"Defunding" or "disbanding" police departments: Revisiting and redefining the role of policing in society

[preraph]

Well, all politicians are tempted by the idea of spending money on their pet development projects instead, where they very often get kickbacks.  The only reason we have bipartisan support on releasing criminals is because all politicians are looking for any excuse not to spend more money building the much needed more prisons.  Its all about money, whether you're a politician or a protester.  It's all about what it gets you.

[thefooloftheyear]

There is historical evidence of this scenario....pretty much anyway....

The Mob pretty much ran NYC for a while...Cops and politicians were bought and in their pockets...Things were allowed to happen that wouldn't be remotely acceptable today...

Actually they had parts of NYC safer and cleaner than any other time in history, but corruption was the name of the game, and only the strongest survived...The violent crime rate and quality of life was horrible...SO in that sense a de funding of the police would be even worse than Mob control...

Trust me here, unless you want to be "one of them".....you wont want this....

TFY

[Woggle]

3 hours ago, Ellener said:

It can still be a goal.

Santa Claus will be real before that happens.

[TheStickisback]

On 6/6/2020 at 11:06 AM, thefooloftheyear said:

Community policing actually worked great in the old days....The men would kick the shyt out of anyone that decided to cause mayhem in the neighborhood...If you want an example of this. check out what they did to the biker gang in the movie "Bronx Tale"....

It served as a great deterrent and while we lived in an impoverished area, crime was very petty or non existent...

You wouldn't be able to get away with that today, nor would you be able to find the same type of guys....They are either too old now, or extinct...

TFY

There are a few states that still have mutual combat

[TheStickisback]

The thing I see is defunding police comes from cities that have a Democrat stranglehold. It seems Republicans refuse to really go there to really win people over or even this crazy idea do Black outreach. I know Black vote overwhelmingly republican. You'd be surprised what you'd get if outreach actually happened. Funny fact Eldridge Cleaver one of the leaders of the Black Panthers later in life was a Republican. People need opposing views tto really workout concepts to see if they are logistically sound. Most cities these days are just a real life echo chamber because of a failure of an opposition to oppose due to a lack of not utilizing the right people to do outreach and no not Candace Owens she is basically a grifter

[ironpony]

Okay here is the thing I do not understand about defunding the police.  People say they will get by fine because they have guns ammo, and they don't the police.  But what if say for example, your wife murdered or your child was kidnapped, and you want to find the person responsible?  Do you rely on private investigators to build a case instead?

[crazycanuck86]

Like it or not Law Enforcement is necessary. To Defund them will only benefit criminals.

[Libby1]

So I see several headlines saying that Minneapolis is disbanding its police department.  I won't link due to the time lag, but from Forbes...

The Minneapolis City Council on Sunday voted to disband its police department and invest in community-based public safety programs following calls from activists to ‘defund the police,’ in the wake of George Floyd’s death at the hands of a Minneapolis police officer.

 

[SincereOnlineGuy]

1 minute ago, crazycanuck86 said:

Like it or not Law Enforcement is necessary. To Defund them will only benefit criminals.

So you're suggesting that defunding law enforcement won't benefit city/state/province budgets??

 

 

[TheStickisback]

36 minutes ago, SincereOnlineGuy said:

So you're suggesting that defunding law enforcement won't benefit city/state/province budgets??

 

 

Actually it won't. Better suggestion would be to change gun laws in some of these cities and force cities to give police better pay and training. Oh and actually force them to recruit to bring in some jobs by having local tax cuts and relaxation on other barriers to job creation in cities. 

[Redhead14]

Seriously?  Defund the police?  We are going to basically encourage everyone to buy guns and arm the great majority of the citizens, most of whom can't find their asses with both hands and can't be trusted with a crayon?  Country be headed for vigilantism/anarchy.   Unbelievable BS coming out of this.  We are going to change our systems and laws because a bunch of opportunistic hoodlums and fringe groups hijacked a cause for no other reason than to blow off steam, bring home 54" TVs and address their Napoleon complexes? The protesters aren't the ones putting forth the idea of defunding.  It's the rioting fringe groups wearing peaceful protests as a hat and other special interest groups who want that.  And, let's not forget that it's really convenient that this once fairly obscure concept has come up again since the virus has affected and will affect state, city and federal budgets and "they" will be needing to cut and redistribute funds. 

The cops have been arrested and the primary offender is being charged with 2nd degree murder.  And, people are still carrying on with protests and riots and Mr. Floyd has been buried and memorialized.  Leave it be and wait for the trial(s).  And, god help us all if they don't get jail time. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Redhead14

[Libby1]

I'm a little surprised nobody's commented on the decision to disband the Minneapolis Police Dept.  Was it something most people were expecting?  Are there precedents elsewhere in the US that they could model an alternative (to traditional policing) on?

I don't really get how something like that works.  Community Initiatives are all very well, but if somebody commits a rape or a murder then that calls for something a bit more than some panel of people sitting around figuring out an appropriate form of restorative justice.  Who would deal with the crime scene, gather the evidence and conduct the investigation?  Would they retain a small core of highly trained, experienced (and highly paid) officers to deal with more serious crime, or would they be looking for police departments in another county to plug the gap?

[Redhead14]

4 hours ago, Libby1 said:

I'm a little surprised nobody's commented on the decision to disband the Minneapolis Police Dept.  Was it something most people were expecting?  Are there precedents elsewhere in the US that they could model an alternative (to traditional policing) on?

I don't really get how something like that works.  Community Initiatives are all very well, but if somebody commits a rape or a murder then that calls for something a bit more than some panel of people sitting around figuring out an appropriate form of restorative justice.  Who would deal with the crime scene, gather the evidence and conduct the investigation?  Would they retain a small core of highly trained, experienced (and highly paid) officers to deal with more serious crime, or would they be looking for police departments in another county to plug the gap?

Minneapolis has been considering this concept for some time apparently but it's been fairly obscure.  It's not a new concept.  Technically, it's not really about completely eliminating the police department.  It's more about redistributing funds to other initiatives that help communities and reducing the force and decriminalizing some things so that the police aren't the ones who are expected to manage that are essentially unmanageable by them and which takes up a huge amount of their time and financial resources.  Like drug use -- just for example. There is a pretty good article in The Atlantic that explains the concept pretty well.  Excerpt:  "Portugal has decriminalized all drugs, largely removing police from the drug business, and it has been a success. Even the Portuguese police travel around the world trying to convince other people to do this. They’ve turned it over to public-health services. HIV-infection rates have fallen, overdoses have fallen, and civilization has not collapsed."  So there would be a smaller force which is more specialized and focused on serious crimes.  There are a number of rural areas that have defunded police departments.  But the idea is to shift responsibility for some things away from the police and into other programs and systems that will help manage those problems and free up police.

Given the current environment of division and tension, I don't see the concept working the way it's intended here though.  I think we would be inviting bigger issues if we do it here.  If we decriminalized all drugs and relied on the health system, we would be screwed for sure.  That system already sucks.  How is it going to handle the gigantic drug problem we have as a country?  But, I understand how breaking out some responsibilities would be helpful and cheaper.  We will see more guns in the hands of citizens though and, therefore, more deaths from domestic violence, accidents, just plain stupidity as well as the usual robberies, etc. 

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Redhead14

[Libby1]

18 minutes ago, Redhead14 said:

Given the current environment of division and tension, I don't see the concept working the way it's intended here though.  I think we would be inviting bigger issues if we do it here.  If we decriminalized all drugs and relied on the health system, we would be screwed for sure.  That system already sucks.  How is it going to handle the gigantic drug problem we have as a country?  We will see more guns in the hands of citizens too and, therefore, more deaths from domestic violence, accidents, just plain stupidity as well as the usual robberies, etc. 

 

Thanks for the response, Redhead.  The first thing that came to my mind was that there are probably already quite a few community groups that handle various issues.  Sometimes with faith groups, they can overstep the boundaries.  I've experienced that professionally before, where a woman was being physically abused by her husband and her pastor was very much of the view that they should just sort it out between them - even though she was at risk.  Ultimately if a victim of violence tells you they wants to resolve matters extra-judicially then unless they're a minor, there isn't much you can do.  There is always that worry, though, that in a relatively small community a lot of victims of crime are going to let themselves be strong armed out of seeking proper justice.

It seemed like such a dramatic thing - disbanding an entire police force.  Obviously there's a pretty terrible relationship with the police there though, especially in light of the George Floyd killing.

[Redhead14]

16 minutes ago, Libby1 said:

Thanks for the response, Redhead.  The first thing that came to my mind was that there are probably already quite a few community groups that handle various issues.  Sometimes with faith groups, they can overstep the boundaries.  I've experienced that professionally before, where a woman was being physically abused by her husband and her pastor was very much of the view that they should just sort it out between them - even though she was at risk.  Ultimately if a victim of violence tells you they wants to resolve matters extra-judicially then unless they're a minor, there isn't much you can do.  There is always that worry, though, that in a relatively small community a lot of victims of crime are going to let themselves be strong armed out of seeking proper justice.

It seemed like such a dramatic thing - disbanding an entire police force.  Obviously there's a pretty terrible relationship with the police there though, especially in light of the George Floyd killing.

There are a ton of "side" issues that will arise for sure.  I don't see all states/cities going this route.  This would be an initiative of gargantuan proportions as a country and what we are really talking about is changing our culture overall.  So, on one hand, I see the attraction and can understand wanting to go that way and could see myself supporting it because God knows we need to change something.  On the other hand, it scares the crap out of me because I know that there will be groups who will see to it that the efforts are trashed and take advantage of the reduced protection to cause havoc and continue destroying the country.  The smaller, more specialized force would be no match for fringe groups that try to run amuck.  Then, the Feds would have to send in the military and/or implement martial law and then people would have their panties in a bunch over that and so it goes . . .

Edited June 8, 2020 by Redhead14

[K.K.]

Yea, who needs law and order. When the cities are burning down and vengeful peeps are breaking down our doors and there’s no one to call for help, we can all just sit around singing kumbaya and fk da police! That’ll help a bunch. 

 

 

[gaius]

1 hour ago, K.K. said:

Yea, who needs law and order. When the cities are burning down and vengeful peeps are breaking down our doors and there’s no one to call for help, we can all just sit around singing kumbaya and fk da police! That’ll help a bunch.

I guess the idea is that if you get robbed instead of arresting the perpetrator the victim and perp sit down and have a talk together, hash it out. 

It would be delightful if they actually go through with that in Minnesota. But only because I don't live there. Hope they don't chicken out and just rename the police department or some token effort like that.

Edited June 8, 2020 by gaius

[Redhead14]

8 minutes ago, gaius said:

I guess the idea is that if you get robbed instead of arresting the perpetrator the victim and perp sit down and have a talk together, hash it out. 

It would be delightful if they actually go through with that in Minnesota. But only because I don't live there. Hope they don't chicken out and just rename the police department or some token effort like that.

No that is not the idea at all.  Technically, it's not really about completely eliminating the police department.  It's more about redistributing funds to other initiatives that help communities and reducing the force and decriminalizing some things so that the police aren't the ones who are expected to manage that are essentially unmanageable by them and which takes up a huge amount of their time and financial resources.  Like drug use -- just for example. There is a pretty good article in The Atlantic that explains the concept pretty well.  Excerpt:  "Portugal has decriminalized all drugs, largely removing police from the drug business, and it has been a success. Even the Portuguese police travel around the world trying to convince other people to do this. They’ve turned it over to public-health services. HIV-infection rates have fallen, overdoses have fallen, and civilization has not collapsed."  So there would be a smaller force which is more specialized and focused on serious crimes.  There are a number of rural areas that have defunded police departments.  But the idea is to shift responsibility for some things away from the police and into other programs and systems that will help manage those problems and free up police. There would still be enforcement for serious crimes like robberies, murders, etc.  Other responsibilities would be shifted to other services and systems so that the police maintain a smaller/more specialized force to deal with serious crimes.

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Redhead14

[stillafool]

On 6/7/2020 at 12:07 PM, preraph said:

If you want to be governed by dictatorial gangs instead of served and protected by trained and disciplined police, by all means defund the police and live under the governance of criminals instead.  With no law, we can all just get big automatic weapons and shoot anyone who comes and puts a flier on our porch.  If you want to see how well it's going letting criminals run a city, protected by crooked politicians, all you have to do it look to Chicago murder stats.  

You're correct Preraph but nothing teaches like experience.  I say let those cities who want to defund or do away with the Police do it and see how that works for them.

[central]

39 minutes ago, gaius said:

I guess the idea is that if you get robbed instead of arresting the perpetrator the victim and perp sit down and have a talk together, hash it out. 

It would be delightful if they actually go through with that in Minnesota. But only because I don't live there. Hope they don't chicken out and just rename the police department or some token effort like that.

What does "defund the police" mean to you?  I am not sure you know what the concept is - it's not the face value of the words.

[Redhead14]

20 minutes ago, stillafool said:

You're correct Preraph but nothing teaches like experience.  I say let those cities who want to defund or do away with the Police do it and see how that works for them.

"They" are not going to do away with the police entirely.  They are going to shift some funds to other systems and programs to address some of the underlying issues that contribute to higher crimes rates and reduce the police force so that there is a smaller crew of more specialized/well-trained officers to deal with the more serious crimes.  Like arrests for pot.  Do we really need to spend man hours and funds arresting every pot smoker???  Some things will be decriminalized.  There's an article by The Atlantic that explains all this pretty well.  And, I agree, let some of the more affected cities try it out before making it some kind of nationwide initiative.  But there would still be protection.  But as I said above, there will be groups who can and would try to take advantage of smaller staffing and become a bigger problem that's for sure. 

[gaius]

There are a lot of proposals being floated @Redhead14 but the Minneapolis city council isn't talking about defunding the police, they're talking about disbanding them.

While cops have often been forced to assume roles like social workers, and a shift away from the police and back to other professions in some cases might be helpful, it's not going to solve the problem that you still need cops to arrest people trying to pass counterfeit currency.

Edited June 17, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed personal attack.

[Redhead14]

10 minutes ago, gaius said:

There are a lot of proposals being floated @Redhead14 but the Minneapolis city council isn't talking about defunding the police, they're talking about disbanding them.

 

They are going to tear it down and rebuild it to something smaller and more specialized/trained which will require less funding and the rest of the funds that would normally have been allocated to them will be re-allocated to community initiatives and management systems.

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Redhead14

[gaius]

On 6/8/2020 at 2:10 PM, central said:

What does "defund the police" mean to you?  I am not sure you know what the concept is - it's not the face value of the words.

I guess you're not paying very close attention, so here's a tweet from the ACLU in Minnesota.

"ACLU of Minnesota

The ACLU-MN is pleased the Minneapolis City Council is going to disband the police department and focus on community alternatives. Any solution must rely heavily on input from BIPOC, who have been abused and ignored for so long —input that council members are promising to seek."

Edited June 17, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed disparaging comment.

[stillafool]

I would imagine any smart Policeman/woman is already updating their resume at this point.  The job is too dangerous as it is for the amount of pay they get and they will no longer be able to defend themselves or fellow officers.  Seems like a suicide mission.

Edited June 8, 2020 by stillafool