"Defunding" or "disbanding" police departments: Revisiting and redefining the role of policing in society

[Lobouspo]

Scary people in power are even talking about this. The whole city council of Minneapolis and mayor of Los Angeles advocating this.  Whatever you think about police, they are the single institution in a society that prevent anarchy and chaos. Thoughts?

[Libby1]

I would see anybody who was seriously proposing abolition of the police as acting in the interests of either the super wealthy or the mafia. You'd be left with the situation where all the wealthy people would have private security forces comprised of ex police officers who would do whatever the hell they liked, and everybody else would either fend for themselves as best as they could or form links with/pay protection money to mafia type organisations who would also do whatever the hell they liked.  People in the middle class who couldn't afford security themselves would perhaps push for their areas to be separated from the poorer areas for funding purposes - so that they could pool resources and have their own private security & crime investigation forces. 

I can't imagine sane people seriously going for a complete abolition of the police, but maybe building up support for these alarming sounding ideas are a way of creating real leverage against overly powerful police unions who have resisted reform and protected corrupt members for years.  If that's the real aim, in pushing these proposals, I suppose it makes sense in a way.  It isn't an honest approach, but from what I've read over the years it really doesn't seem likely that good faith negotiations with the police unions in the US are possible.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Libby1

[Libby1]

I just saw the footage of that elderly man being very pushed by an officer in New York.  He fell backwards and a moment later he was lying flat on his back on the ground with blood coming seeping out around his head.  Initially the NYPD said that he had tripped and fallen.  Now, two officers have been suspended.  Although most people I've seen commenting were horrified, various commenters were saying things like "well, he approached the officer and could have been reaching for his gun.  This is how they're trained to react."

I've been seeing commentary like that on social media for years.  A kind of "too bad - don't give the police any crap or approach them.  They're trained to react quickly and it's on you if you get hurt" attitude that supports the notion that police officers should never or almost never be held accountable for their actions.  I've been astounded by the prevalence of that attitude for years...and now, there's a backlash against it that is pretty much uncontrollable.  Trump is trying to address it by amping up the authoritarianism, but that's not going to cut it for very long.  In a sense, the police are having their own Harvey Weinstein moment writ large....except that the consequences of it are grave for everybody, not just the police.   

People often like the idea of just tearing existing corrupt systems down, until they realise that they haven't anything solid and reliable to replace them with...and often at times like that something even worse and more corrupt steps in to fill the power vacuum.  Here's a recent Atlantic article which looks at some of the things that are currently blocking reform and how they might be addressed effectively without people just tearing down systems and replacing them with various experiments in a spirit of hope and optimism that will soon turn to panic if those experiments don't actually work out well.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/how-actually-fix-americas-police/612520/

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Libby1

[schlumpy]

Libby it was reported that once the officers were wearing personal cams that police complaints dropped by 90 percent. Draw what conclusions you are comfortable with.

If the city where I live seriously considered banning the police then I'm out of here. I'll find a small town with nice mean burly sheriff and not a wannabe social worker with typewriter hands.

I've heard comments from people like the police should take the first bullet before they can return fire.

Watching the police kneel with protesters is not doing anything for my confidence in law in order. If my house is being robbed, will the police show up to help the thief carry my belongings out and then arrest me for objecting? It does seem to be creeping in that direction. 

Right now many police departments will not take respond unless the theft is over a certain dollar amount.

It's the wrong thing to do and unfair to the people who pay through their taxes for the service and attempt to live stable lives that have meaning.

[Piddy]

I don't see anyone being serious advocating the elimination of police.  In some municipalities there is over funding for police though.   Something that I'd like to see is the demilitarization of police departments.  The police shouldn't be seen as a military entity. 

They are there to serve and protect the community, but not in a military fashion.  However, in recent years police departments have been buying surplus military equipment.  And have started using this equipment in their acts of policing their communities.  Terrible idea.

One obstacle that has stood in the way of police reform is the police unions.  They act more like a political organization like the NRA than a union representing workers.  This is why we've seem so little reform regarding police misconduct. 

A mayor will get elected and run into the police unions and any reform gets rejected.  This is why we need national laws regarding police misconduct.  Choke holds for example need to be outlawed nationally and not just regionally by some of the states. 

So, yes in some cases police departments need to be defunded, but not eliminated entirely.

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Piddy

[Ellener]

9 hours ago, Lobouspo said:

Whatever you think about police, they are the single institution in a society that prevent anarchy and chaos. Thoughts?

I think it's a conversation, that's all. The police actually are our 'well-regulated militia'.

Generic police are used for so many situations these days when some things in America are even currently both technically legal and illegal...I think the whole situation from the pandemic and Floyd murder is showing that we are stretching the 'thin blue line' too thin, expecting too much.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Ellener
wording

[TheStickisback]

I'm anti police but understand there is a need for them and against defunding them. Maybe we need to create an environment that would bring in a better quality group of people to want to work for them. It seems lately we have a few people that grew up that never had any real conflict and power trip when they get a badge. Those are the one that make me anti police because the ones that are actually descent won't call them on it. Hell you do something in the medical field you are dealt with

[TheStickisback]

I wouldn't want to be one because it's not my thing. I agree better pay and definitely better training. Plus a return to community policing and before that a great PR campaign

[lana-banana]

Do it. "Defund the police" doesn't mean "there should be no institutions invested in public safety" - it just means that we need to build better ones, and when you have an institution that's so thoroughly rotten, the best way is to tear it down and start over.

Every country has a police or a police equivalent. In the places I've lived and traveled, the ones that were the most effective lived within their communities (i.e. no cops in the suburbs who came to work to arrest "the others" in the city---this is the standard in America, and it's not good), had relatively minimal weaponry (people weren't inherently afraid the police might kill them), were accountable to their people, and had quite small budgets.

Yes, it's possible to have a police force that causes more good than harm. But in the US, where every tiny town has enough armory and firepower to invade Venezuela and cops murder hundreds of people every year, and where more often than not the cops are simply reinforcing Jim Crow ideals, I think calls for defunding are long overdue. If we are serious about helping our neighbors and protecting our communities then we cannot have one unaccountable institution that wields fear and terror over minority citizens. Get rid of the tanks, get rid of the machine guns, and start over.

[thefooloftheyear]

Community policing actually worked great in the old days....The men would kick the shyt out of anyone that decided to cause mayhem in the neighborhood...If you want an example of this. check out what they did to the biker gang in the movie "Bronx Tale"....

It served as a great deterrent and while we lived in an impoverished area, crime was very petty or non existent...

You wouldn't be able to get away with that today, nor would you be able to find the same type of guys....They are either too old now, or extinct...

TFY

[TheStickisback]

3 hours ago, thefooloftheyear said:

Community policing actually worked great in the old days....The men would kick the shyt out of anyone that decided to cause mayhem in the neighborhood...If you want an example of this. check out what they did to the biker gang in the movie "Bronx Tale"....

It served as a great deterrent and while we lived in an impoverished area, crime was very petty or non existent...

You wouldn't be able to get away with that today, nor would you be able to find the same type of guys....They are either too old now, or extinct...

TFY

Its would once the SJWs get a no youse can't leave moment

[TheStickisback]

5 hours ago, lana-banana said:

Do it. "Defund the police" doesn't mean "there should be no institutions invested in public safety" - it just means that we need to build better ones, and when you have an institution that's so thoroughly rotten, the best way is to tear it down and start over.

Every country has a police or a police equivalent. In the places I've lived and traveled, the ones that were the most effective lived within their communities (i.e. no cops in the suburbs who came to work to arrest "the others" in the city---this is the standard in America, and it's not good), had relatively minimal weaponry (people weren't inherently afraid the police might kill them), were accountable to their people, and had quite small budgets.

Yes, it's possible to have a police force that causes more good than harm. But in the US, where every tiny town has enough armory and firepower to invade Venezuela and cops murder hundreds of people every year, and where more often than not the cops are simply reinforcing Jim Crow ideals, I think calls for defunding are long overdue. If we are serious about helping our neighbors and protecting our communities then we cannot have one unaccountable institution that wields fear and terror over minority citizens. Get rid of the tanks, get rid of the machine guns, and start over.

Defunding a simple answer for a complex proplem that would never work

[major_merrick]

I think some police departments ought to be defunded, especially when they've got a history of abuse.  There's a power structure that needs to go.  Most places have multiple layers of law enforcement, so it is a complicated mess.  Federal authorities, state, county, and municipal....and then there's specialty agencies on top of that.  You can take out one component and you'll still have others in the area. 

I think we need to almost entirely eliminate state and federal law enforcement, as they are frequently the most corrupt.  Reduce state standards for law enforcement to reduce the state's ability to meddle in local affairs.  Then make sure that the leaders of local/county/municipal law enforcement are directly ELECTED rather than appointed.  Short terms, too.  2 years would be good.  That way when there are issues, you can vote the bums out and if necessary have a referendum to remove everybody they've hired.  Government service shouldn't be a long-term career.  People should do other kinds of work before becoming police officers.  After a few years of service, they should then return to other work in the community they've served.  We don't need a permanent paramilitary class that looks down on everybody else and serves as henchmen/thugs for the elite.  Police (especially supervisors and higher ranks) should be drawn from the community, for the service of the community, and elected by the community.  If not, then they lack accountability. 

[lana-banana]

2 hours ago, TheStickisback said:

Defunding a simple answer for a complex proplem that would never work

This is the excuse people give for everything to not ending wars, not stopping mass shootings, not fixing our health care system, not improving schools, etc. I thought this was America, where we united to solve tough problems. "It'll never work"? Gee, how motivating. Guess we better resign ourselves to systemic racism and abuse then, as well as any other number of things---it's too hard! It'll never work!

Nobody says defunding is the answer. It's just part of the answer. Alex Vitale has some outstanding writing on the subject if you want to see an actual proposed policy.

[ironpony]

On 6/4/2020 at 9:48 PM, Lobouspo said:

Scary people in power are even talking about this. The whole city council of Minneapolis and mayor of Los Angeles advocating this.  Whatever you think about police, they are the single institution in a society that prevent anarchy and chaos. Thoughts?

I don't think it's going to happen though?  If this were to happen, can the police department just all of a sudden leave?  I think the government would intervene and tell them to get back to work, wouldn't they?

Edited June 6, 2020 by ironpony

[ironpony]

Oh okay, but the government would keep a department from being dismantled though, wouldn't they?  Like if the mayor of Minneapolis wanted to fire every police officer from the department, could the government stop him?

Edited June 7, 2020 by ironpony

[Ellener]

This is from Jeralynn Blueford:

“If police had been serious about reform and policy change, then guess what? People would not be this angry. We allowed you to kill our children, and you said this was going to change, and you reneged on it. If we keep funding them, it gives them the green light to continue ”.

Her unarmed son was killed in 2012 and the family did eventually get justice for him via protests and suing the police department, who later admitted the police officer had accidentally shot himself.

'Evidence that curtailing proactive policing can reduce major crime' is a 2017 study of what happened during a police 'slow down' in late 2014 during which there was a significant fall in crime; the detailed report is online.

 

[lana-banana]

You'd think that "small government conservatives"* would be happy about this. Individual community leaders are making the choice about what local institutions don't work for them. They are representing their constituents' voices and making decisions based on the needs and desires of their community. Isn't that the whole point?

Alex Vitale's The End of Policing is currently available free on Verso Books. There are plenty of serious and insightful things you can read about what a post-police future would look like. Not only is there no evidence that things would somehow collapse into anarchy, but there's plenty of reason to believe things would be a lot better. There are so many different ways you can confront issues of crime, safety, and justice that don't involve giving massive amounts of money to a largely unaccountable and ineffective police force.

I think a lot of it is people not realizing just how low crime clearance rates are. Your local DMV and post office does a better job providing essential services than the police. "Oh, but if we get rid of the cops then who will protect you when you're assaulted/raped/abused?" Buddy, have I got bad news for you...

*= quotes of course because we all know they don't actually want small government, they want no authority for themselves but rules to prevent anything they don't like

[preraph]

If you want to be governed by dictatorial gangs instead of served and protected by trained and disciplined police, by all means defund the police and live under the governance of criminals instead.  With no law, we can all just get big automatic weapons and shoot anyone who comes and puts a flier on our porch.  If you want to see how well it's going letting criminals run a city, protected by crooked politicians, all you have to do it look to Chicago murder stats.  

Edited June 7, 2020 by preraph

[Woggle]

The police need drastic and serious reform but if we completely got rid of them we would end up like The Purge. Just make them more accountable when they do wrong and shame cops who cover up for the bad ones. If police who murder black people were actually convicted and got the same sentences regular people who murder do then things would change quick. Make them actually protect and serve and those who don't should be deal with swiftly and severely. If there were no law enforcement then somebody else would step in and become the law and they might be even worse than the police. We will never have a utopian society where everybody just lives by the honor system.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, Woggle said:

We will never have a utopian society where everybody just lives by the honor system.

It can still be a goal.

[preraph]

45 minutes ago, Woggle said:

The police need drastic and serious reform but if we completely got rid of them we would end up like The Purge. Just make them more accountable when they do wrong and shame cops who cover up for the bad ones. If police who murder black people were actually convicted and got the same sentences regular people who murder do then things would change quick. Make them actually protect and serve and those who don't should be deal with swiftly and severely. If there were no law enforcement then somebody else would step in and become the law and they might be even worse than the police. We will never have a utopian society where everybody just lives by the honor system.

Idealism by the young is the most dangerous thing of all.  God bless them in their altruistic ignorance.  We were all like that once, but we can't let them govern us.

Edited June 7, 2020 by preraph

[preraph]

On 6/5/2020 at 11:59 PM, TheStickisback said:

I'm anti police but understand there is a need for them and against defunding them. Maybe we need to create an environment that would bring in a better quality group of people to want to work for them. It seems lately we have a few people that grew up that never had any real conflict and power trip when they get a badge. Those are the one that make me anti police because the ones that are actually descent won't call them on it. Hell you do something in the medical field you are dealt with

That is the whole concept behind community policing, but it's easier said than done.  None of the critics want to make the sacrifices and place themselves in harm's way like police do, but they all want to supervise on a board and tell them how to do it when they don't have a clue how to do it themselves.  Anyone on a supervisory board should have to have some police training even if they never become one so they know what they're up against at least a little.  

 

After the ambush and killing of 5 officers in Dallas in 2016 during a BLM march, the black chief of police pushed hard for what he had always been striving for, which was community policing.  He wrote a book about it because he came out of a neighborhood he eanted to help and improve himself.  The leader of our local BLM, who once crashed a city council meeting only to be arrested for 27 outstanding warrants, was sat down and talked to by the chief, who asked him to become a police officer and that if he did, he would put him in his own community so he could help it.  No interest in that, apparently, and the leader continues to march and solicit publicity today.  

 

Recently, that chief, who retired not long after the ambush and wrote his book, took a job in Chicago as their police chief.  I really hated to see it, because I know politics are too crooked there all the way to the top to allow him to succeed.  And sure enough, he's hands have been tied by the city leaders who don't care if the carnage continues.  I can't imagine why they hired him to begin with if they're not going to let him try to fix it.  I guess both sides were naive and thought they were getting into something they weren't.  

[nittygritty]

Local ordinances are decided by the city council and Mayor so defund them first if they don’t want any enforcement. It’s nothing more than ridiculous pandering being done by politicians that have helped create this mess.

[preraph]

 P.S.  Stickisback, there are some power tripping police.  My homestate in the late sixties, that was apparent.  Things have changed most places.  I never saw that in Dallas after I moved here.  I'm sure there are a couple, because people are flawed, but after how many there were in earlier times, that is something they training and application process tries its best to filter out.