"Defunding" or "disbanding" police departments: Revisiting and redefining the role of policing in society

[pepperbird]

On 6/8/2020 at 4:18 PM, stillafool said:

I would imagine any smart Policeman/woman is already updating their resume at this point.  The job is too dangerous as it is for the amount of pay they get and they will no longer be able to defend themselves or fellow officers.  Seems like a suicide mission.

like the poor RCMP officer who was dragged out of her cruiser and shot in the head up here a few weeks ago?
Disgusting to know her family got lots of hate mail/ messages saying she deserved what she got because she was a cop. Jokes were made, cartoons  circulated, and I have a sneaking feeling some are just fine with that.
what was she doing when she was killed? she had just arrived on the scene to try and capture a man who had shot 22 people throughout a rural area, burned down houses and was heading into the city to kill even more.



 

[pepperbird]

On 6/20/2020 at 1:11 AM, basil67 said:

Indeed.  I would say that the problem is due to funding rather than fashion.  It's the same here.  People come begging for help with loved ones who are unstable and there's no beds.

 

 

On 6/21/2020 at 12:14 AM, basil67 said:

The genesis of disbanding lunatic asylums (as they were called) was multi faceted and quite reasonable.  Asylums really started to become a thing in the Victorian era where one could be institutionalised for such things as nymphomania, sexual perversion (homosexuality) drunkenness, masturbation, feeblemindedness or being an overly opinionated woman.  Looking back now, it's horrifying that these people were locked away.    Then there were real things such as a breakdown, shell shock (PTSD), suicide attempt - none of which should have warranted being locked in an asylum indefinitely.   And yes, there were people who did have significant mental illness. 

Part of the change started with recognising that people like the above had no justification being held at all or, in the case of a breakdown, long term against their will.   The other part of the change is connected to treatment of mental illness vastly improving.  

Yes, sometimes people need a short term psych bed if there's a problem with their meds and they need stabilising.  Or if they are not meds compliant and are sectioned until they are stabilised.   And yes, this costs money and is part of the discussion about funding for police vs hospitals, psych and caseworkers.    No, it's not a perfect science - even my son's psychiatrist says this - but we've come such a long way since asylums were first a thing and locking stable people away forever is no longer a reasonable answer. 

 

the mental health care system is often misunderstood.
M y oldest had some issues with depression and was hospitalized for about two weeks. I was allowed to stay with her. Poor kid was terrified! We had to drive her form our small community hospital to the nearby children's hospital to be admitted, and the whole time she was crying and begging not to go. She thought she'd never get out. She's also embarrassed she was ever there.

Removing the stigma around mental illness could be significant when it comes to public safety. Make it so that it's no more stigmatizing than having cancer, diabetes or some other illness.

[basil67]

Pepperbird, I couldn't agree more.  

[preraph]

 

This city pours all of its spare money into developing and improving its south side.  We waive taxes for any businesses that will move in there, etc.  But in the end, it's crime why they can't stay.  People have got to focus on crime to make improvements.  It's not as if we're not already trying hard to make improvements.  I for one would love to see that side of town start to flourish because it's got some really pretty nature areas and some hills in an otherwise flat landscape.  But there's no where to buy groceries there because of crime, no matter how many grocers we subsidize to try it.  

 

There is a commercial development of restaurants and bars just across the river that has a good toehold, but it's really more city center, but just across the bridge.  During the protests/riots that first day or so of it, protesters tried to cross that bridge so they could tear that up over there, but the police and city stopped them on the bridge and they're still moaning about it.  They had just torn up downtown and wanted to go tear up the one unblighted area over there the city worked so hard to develop and subsidize so there'd be some jobs nearby.  

 

We can't have nice things as long as there are criminals.  Don't fool yourself to think they're all really nice people underneath.  They're not.   

[pepperbird]

I can't speak to the USA, but here, there was a sizable group who were pleased as punch when businesses started closing due to covid-19. In their mind, it was a shot at the elites/big business. The same is true now for the current protesters, most of whom are young. They crow every time another business closes.
 

Meanwhile, these same people are complaining because there's few/no jobs. Our province's unemployment rate sits at about 15 percent now, according to the latest numbers, and that doesn't count the people who are on social assistance, etc. In my experience, poverty and crime are highly linked. These businesses are usually small mom and pop style stores or franchises, and these are often the "first job" for a lot of people. What, exactly, did they think was going to happen?

[schlumpy]

7 hours ago, pepperbird said:

Removing the stigma around mental illness could be significant when it comes to public safety. Make it so that it's no more stigmatizing than having cancer, diabetes or some other illness.

Once upon a Time in this fair land depression was not considered a mental illness. People got depressed all the time but it was part of living. It was something we coped with.

How it got lumped to the category of needing a straight jacket I don't know. It probably has to do with mission creep or drug company ads pushing a new awareness into the nations subconscious.

There are entirely too many categories and labels used by psychologists and while that makes it much easier for statisticians it a bit bewildering for most people.

[preraph]

The mental illness that crime enforcement have to deal with is when someone is breaking a law even if that law might only be obstructing traffic. It doesn't matter why they're doing it but it has to stop. The problem comes in when you're dealing with an unknown entity which is always the case. Police here several years ago add media and the deceased's parents in an uproar after a guy broke into an auto dealership and took a baseball bat to a bunch of vehicles and then hid around the cars while still being aggressive to the lone policeman who had no idea if he was armed but knew he was violent. Of course that ended badly. 

 

And they couldn't be quicker to blame the police for it, the parents saying their son had been depressed, etc. It doesn't matter if he was depressed. He was a violent jerk destroying tens of thousands of dollars of merchandise and then instead of just running or, novel idea, surrendering, he played games like he was trying to get that cop. The media was feeling all sorry for this guy. It was unbelievable. 

 

If there had been a psychologist there, he probably have a cracked skull from the baseball bat by now.

[sothereiwas]

26 minutes ago, preraph said:

If there had been a psychologist there, he probably have a cracked skull from the baseball bat by now.

OK so I'm weighing the merits of this option .....

[Ellener]

16 hours ago, pepperbird said:

hey've even made the disgusting proposition that women don't need to be afraid if they can protect themselves.

This is too big an issue to reduce to small sentences like this but women can and do protect themselves. Women are not victims any more or less than any other member of society.

When I went to work for the Probation Service I heard several times 'women shouldn't be doing this work' but women were better at de-escalating and reducing conflict plus frankly there was a societal value of 'never hurt anyone in a position of weakness/from your position of strength' which needs to be taught again. From the top down.

The worst things which happen are difficult to prevent and are actually more likely in authoritarian society- just different people would be doing the assault or murder.

Sorry for what happened to you and to your daughter's friend. 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Ellener
clarify meaning

[Ellener]

7 hours ago, schlumpy said:

People got depressed all the time but it was part of living. It was something we coped with.

Even today suicide is still the leading cause of violent death worldwide. Depression and mental illness happens across a spectrum through something a person can manage alone, to needing help, to suicide.

[Ellener]

Here is the latest news from Seattle https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53146258

Mayor Jenny Durkan said the violence had become "increasingly difficult" for businesses and residents.

She said the city would work with the demonstrators to end the so-called Capitol Hill Occupied Protest zone.

The city centre zone was taken over by protesters on 8 June after police withdrew following violent clashes.

[pepperbird]

7 hours ago, Ellener said:

This is too big an issue to reduce to small sentences like this but women can and do protect themselves. Women are not victims any more or less than any other member of society.

When I went to work for the Probation Service I heard several times 'women shouldn't be doing this work' but women were better at de-escalating and reducing conflict plus frankly there was a societal value of 'never hurt anyone in a position of weakness/from your position of strength' which needs to be taught again. From the top down.

The worst things which happen are difficult to prevent and are actually more likely in authoritarian society- just different people would be doing the assault or murder.

Sorry for what happened to you and to your daughter's friend. 

um, this makes me extremely angry. you're trying to say rape is associated with an authoritarian society? please tell me I misunderstood you- maybe I did?

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, pepperbird said:

um, this makes me extremely angry. you're trying to say rape is associated with an authoritarian society? please tell me I misunderstood you- maybe I did?

I said quote unquote:

The worst things which happen are difficult to prevent and are actually more likely in authoritarian society- just different people would be doing the assault or murder. 

[pepperbird]

2 minutes ago, Ellener said:

I said quote unquote:

The worst things which happen are difficult to prevent and are actually more likely in authoritarian society- just different people would be doing the assault or murder. 

murder and physical assault  are crimes committed for a variety of reasons, ranging from anger to substance abuse, hatred, even a misunderstanding . Sexual assault is all about power and control over another human being.

I can sort of see your point about murder/assault, but  do you think women and men would really be any less at risk of sexual assault in a society with less authority?

In my experience, small as it may be, all the social workers, counsellors, crisis lines etc. won't change stats around crimes like child molestation, sexual assault, that sort of thing. They can assist victims,  That's because they aren't usually linked to external factors. A man doesn't molest his stepdaughter because there's too much authority in society, mad at his boss etc.

At any rate, sorry if I sounded argumentative. You make some  good points.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, pepperbird said:

do you think women and men would really be any less at risk of sexual assault in a society with less authority?

I would not live in authoritarian society, by which I mean somewhere where power is maintained by political repression and state violence. I would not be safe there.

In those regimes people report assaults by the actual people who are meant to oversee or protect them.

Why a person seeks excessive power over others I do believe is the role of social scientists to solve. And community leaders and interfaith leaders. It's not a very popular word to use these days- evil. But it is evil to harm someone else.

The person doing so usually has some kind of 'rationale' about it and lack of empathy.

I heard in a sermon about two years ago: 'if we being hurt can not go on to hurt others'...I think the answer is somewhere in that.

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Ellener

[preraph]

Social workers can't do anything to prevent crime beyond seeing to it that children aren't left in abusive households.  

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, preraph said:

Social workers can't do anything to prevent crime beyond seeing to it that children aren't left in abusive households.  

Social workers work alongside a number of other professionals to keep people safe in all segments of society.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, enigma32 said:

At this point, if people wanna do an experiment and defund the police, I say let them do it. If things get better, good! If crime goes up, then maybe they should try something else. Something tells me that if they do defund the police, they will end up doing like Camden, NJ did, and hire MORE police, then the media will honor them as a success story of how to defund the police. 

In a democracy it's a dialogue, a conversation. There's no right or wrong, just how can we fulfill the most people.

[pepperbird]

7 hours ago, enigma32 said:

That all depends on your perspective. If, after defunding the police is implemented, we see in an increase in crime, a decrease in clearance and conviction rates, and more people dying, I would say that would be the result of something done wrong. 

I always find it odd how some think social services will somehow fix everything. It can't.


 

[preraph]

St Louis Mayor readd names of people who want to defund the police.

https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/local/st-louis-mayor-lyda-krewson-reads-names-protesters/63-912b9c6a-8bbf-4d7a-b015-fbb1a6b48db3

[preraph]

Poll shows two-thirds of Americans oppose defunding the police.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/12/two-thirds-of-americans-oppose-defund-the-police-movement-poll/

[Ellener]

I never call the police and I'm not going to commit more crime whether they are there or not. I doubt it would affect my life greatly whatever happened @enigma32

'Defund' seems to have two meanings, one is diverting some calls to other services/help from other professionals, and that I would support.

I don't support the police amassing weapons like tear gas. And I don't think people should use them as an HOA neighbourhood security service for every little thing.

One solution is to de-criminalise offences where the general population no longer respect or follow those laws. 

 

 

 

[Weezy1973]

Violent crime has been on a downward trajectory in the US since the mid 1990s. Has police funding remained consistent over that time, or dropped as well as there’s less need?

[Piddy]

Again, some of us are against the continued militarization and warrior mentality of policing.  So "defund" for me would mean reallocate the funds you spend on surplus military equipment and spent that on more community based initiatives / training etc..  

It can't be said enough.  Get to know the people in the community you're policing.  You're less likely to brutalize someone you know.  I'd also take some money and have intensive diversity training.  Racist cops must be rooted out of Police Departments.

Ideally, I'd have a community / recreational / youth center next to Police Departments and require police to volunteer at these places.  So, "defunding" to many of us means "rethinking" policing. 

Community policing should be an extension of the community there to "serve and protect" and not an occupying military type operation that many police departments have become, where it's an us versus them mentality.

Police should be 'of' the community they serve.

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Piddy

[Piddy]

On 6/23/2020 at 9:55 PM, enigma32 said:

At this point, if people wanna do an experiment and defund the police, I say let them do it. If things get better, good! If crime goes up, then maybe they should try something else. Something tells me that if they do defund the police, they will end up doing like Camden, NJ did, and hire MORE police, then the media will honor them as a success story of how to defund the police. 

What you keep failing to recognize is that Camden N.J.  police changed their culture of policing.  The sanctity of life was at the forefront of their mission statement.  So, it's disingenuous to not look at how they changed their whole culture of policing.  That's the real story there.  Not just hiring a few more cops. 🙄  

Edited June 30, 2020 by Piddy