. Silence. Are you saying that white people do not experience police brutality? Injustice. Abuse? They do. Why do you think the right-leaning media don't mention these incidents? 

Hopefully we will see meaningful reform from all of this. And it will benefit EVERY American. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Gr8fuln2020

[schlumpy]

On 6/3/2020 at 7:50 AM, Gr8fuln2020 said:

I am well aware of how competing, adversarial peoples were complicit in helping Europeans advance slavery. Just be aware, people who typically try to minimize the slave trade and especially the impact and brutality of it, will use the "but black people sold their own people garbage." Also notice how you used the term their OWN people. You seem to be lumping all Africans in the same group. Make no mistake, slavery by conquest was all too common in the old world. Africa, Asia, Europe, for long periods of their history enslaved human beings. As you should know, this inter-racial exchange of human resources was also known to exist in Europe. I suppose they sold their own people too. 

The European slavers took advantage of this pre-existing situations and traded goods to obtain the workers they needed to be transported to the new world. The slavery in the USA, for which this thread directly relates to, was a whole different animal. 

You can focus on slavery from this specific period and time if you want to but without recognizing that slavery has been a well established practice throughout the world for thousands of years you are undercutting all the courageous people over the years who stepped forward and contributed to putting a stop to it at least in western societies. Western civilization accomplished this. It was an amazing feat.

One of the main enticements to invade your neighbor in the ancient world was looting, raping, and bringing home the most attractive women as sex slaves. Don't for a second think that we can't devolve right back to that state.

Just because you have a full understanding of the big picture doesn't make what happened in the US less abhorrent.

[gaius]

I've run across several African immigrants who despite having black skin have managed to do very well for themselves. Latino wealth and incomes are growing every year and have now surpassed African American averages by almost 10k a year. If there's a perception advantage to being white in America, which there probably is, it certainly hasn't stopped many non-whites from seizing opportunity and building a very good life for themselves. So it's obviously a different issue that's holding back large portions of the African American community.

Edited June 4, 2020 by gaius

[lana-banana]

9 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

You go to work each day.

You live below your means. You save your money. You buy what you need and not what you want. You stay out of trouble. Over the years the balance starts to shift and we were able to retire in our early sixties while many of my workmates and hers are still at it.

My wife's illness has certainly modified our plans but we adapt.

I find it fascinating that we can live in the same world and yet experience it in such a different way.

 

 

Quote

You go to work each day.

African-American employment is substantially lower than white employment. Nationally, African-American unemployment exceeds white unemployment by 2 to 1. African-Americans are also less likely to have gone to and graduated college.

Quote

You live below your means.

The net worth of a typical white family is $171,000. The net worth of a typical African-American family is $17,150.

Quote

You save money.

Black women make 61 cents per dollar that their white counterparts make.

Quote

You buy what you need and not what you want. 

Fun fact: Black households actually have a lower average amount of credit card debt than white ones! (Obviously, the difference in income overall changes the perspective on this, but it's an interesting figure nonetheless.)

Quote

You stay out of trouble.

African-Americans are 3.73 times more likely to be arrested for simple marijuana possession. They're also twice as likely to be pulled over and four times more likely to have their vehicles searched (even though in at least one study vehicles with white drivers were more likely to contain contraband). In New York City, 80% of all stop and frisk searches were conducted on Black and Latino people, even though they're 45% of the population. 85-90% of the stops turned up nothing. And African-Americans are 5 times more likely to go to jail. 

Your strategy is not "available to everyone", especially not to people who are facing pronounced systemic discrimination. Sure, anyone can theoretically, succeed; however, there are hundreds of thousands of institutional factors that pose profound obstacles to Black success in America. Try to think about what your life would be like if you started out with a large amount of debt and a job that paid a fraction of what yours paid. Think about how a traffic stop that ended in nothing for you as a white person could have ended in a $100 ticket and arrest (or worse) as a Black man. Please read Ibram Kendi's Stamped from the Beginning as a start.

[lana-banana]

2 minutes ago, gaius said:

I've run across several African immigrants who despite having black skin have managed to do very well for themselves. Latino wealth and incomes are growing every year and have now surpassed African American averages by almost 10k a year. If there's a perception advantage to being white in America, which there probably is, it certainly hasn't stopped many non-whites from seizing opportunity and building a very good life for themselves. So it's obviously a different issue that's holding back large portions of the African American community.

If anything, this just proves the point more---that immigrants who grew up outside of the American system are able to achieve better results, versus people who started in America and went through the African-American experience of de facto segregated schools, widespread lead poisoning, poor nutrition, extreme household debt, etc. If the most successful people in America are the ones who didn't grow up here, it's because our society is setting them back from the start. And it is!

[schlumpy]

On 6/3/2020 at 8:32 AM, Gr8fuln2020 said:

Darn. Someone talked about slavery being over for over a 100 years. I wanted to reply, but will add my 2-cents. 

I feel that this is another argument that some people use to try to dismiss the legacy of slavery. I cannot emphasize the unfortunate and moral collapse that must have occurred to allow what was permitted after the civil war. Okay, let's take a look at American history after the civil war. Please note, it took the bloodiest war of this nation to help catapult slavery from the legal status and legitimacy it immorally held.

I'm not trying to dismiss anything. I'm saying look at entire historical record of slavery and own it. It's who we are and we can an easily return to that place if we aren't vigilant. The basic human being today is no better and actually may be mentally and physically inferior to ancient people who accepted slavery as normal.

It's only a moral victory if we try to view the past using todays mores. The only people back then that thought slavery was immoral in the states was some churches and people that were considered on the fringe of society. I have no reason to believe common thought at that time was any different then today so my commonsense tells me the majority people were busy with their own lives and didn't give much thought to it unless it caused trouble for them.

But don't worry, we are worming that evil church influence from every level of society. No more brain washing about morals in the United States.

[Gr8fuln2020]

15 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

You can focus on slavery from this specific period and time if you want to but without recognizing that slavery has been a well established practice throughout the world for thousands of years you are undercutting all the courageous people over the years who stepped forward and contributed to putting a stop to it at least in western societies. Western civilization accomplished this. It was an amazing feat.

One of the main enticements to invade your neighbor in the ancient world was looting, raping, and bringing home the most attractive women as sex slaves. Don't for a second think that we can't devolve right back to that state.

Just because you have a full understanding of the big picture doesn't make what happened in the US less abhorrent.

Unless I am completely misunderstanding this post, I believe you have misunderstood my original post. I completely agree with you. 

[schlumpy]

On 6/3/2020 at 8:50 AM, Piddy said:

Yeah, many white people can't wrap their brain around white privilege.  It's something they receive everyday and don't realize it.  It's the norm for them and they can't empathize with what non whites may / do experience.

I guess I would equate it with someone having cancer.  People may try to empathize with the person, but can they actually empathize?  Can we really feel what it's like to walk in someone else's shoes?  

Can a white person when walking into a store actually feel what it's like to be looked at as a suspect first instead of a customer?  I doubt it ever crosses their mind.  400 hundred years of systematic racism is hard for whites to empathize with when they've never experienced it in their lives.  

Piddy what have you done or do you suggest be done to lessen the advantage of "white privilege?" I'm curious to what remedy to subscribe to aside for everyone feeling guilty.

I can well sympathize with someone dying as can any mortal human being. If I was immortal perhaps you would have a point.

Yes, I have been followed around a store many times as  a teenager. I know exactly how it feels. 

 

[schlumpy]

On 6/3/2020 at 9:07 AM, Piddy said:

.The attitude by some seems to be I had nothing to do with that, so get over it.  Again, 400 years of systemic racism is hard to get over.  Racism is embedded in every aspect of society.  Income, housing, education, opportunity etc.. 

Our original sin seems to stay with us despite efforts over the years to come to grips with it.

Then there is no hope and I understand why anarchists believe we must destroy society as it exists and create a new equitable society where everyone is equal and benefits alike.

That society has never existed in this world and those that have tried to accomplish this form of social engineering have sent millions of people to their deaths in pursuit of that goal. That is something you must keep in mind as I do.

[Gr8fuln2020]

7 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

I'm not trying to dismiss anything. I'm saying look at entire historical record of slavery and own it. It's who we are and we can an easily return to that place if we aren't vigilant. The basic human being today is no better and actually may be mentally and physically inferior to ancient people who accepted slavery as normal.

It's only a moral victory if we try to view the past using todays mores. The only people back then that thought slavery was immoral in the states was some churches and people that were considered on the fringe of society. I have no reason to believe common thought at that time was any different then today so my commonsense tells me the majority people were busy with their own lives and didn't give much thought to it unless it caused trouble for them.

But don't worry, we are worming that evil church influence from every level of society. No more brain washing about morals in the United States.

The abolitionist movement was well known and established.  People were aware the and long before then of the immorality of slavery. On an individual level, at least. The conductors of the institution of slavery are the ones who used any tool available to them to reshaped that moral framework. You demonize. You place fear. You lie. You dehumanize. These efforts had to be perpetual and targeted because you, as a slave-owner, could not for a moment, allow anyone to think that slaves were any less human than anyone else. There is little to no chance, that people at that time did not recognize the immorality of slavery. 

AND ABSOLUTELY YES...the churches in the South were completely complicit. I agree. 

[gaius]

1 minute ago, lana-banana said:

If anything, this just proves the point more---that immigrants who grew up outside of the American system are able to achieve better results, versus people who started in America and went through the African-American experience of de facto segregated schools, widespread lead poisoning, poor nutrition, extreme household debt, etc. If the most successful people in America are the ones who didn't grow up here, it's because our society is setting them back from the start. And it is!

Many Latinos do grow up here and often go to the same poor schools as African Americans. They have different color skin and are looked at and treated differently than white people. The experience we as a society offer them is similar to African Americans. But they tend to do much better economically. Why is that exactly? Because the experience their own community offers them is that much better.

Not every white person had the same privilege growing up you did lana. The Italian community had a ton of issues, still does, but they've managed to improve and do much better over time. Probably partially because the United States government put a hammer to organized crime instead of pretending like it was everyone else's fault the mafia existed except Italians. It's unfortunate we don't give black people the same respect.

 

[schlumpy]

On 6/3/2020 at 9:13 AM, Libby1 said:

I think morally, there's a drive within people to try to right wrongs....and slavery is a wrong that haunts the US to this day, as well as other nations including my own which indirectly benefited from slavery.  But the kind of plans people float around for reparation just don't sound realistic, and would likely bring a whole new set of fresh problems, resentments, inequalities and societal unrest.  

 

As a folk guitarist from the late 1960's I understand the burning desire to right wrongs. I wrote a song in the early 70's trying to capture my viewpoint on that era. It's not a very good song but those are hard to come by. The main thing that discovered is that over the years, the things I observed applied to each generation. So the song I wrote about the anti-war movement is equally applicable today as it was then in my humble opinion.

 

On the march against war and injustice

We had no time to waste

Coming down like we were the saviors

Of the whole human race

 

Together we made a decision

To the change the way that we live

Knowing that would get their attention

Not knowing what it would bring

 

I remember the past like the present

Tried to right all the wrongs

Never really delivered the message

All the words in our songs

 

So, I’ve taken some time to consider

What I’m talking about

I believe it’s the end of an era

A new ones coming around

 

What do you think Libby? Do you see anything that could be applied to your own experience in life?

[schlumpy]

31 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

Unless I am completely misunderstanding this post, I believe you have misunderstood my original post. I completely agree with you. 

Sorry if I missed your point. That's on me.

[schlumpy]

52 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

Yeah, not clear exactly what you are saying. But I like your reference to the liberal bias. We have now had FOX for 3.5 years. A de facto propaganda instrument of the right and the POTUS. You would think they would be highlighting every police brutality and questionable encounter against whites by police. Every right-leaning conspiracy, semi-legit right-leaning media outlet should be reporting that, "hey more whites are being killed by police. There is no bias!" You don't see that. Silence. Are you saying that white people do not experience police brutality? Injustice. Abuse? They do. Why do you think the right-leaning media don't mention these incidents? 

Hopefully we will see meaningful reform from all of this. And it will benefit EVERY American. 

I use FBI statistics to answer those questions. Watching local news is too dependent on the people in charge of the station determining what I see.