"Defunding" or "disbanding" police departments: Revisiting and redefining the role of policing in society

[Redhead14]

On 6/8/2020 at 2:18 PM, gaius said:

I guess you're not paying very close attention, so here's a tweet from the ACLU in Minnesota.

"ACLU of Minnesota

The ACLU-MN is pleased the Minneapolis City Council is going to disband the police department and focus on community alternatives. Any solution must rely heavily on input from BIPOC, who have been abused and ignored for so long —input that council members are promising to seek."

Their tweet doesn't give a complete picture. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed quoted disparaging remark.

[gaius]

5 minutes ago, Redhead14 said:

They are going to tear it down and rebuild it to something smaller and more specialized/trained which will require less funding. 

I don't think they're released a concrete proposal yet. If they have I didn't see it.

All they've said is that they're going to disband (bolded so @central doesn't get confused) and that being able to call the police when your home is burglarized is an issue of privilege. So it doesn't sound like that's something they're looking to guarantee the residents there. 

Mediation is one of the proposals I've seen floated, and yeah, I hope they do it!

[central]

On 6/8/2020 at 2:18 PM, gaius said:

I guess you're not paying very close attention, so here's a tweet from the ACLU in Minnesota.

"ACLU of Minnesota

The ACLU-MN is pleased the Minneapolis City Council is going to disband the police department and focus on community alternatives. Any solution must rely heavily on input from BIPOC, who have been abused and ignored for so long —input that council members are promising to seek."

Minneapolis may want to disband the police, but that is not what defunding means everywhere else.  'm not the only one who needs to check terms further, apparently.!  From an article today:

Quote

Defunding the police means shrinking the scope of police responsibilities and shifting most of what government does to keep us safe to entities that are better equipped to meet that need. It means investing more in mental-health care and housing, and expanding the use of community mediation and violence interruption programs.

Police abolition means reducing, with the vision of eventually eliminating, our reliance on policing to secure our public safety. It means recognizing that criminalizing addiction and poverty, making 10 million arrests per year and mass incarceration have not provided the public safety we want and never will.

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed quoted disparaging remark and response to same.

[Redhead14]

The City of Camden, New Jersey disbanded it's police force.  What they did was cut the funding down and then hired even more police to address the one of the highest crime rates in the country.  On May 1, 2013, Camden laid off its entire force and the county took over. The city paid the county $62 million for operational costs and leased its police administration building for $1. Critics decried the reorganization as nothing more than union busting. By laying off the officers and rehiring them as county employees, Camden was able to slash officer pay and cut benefits roughly in half. In all, average per officer costs were trimmed from $182,168 to $99,605, according to county figures.  The Camden County Police Department rehired most of the laid-off cops, along with nearly 100 other officers, but at much lower salaries and with fewer benefits than they had received from the city.  So, there were actually more cops . . .

This whole disband/defund concept is not new and there are a lot of ways it could go.

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Redhead14

[preraph]

Yeah, but they're not doing it to slash salaries most places.

These days with there being far more police killed then police killing citizens, you have to pay them more and more as that problem gets worse or no one wants to be one.  Down here in Texas, their pay is half what you say it is there now, though, but that's because it's cheaper to live here and better standard of living (bigger homes, etc.  I would say less traffic, but I wish.)

Edited June 17, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed group berating.

[Redhead14]

On 6/8/2020 at 3:50 PM, preraph said:

Yeah, but they're not doing it to slash salaries most places.

They are doing it to slash salaries/budgets so that they can re-allocate the slashed funds to other initiatives that will help manage the "issues" that drive the crime rates -- supposedly.  I think it's just a convenient time to be going down this road since Covid is messing with their budgets/economy but saying they need to slash budgets because of Covid isn't as "elegant" as saying they are cutting budgets to support BLM or helping to eradicate racism.  Maybe it's just a both/and but still bullsh*t.  Either that or the radical fringe groups are posturing for their push for anarchy through these protest organizers.

Edited June 17, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed quoted group berating.

[Ellener]

On 6/7/2020 at 4:39 PM, Woggle said:

Santa Claus will be real before that happens.

I believe in Santa Claus...well it depends what you mean by 'believe' of course.

Anyone read Terry Pratchett 'The Hogfather'? “All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."

It's a bit ironic so many people are worried about what if the police no longer protected them...

[Piddy]

People get hung up on the slogan and let the slogan become the issue.  What many are advocating for is a reallocation of funds to other programs.  I don't think people realize how big police budgets are.  In Los Angles it's 54% of the budget.   

Police really don't want to respond to mental health issues for example.  Allocating funds to other social programs makes sense.  So, 'Defund' needs to be replaced with 'Reallocate' funds which is a different conversation.

 

[lana-banana]

95% of police functions can and should be done by other administrative agencies anyway. I don't want the police to respond to someone having a mental health crisis or a drug overdose. Complex criminal and fraud cases are best left to analysts and investigators. 

It is very clear that our current post-9/11 system of giving the cops tanks and machine guns and billions of dollars is doing nothing to actually prevent crime. Crime is almost always the end product of community needs going unmet. Why not spend that money on actually helping the communities instead?

Edited June 9, 2020 by lana-banana

[schlumpy]

8 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

95% of police functions can and should be done by other administrative agencies anyway. I don't want the police to respond to someone having a mental health crisis or a drug overdose. Complex criminal and fraud cases are best left to analysts and investigators. 

It is very clear that our current post-9/11 system of giving the cops tanks and machine guns and billions of dollars is doing nothing to actually prevent crime. Crime is almost always the end product of community needs going unmet. Why not spend that money on actually helping the communities instead?

I think you should apply for an advisory position with the Minneapolis city council. At this moment in time they will probably welcome your ideas and you will get chance to see these ideas on display. A great opportunity for you. 

[Piddy]

33 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

I think you should apply for an advisory position with the Minneapolis city council. At this moment in time they will probably welcome your ideas and you will get chance to see these ideas on display. A great opportunity for you. 

One example of rethinking the Police is in Camden New Jersey which disbanded it's police department in 2012.  This could be the gold standard / blue print  for many communities to combat systemic racism.

Author: Matt Gregory

Published: 7:25 AM EDT June 4, 2020

Updated: 7:25 AM EDT June 4, 2020

 

CAMDEN, N.J. — After the protests, what is next? The entire country is calling for change, but what should be done?

"The model for policing in the future might be in Camden County, New Jersey. Less than a decade ago, the Camden City Police Department disbanded, and the new police force has created harmony with the community.

A little over two hours outside of D.C., Camden County Police marched alongside protesters and condemned the death of George Floyd at the hands of officers.

“Mr. Floyd should have never died at the hands of an officer,” Camden County Captain Zsakheim James said.“That should have never happened that way, the sanctity of life is what we are sworn to protect.”

Captain James will tell you, they just do things differently in Camden County. But it hasn’t always been that way.

“[10 years ago] we were running from gunshot to gunshot,” he said.

The county had a reputation for being one of the most violent areas in the country. The police and community relationship wasn’t great either. There were more than 60 excessive force complaints annually.

Until things changed in 2012.

“Everybody was laid off,” he explained. “Everyone was given the opportunity to join the new department.”

The new Camden County police department trained officers in a completely different manner.

“Every officer that graduates the police department immediately goes on a foot beat and gets introduced to the community,” Capt. James said.  “We knocked on doors, we introduced our selves to the community as the guardians we are.”

Camden County Officers continually undergo implicit bias training. They revamped the department’s “Use of Force” policy.

“The sanctity of life is paramount,” Capt. James explained. “Our use of force policy says we use the minimal amount of force to obtain our law enforcement objectives.”

That all sounds great. But, does it work?In less than 10 years the department went from more than 60 excessive force complaints down to just three. This decrease in complaints has helped in other areas.

“We’ve dropped crime to a record low. A 40 percent low. It’s the lowest it’s been in 50 years.”

Capt. James believes that the basis of their department, protecting the “sanctity of life first” is a great starting point for any police force.

“By no means are we saying we are the best, we just know what seems to work for us,” he said."

Edited June 9, 2020 by Piddy

[schlumpy]

I  believe in outcomes. If this has worked then why has it not been replicated? 

[lana-banana]

1 minute ago, schlumpy said:

I  believe in outcomes. If this has worked then why has it not been replicated? 

Yeah, why haven't the insanely powerful police unions and lobbyists for the defense industrial complex advocated for their own demise?

[TestyTestospherson]

Just now, schlumpy said:

If this has worked then why has it not been replicated?

It's a difficult concept to communicate in a sound bite, and I think this thread shows how difficult a concept it is to grasp. Plus, there are interests in keeping the status quo.

Look at the posts talking about anarchy, thinking that this means no one answers the phone at 911 or helps you out when you're being robbed or raped.

@Redhead14 did a wonderful job explaining the concept, yet as a small sample, look how confused we all were about what it actually meant.

[Piddy]

11 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

I  believe in outcomes. If this has worked then why has it not been replicated? 

Good question.  Just conjecture on my part, but change is a difficult thing where the status quo has remained for so long.  I would think now though that many municipalities will take a look at Camden and see if that model would work in their city. 

The militaristic  / warrior mentality by many police needs stop.  The community you're policing is not your enemy.  I love the motto that "the sanctity of life is paramount."  

Getting to know your community must be mandatory IMO. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Piddy

[Redhead14]

3 minutes ago, TestyTestospherson said:

It's a difficult concept to communicate in a sound bite, and I think this thread shows how difficult a concept it is to grasp. Plus, there are interests in keeping the status quo.

Look at the posts talking about anarchy, thinking that this means no one answers the phone at 911 or helps you out when you're being robbed or raped.

@Redhead14 did a wonderful job explaining the concept, yet as a small sample, look how confused we all were about what it actually meant.

Thanks, Testy.  I do, however, think that perhaps depending on where you are, a smaller police force could/would create some other problems that could be a little scary somewhere along the line. 

[Piddy]

   @Redhead14

Didn't mean to steal your thunder.  I hadn't read your post regarding the Camden Police Department story before putting my post up.  Another city that disbanded is Compton California. 

Although they contracted with the city of Los Angeles for police services.  As I said I'd like to see other municipalities to look at Camden and see what they could implement for themselves.  

Edited June 9, 2020 by Piddy

[Ellener]

5 hours ago, Piddy said:

People get hung up on the slogan and let the slogan become the issue.  What many are advocating for is a reallocation of funds to other programs.  I don't think people realize how big police budgets are.  In Los Angles it's 54% of the budget.   

Police really don't want to respond to mental health issues for example.  Allocating funds to other social programs makes sense.  So, 'Defund' needs to be replaced with 'Reallocate' funds which is a different conversation.

 

Good points.

'Defund' means re-organise to most people.

The 'holistic approach' to policing is great in theory but requires a lot of extra training and specialist units in practice. 

 

 

 

[Redhead14]

53 minutes ago, Piddy said:

   @Redhead14

Didn't mean to steal your thunder.  I hadn't read your post regarding the Camden Police Department story before putting my post up.  Another city that disbanded is Compton California. 

Although they contracted with the city of Los Angeles for police services.  As I said I'd like to see other municipalities to look at Camden and see what they could implement for themselves.  

It's not a competition But, the decision to go down this path needs to be evaluated carefully by each town/city/municipality that wants to consider it.  Frankly, though, I don't think it will eliminate racism or racism-based activities in police departments.  I don't feel that it's a rampant issue everywhere.  Yeah, there are a few who may be racist, but they can be dealt with on a case by case basis and, when racism is suspected, a microscope needs to be put on the discipline process so that they don't get away with it because they have friends in higher places, or helped because of some kind of brotherhood of police code, etc. 

Shifting some of the things the police departments deal with makes a lot of sense though and could work for other places regardless of whether they actually disband/defund.

Again, Minneapolis or Compton or Camden may have a higher racism "count" for whatever reason, so maybe this makes sense for them.  We shall see.

[Piddy]

46 minutes ago, Redhead14 said:

It's not a competition But, the decision to go down this path needs to be evaluated carefully by each town/city/municipality that wants to consider it.  Frankly, though, I don't think it will eliminate racism or racism-based activities in police departments.  I don't feel that it's a rampant issue everywhere.  Yeah, there are a few who may be racist, but they can be dealt with on a case by case basis and, when racism is suspected, a microscope needs to be put on the discipline process so that they don't get away with it because they have friends in higher places, or helped because of some kind of brotherhood of police code, etc. 

 

Nope not a competition.    What's happening is many black communities are over policed and are looked at differently that white communities. This has to change.  As far as racism being rampant in police departments.  I've known racist cops (they spoke like racists) who didn't act on their racism. 

This was back in the 1970's.  It's going to take a sustained effort to reprogram the mindset of many cops to change the way they see black people that they are responsible to serve and protect.  Yes, the code of silence needs to end and unions need to become part of the solution instead of the problem.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Piddy

[Haydn]

 

[preraph]

Police go where the most crimes and calls for help are.

[mark clemson]

True, but how they see their role, their dept policies, how they are trained, and how fully they are likely to be held accountable for any misdeeds they may commit will all factor into what actually happens once they show up. Particularly when you give a fallible human being a gun, taser, pepper spray, martial arts training, and handcuffs and authority to use them.

"Defund the police" is a slogan. I would think and hope anyone serious about "doing that" would mean restructuring policing in a meaningful way, rather than simply eliminating all policing (a pretty insane idea in much of the US). Nor do I think that forcing the reformed police in whatever form that takes to "bring a knife to a gun fight" would make any sense.

America is far from uniform and what works in some communities probably won't in others, however if there are examples of a more effective (AND more cost-effective) way, they should at least be looked at and considered. Right now it's pretty clear police in many areas have lost the backing of the communities they are supposed to "serve and protect," so making meaningful changes in areas where they're being called for by the local community is probably worth pursing, so long as it doesn't start to backfire.

Edited June 9, 2020 by mark clemson

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

give a fallible human being a gun, taser, pepper spray, martial arts training, and handcuffs and authority to use them.

Yes, everyone's a fallible human being. Everyone. 

The biggest skill in law enforcement is the ability to stop and listen. 'Never assume' was the mnemonic- it makes an ass (out of ) u (and ) me...

I wasn't joking when I said the first thing I did was give someone a pair of socks, or a good meal. 

Empathy is key to building bridges.

[ironpony]

Well why are we talking about defunding police departments, when it's not going to happen.  The government is not going to give into such a demand, cause they don't want to be seen as weak of course, so why are we talking about it, when it's not going to happen?