"Defunding" or "disbanding" police departments: Revisiting and redefining the role of policing in society

[Ellener]

19 hours ago, TheStickisback said:

Few people have really dealt with someone in a real psychotic episode. A social worker really isn't equipped to handle that or even the average nurse unless they have had experience in mental health. Hell try being a nurse and having to give someone like that a shot of haldol or ativan

I have. It's very time-consuming. Especially if the person is drunk or drugged, which is why they have to sleep it off before you can get anywhere.

 

[meed]

New to the conversation -  it has been mentioned that police should not be involved in drug overdoses.  Don't some people become violent when under the influence of both drugs and/or alcohol?  How are they to know ahead of time if the individual will turn violent or not?  

[sothereiwas]

1 hour ago, preraph said:

Even now that pot is legal many places or just a misdemeanor in others, there's still a huge black market for it.  People used to think that would end, but it didn't.  

It didn't end because it's not actually unrestricted, it's heavily regulated and taxed. How much black market is there for corn?

[preraph]

Honestly, I think there's a black market because it's so easy to grow.  Doesn't require special machinery, even.

[Stret]

https://novaramedia.com/2020/06/20/why-does-the-police-exist/
This is a superb and well-researched article that explains the real role of police as opposed to perceived. It is a real eye opener for all those that think that alternatives don't exist or that police is there primarily to protect from crime. The author successfully argues that far from protecting communities from ‘crime’, the police’s role has always been to control and discipline the working class.

[sothereiwas]

2 hours ago, preraph said:

Honestly, I think there's a black market because it's so easy to grow.  Doesn't require special machinery, even.

First define black market, and then explain how a black market can exist for something that's not restricted. Like corn, or zucchini. 

[preraph]

Well, in Texas what you get is bringing it across the border illegally. It happens with everything from drugs to dolls and guns. Don't want to pay taxes, you know, or don't have the required paperwork. If you follow CBP, you'll see literally everything smuggled in. They'll tell you what they get every day if you follow them on social media. 

[sothereiwas]

1 hour ago, preraph said:

Well, in Texas what you get is bringing it across the border illegally. It happens with everything

OK, so if that's the case, who cares about this plant more than some other plant? If they're really smuggling illegal tomatoes across the Texas border it's sure not made the news here. The reason some things are more attractive to criminals is simply because the government has raised the cost of doing business for the competition. That's it. Stop doing that and the illegal trade becomes trade. 

[preraph]

The media avoids that sort of news. I figured you knew that by now. Anyway like I said, I prefer to go straight to the source for news when I can so I follow Border Patrol and Homeland security and the FBI and the doj, and if you do follow them you will see what is going on at the border and elsewhere.

 

Just in the last 4 days, tons of narcotics, weed, humans, counterfeit designer face masks, solar panels, weapons and counterfeit Pokemon toys. 

Reference @CBP on Twitter.

[sothereiwas]

2 hours ago, preraph said:

Just in the last 4 days, tons of narcotics, weed, humans, counterfeit designer face masks, solar panels, weapons and counterfeit Pokemon toys. 

All items that are illegal for one reason or another, except the solar panels which are a bit of a mystery but I'm thinking they were probably avoiding taxes, stolen, counterfeit or otherwise rendered illegal. 

[basil67]

9 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

It wasn't originally started due to lack of funding, it was some misguided concept that was trendy at the time, which said that these institutionalised people were being put upon by being institutionalised, and everyone would be better off if we could just put them out into the public and let them manage themselves. It may now be a funding issue, but that wasn't the genesis of the thing. 

The genesis of disbanding lunatic asylums (as they were called) was multi faceted and quite reasonable.  Asylums really started to become a thing in the Victorian era where one could be institutionalised for such things as nymphomania, sexual perversion (homosexuality) drunkenness, masturbation, feeblemindedness or being an overly opinionated woman.  Looking back now, it's horrifying that these people were locked away.    Then there were real things such as a breakdown, shell shock (PTSD), suicide attempt - none of which should have warranted being locked in an asylum indefinitely.   And yes, there were people who did have significant mental illness. 

Part of the change started with recognising that people like the above had no justification being held at all or, in the case of a breakdown, long term against their will.   The other part of the change is connected to treatment of mental illness vastly improving.  

Yes, sometimes people need a short term psych bed if there's a problem with their meds and they need stabilising.  Or if they are not meds compliant and are sectioned until they are stabilised.   And yes, this costs money and is part of the discussion about funding for police vs hospitals, psych and caseworkers.    No, it's not a perfect science - even my son's psychiatrist says this - but we've come such a long way since asylums were first a thing and locking stable people away forever is no longer a reasonable answer. 

 

[Ellener]

@Stret I AM the working class, in that I was raised poor, so I don't worry why it takes the Margaret Thatchers of the world to define our democracy.

The US black race thing was way worse though, stealing people and then subjugating them at several turns of history to placate the greedy. 

About time they said no and took advantage of the same freedoms as me: we are all American fortunately. 

I ♥️ my country.

Make everyone equal to me or we are all slaves.

[preraph]

SothereIwas, I mean it should be obvious that they smuggle stuff that they can sell cheaper but still make a lot of money on no matter what it is or whether it's something that would be legal or not if sold in the US. The Border is Mexico's biggest industry. Sometimes they bundle things together. Like one of those was mattresses and then inside the mattresses was weed. Things cost a lot more north of the Border so there's some money to be made at the border. 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

a problem with their meds and they need stabilising

What if they don't need meds just a stabilised life?

I appreciate what you are saying about institutionalisation, but I was back there in Thatcher's Britain watching 'care in the community' devolve because basically her values meant there was no 'community'....everyone was too selfish.

That's changing I think.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, preraph said:

SothereIwas, I mean it should be obvious that they smuggle stuff that they can sell cheaper but still make a lot of money on no matter what it is or whether it's something that would be legal or not if sold in the US. The Border is Mexico's biggest industry. Sometimes they bundle things together. Like one of those was mattresses and then inside the mattresses was weed. Things cost a lot more north of the Border so there's some money to be made at the border. 

If there was 'no border' and decriminalisation it wouldn't be a smuggling or legal issue except where there are legitimate human rights issues.

[basil67]

Yes Ellener you're right, it doesn't always have to be about meds.   There's so much to write and people and their mental health needs are all so different

thanks

[sothereiwas]

2 hours ago, preraph said:

Like one of those was mattresses and then inside the mattresses was weed.

I'm sceptical that the burgeoning mattress-smuggling business would be lucrative enough to support a large, organized, criminal enterprise on its own. Making something illegal increases the price due to simple economics, while simultaneously ensuring that only criminals will be willing to charge those inflated prices. This is how alcohol, along with other illegal activities like prostitution and gambling, made the mafia wealthy 100 years ago. 

This criminal wealth then forces the use of militarised police. 

[schlumpy]

It all comes down to whether the government gets their cut or not.

Public safety or health takes a back seat to that overriding requirement.

[preraph]

Or all I know it might have been a legitimate mattress business and then they just hid the illegal drugs in there because that's how they do. They're always finding them and shipments of legitimate produce. It's just a big big business at the border. 

[sothereiwas]

1 hour ago, preraph said:

Or all I know it might have been a legitimate mattress business and then they just hid the illegal drugs in there because that's how they do. They're always finding them and shipments of legitimate produce. It's just a big big business at the border. 

That's the point. legitimate businesses run (ideally) based on competition conducted legally. In that arena, there is little to no extra fat to fund the expense associated with running a criminal enterprise. If we divert public funds to distort the market, we eliminate potential business competition by making the business illegal, taxed, or otherwise exploitable. There is a reason that organized crime isn't famous for the banana trade, or the ball bearing business. There's not enough money in it to support a large enough cut for them. Instead they get involved in illegal or corrupt lines of work like unions and narcotics. Plenty of room to skim there.

When we drive business to them using public funds to enforce conditions they need to thrive, we must then use even more public funds to fight the huge criminal organization we have driven funding into.  Not an awesome plan.

[preraph]

This is all levels of smuggling, from one dude sneaking over here to sell engangered turtles to little kids on the street corner to full-blown cartel and everything in between.  Nothing we're doing is enabling it except allowing an open border.  

[preraph]

So some of you know I've mostly been watching Gunsmoke when not working during the virus.  Well, one of the episodes yesterday, Marshall Dillon got "defunded" and replaced with a friendly Constable.  All the business owners in town ousted Dillon because they didn't want him keeping the annual cattle drivers, a rowdy bunch, up from Texas from enjoying themselves to the fullest and spending money, and that mean a lot of them shooting up people and destroying the town.  So Marshall Dillon agreed to not do a thing unless they came and asked him to.  So you can imagine the ending.  A couple of Chazes later, with the drovers destroying their businesses, the business owners came asking.  And Marshall said, "Well, it's a little late, but I'll see what I can do."  And it only took him less than an hour too.   

 

[pepperbird]

On 6/5/2020 at 12:48 AM, Lobouspo said:

Scary people in power are even talking about this. The whole city council of Minneapolis and mayor of Los Angeles advocating this.  Whatever you think about police, they are the single institution in a society that prevent anarchy and chaos. Thoughts?

My only experience with police has been positive. I had been sexually assaulted when I was 15, and had to go to the police. My dad took me to do it because my mom was at work.
The police were very kind, but since I was a minor, they had to question me with my dad present.
It was awful. Even the officers were sniffling, having to ask the questions they did to a kid right in front of her father.

The other time is when my duaghter was hit by a car. They were so good to her. She was really frightened, but they made her feel better.

[pepperbird]

On 6/5/2020 at 8:07 AM, schlumpy said:

Libby it was reported that once the officers were wearing personal cams that police complaints dropped by 90 percent. Draw what conclusions you are comfortable with.

If the city where I live seriously considered banning the police then I'm out of here. I'll find a small town with nice mean burly sheriff and not a wannabe social worker with typewriter hands.

I've heard comments from people like the police should take the first bullet before they can return fire.

Watching the police kneel with protesters is not doing anything for my confidence in law in order. If my house is being robbed, will the police show up to help the thief carry my belongings out and then arrest me for objecting? It does seem to be creeping in that direction. 

Right now many police departments will not take respond unless the theft is over a certain dollar amount.

It's the wrong thing to do and unfair to the people who pay through their taxes for the service and attempt to live stable lives that have meaning.

It pisses me off ( excuse my language) that some here feel that social workers, community programming etc. can replace the police.  They've even made the disgusting proposition that women don't need to be afraid if they can protect themselves.
Yeah right. Like my daughters friend who was gang raped by six guys could protect herself.
When I was very small, I lived in a tiny community up north in the back end of nowhere, and we had a community police officer. He was sort of like the old style beat cop. He interacted with community members and was involved in a lot of activities that went well beyond his job. He knew everyone by name, and they knew him.
I wonder if that could come back?

 

[pepperbird]

On 6/7/2020 at 4:51 PM, thefooloftheyear said:

There is historical evidence of this scenario....pretty much anyway....

The Mob pretty much ran NYC for a while...Cops and politicians were bought and in their pockets...Things were allowed to happen that wouldn't be remotely acceptable today...

Actually they had parts of NYC safer and cleaner than any other time in history, but corruption was the name of the game, and only the strongest survived...The violent crime rate and quality of life was horrible...SO in that sense a de funding of the police would be even worse than Mob control...

Trust me here, unless you want to be "one of them".....you wont want this....

TFY

Up until not that long ago, if my daughters had told me they wanted to take a trip to NYC, I would have said hell no. Now?
They went with a good friend. It was their first big "on their own" trip and they had the best time. Everyone was so kind to them, and they'd love to go back.  There were lots of police, but that was in Times Square so maybe that's just the way it is there?