Race and standards of beauty

[Emilie Jolie]

5 hours ago, rjc149 said:

Did you note any non-white male celebrities being named before the 😍 emojies in the ensuing replies? I didn't. All of them conventionally handsome, wealthy, high-status male celebrities. All of them white. 

You must have missed a mini discussion on my personal hall pass (Idris Elba, ftr) but yeah, I forgot to add an emoji. My bad.

Less models of beauty that are minorities are in the public eye, because of, well, remnants of system racism.

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[Emilie Jolie]

1 hour ago, chillii said:

Doesn't have to mean a thing or is it suppose to be we can't even like who we like these days because l know where political correctness can shove that.

l love a certain car , or house , or type of person , or a specific look , or white chicks , so what, l like what l like , because that's what l like for whatever reason , nothing more to it . Something of anything is more popular than something else , so what . Just sounds like yet more pot stirring to me anything can be twisted into goods or bads.

You like what you like personally, yes, of course.

But a lot of it is unconscious social conditioning, and what sort role models we have been exposed to in the media or in films. 

It's only been in the last 40 years or so that we are seeing stories of main minority characters who are not villains, for instance; films like 'Black Panther' are quite recent. There have always been the odd minority celebrity outlier, but it's still all new. Very few minorities have presented the Oscars, for instance. I know you are Australian - minority characters on Home and Away and Neighbours are also quite recent.

It doesn't mean being attracted to a white person is an issue, it's just that you can explain it by more than it just being your personal taste.

If you've lived and worked in cosmopolitan environments, your tastes will reflect that.

[Haydn]

39 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

You must have missed a mini discussion on my personal hall pass (Idris Elba, ftr) but yeah, I forgot to add an emoji. My bad.

Less models of beauty that are minorities are in the public eye, because of, well, remnants of system racism.

 

If i was gay or in another life where i am, then I`d have loads of posters of Idris adorning my moody teenage walls.

Great taste Emile.

[Ollie180]

Standards of beauty have always varied country to country...

They did some study where they took the same photo of a girl and photoshopped it to be ‘perfection’ in multiple countries:

i.e. to fit the standard of beauty in Australia they gave her a suntan, reddish hair in Germany, blue eyes in Serbia, shiny hair & chiseled cheekbones in the U.K.... and so on and so on..

it’s always been that way! Look at the long-necked women of Myanmar! are they discriminating against folk with shorter necks, I Don’t believe so - you fancy who you fancy! Coincidentally is that something we’d find attractive run the U.K? No. Standards of beauty vary.

I’m not racist! I’ve lived all round the world, Asia, Africa, the South America’s... I’ve lived and worked and been friends with people of all races! My godson is half African! BUT.. I have never ever dated a woman who wasn’t Caucasian! Nor have I ever slept with or ‘made out‘ with a girl who wasn’t Caucasian...

...because at the end of the day you are sexually attracted to whoever your sexually attracted to!! (And to tell the truth, it’s not something I ever thought about until reading your post)

 

I guess when more people are sexually attracted to a certain thing it becomes that countries ‘standard of beauty’ in a way.. and hence you see it more commonly..

 

..do I however think ethnic minorities should be better represented in Hollywood - 100%! Same as I also believe they should be better represented in politics (and women), sports management (and women) and law/law enforcement (and women), because we are a diverse world that requires diversity at every level!

But I don’t believe (as a lad that grew up in inner London, spent time as a LOC, and has since the age of 17 has lived abroad longer than at home) I don’t believe that the media or the government or anyone else so removed from knowing me personally has effected what/who I am sexually attracted to!

[Emilie Jolie]

2 minutes ago, Ollie180 said:

because at the end of the day you are sexually attracted to whoever your sexually attracted to!! 

I think it's more about who you find attrative in general (standards of beauty) as opposed to who you are attracted to.

 

[Ollie180]

27 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

I think it's more about who you find attrative in general (standards of beauty) as opposed to who you are attracted to.

 

Interesting concept that, I think those two things are so closely related that they probably end up crossing over all the time!

..i guess it’s the same as saying someone’s “objectively attractive but not ‘your type’ “ but then if you go down that road you can find ‘standard of beauty’ in everyone no? Be it nice eyes, or a good hairline, or a great smile... I think you can find beauty in everyone!

But if I was a 15 year old lad putting a poster of a girl on the wall, then she’d be someone I was attracted too as opposed to objectively attractive 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Emilie Jolie]

14 minutes ago, Ollie180 said:

i guess it’s the same as saying someone’s “objectively attractive but not ‘your type’ “ but then if you go down that road you can find ‘standard of beauty’ in everyone no?

That's exactly right, yeah. But if all media shows you only one type of 'beauty' and call that 'standard universal beauty' when it evidently isn't - that is social conditioning. It's not necessarily a problem; it just naturally fluctuates as society changes. 

When you were 15, there were less posters of minority people than there are now - does that mean minorities back then were less attractive? No, of course not. Now there are more options, so that's bound to shift the goalposts of what 'universal standards of beauty' are.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Emilie Jolie
Typos

[chillii]

3 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

You like what you like personally, yes, of course.

But a lot of it is unconscious social conditioning, and what sort role models we have been exposed to in the media or in films. 

It's only been in the last 40 years or so that we are seeing stories of main minority characters who are not villains, for instance; films like 'Black Panther' are quite recent. There have always been the odd minority celebrity outlier, but it's still all new. Very few minorities have presented the Oscars, for instance. I know you are Australian - minority characters on Home and Away and Neighbours are also quite recent.

It doesn't mean being attracted to a white person is an issue, it's just that you can explain it by more than it just being your personal taste.

If you've lived and worked in cosmopolitan environments, your tastes will reflect that.

 

;l do live in an environment like that, and there's nothing social conditioning about me they couldn't condition me if they tried , and media and films, my God l can never believe  all the movie references around here , movies are la la land.  l like what l like because that's what l like. My ex was italian , l adore italian woman for many reasons, my partner is Portugese Russian , and l adore her too , because she has and is many many things l love in a woman.  Full stop.

What anyone else does or likes , l couldn't care less.

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by chillii

[Ollie180]

26 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

That's exactly right, yeah. But if all media shows you only one type of 'beauty' and call that 'standard universal beauty' when it evidently isn't - that is social conditioning. It's not necessarily a problem; it just naturally fluctuates as society changes. 

But that’s point.. can we define that media does influence what people are attracted to or does it reflect to what the audience in the locality of that media source are attracted to?

i think the truth probably isn’t so black and white, I think it probably has some influence, and more influence on some people than others!

 I think as a 35 year old I have been exposed to A LOT of diversity, I lived in Africa where I didn’t even have internet for the media to be influencing me.. my best friends come from all different ethnicities......but I still have only dated Caucasian women, and find myself attracted to Caucasian women.

 

I also don’t agree that media shows one type of beauty! I think it shows lots of types.. but I agree it doesn’t show lots of types ENOUGH!

33 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

When you were 15, there were less posters of minority people than there are now - does that mean minorities back then were less attractive? No, of course not. Now there are more options, so that's bound to shift the goalposts of what 'universal standards of beauty' are.

More options of universal beauty, sure! But you’re still going to go out and buy the one that appeals to your personal taste or type or whatever you want to call it!

 

(As it so happens I didn’t have any posters on the wall at 15, I feel like that objectifies people in a way that makes me personally uncomfortable...although I respect anyone else’s right to not be uncomfortable by that and to.. knock themselves out! ...but that’s a whole different topic anyway)

[Timshel]

8 hours ago, enigma32 said:

Just look over my thread if you wanna see how badly someone is treated for dating someone outside their race/from another country. A poster here even made a comment that I "obtained" her like she is some kind of animal or object to be purchased. That's one of the most racist, dehumanizing things I have ever heard and people here thought it was funny. 

Meh, but you mosey over to the younger man/older woman threads and insist the young guy could only be using her for sex or money.  A poster told my husband that he was scraping the bottom of the barrel based on nothing else except that I am older than him; lonely old lady I think he said.

People have prejudices that are based on life experiences, personal insecurities and education.  Prejudices are very revealing to a person's life and lifestyle and we all have them to some degree.  I think the important thing is to keep an open mind, to keep learning because when a person stops being flexible....that is when a crudgedy slow death begins, no matter what age.

Best to you enigma, I wish you and your future wife all the best.

[Emilie Jolie]

16 minutes ago, chillii said:

 

I do live in an environment like that, and their nothing social conditioning about me they couldn't condition me if they tried , l like what l like because that's what l like. My ex was italian , and l adore italian woman, my partner is Portugese Russian , and l adore her too. Because l do.

 

 

 

Given the bolded, you missed the point about the differences between your own tastes vs the definition of a socially constructed 'universal standard of beauty'. Never mind.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[Ollie180]

39 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

It's not necessarily a problem; it just naturally fluctuates as society changes. 

100% look at the Victorians in England, pale skin was deemed attractive so they hid from the sun! These days girls spend how much on fake tan or sun beds or whatever?

It changes 

[chillii]

23 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Given the bolded, you missed the point about your own tastes vs the definition of a socially constructed 'universal standard of beauty'. Never mind. 

l didn't miss anything , just replied to all l could be bothered with no offense. l don't need some long winded stock standard norm expla trying to tell me why l like what l like, they couldn't come close to even comprehending why l like what l like..

Edited June 11, 2020 by chillii

[rjc149]

3 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

You must have missed a mini discussion on my personal hall pass (Idris Elba, ftr) but yeah, I forgot to add an emoji. My bad.

Less models of beauty that are minorities are in the public eye, because of, well, remnants of system racism.

 

The thread got pretty long and sidetracked lol. I saw that, yes. 

It’s not only a general preference for white male sex symbols, but the lack of representation from other races — and thus the lack of choice. I can easily think of really hot female sex symbols who aren’t white. With males, not as many come to mind. White men are the top of the SMV status hierarchy. They are also the leaders of both business and society. They are the racial alphas. Hence why romantic pairings in Hollywood media, interracial or not, all have a white male common denominator. 

[Emilie Jolie]

I mean Godfrey Gao is lush, but yeah I totally agree, that was my whole earlier point. I'm white but have a culturally mixed ethnic background from both sets of grandparents, that is very rarely reflected in a positive light in the media, and I'm super alert to that too. The sad part is how blind to their own social conditioning a lot of people are. I don't dare say it for fear of backlack but it's a 2 word expression, it starts with a w and the last word rhymes with sacrilege 🤪😉

16 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

the lack of representation from other races

 

[chillii]

l grew up and still am around such a muliticultural mix no one bats an eyelid at anything, l'm a mix myself .

But yeah , what your saying in this last post is very obvious and no surprise at all. But if it's any consolation , l think a lot of people are too hard on themselves and think they're seeing a lot more than is actually there , when really it very often hasn't even crossed peoples minds. Your just you to most people.

 

[rjc149]

15 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

I mean Godfrey Gao is lush, but yeah I totally agree, that was my whole earlier point. I'm white but have a culturally mixed ethnic background from both sets of grandparents, that is very rarely reflected in a positive light in the media, and I'm super alert to that too. The sad part is how blind to their own social conditioning a lot of people are. I don't dare say it for fear of backlack but it's a 2 word expression, it starts with a w and the last word rhymes with sacrilege 🤪😉

 

You mean white zivilege? 

I think a broader and more profound question to be posed here is: is having racial dating preferences a form of racism? 

[rjc149]

53 minutes ago, Ollie180 said:

100% look at the Victorians in England, pale skin was deemed attractive so they hid from the sun! These days girls spend how much on fake tan or sun beds or whatever?

It changes 

Same in Asian cultures. Sun-tanned skin meant you toiled outside. Pale skin was a status symbol. It was also a deemed attractive for men to be overweight, again, because it was a status symbol. You had plenty of food. Coats were purposely cut very narrow to accentuate the belly. You'll see in a lot of portraits of wealthy men from pre-19th century, the guys are all portly and pear-shaped. Back in the days where your status really determined the quality, and the length, of your life, this mattered. 

[5x5]

54 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

Hence why romantic pairings in Hollywood media, interracial or not, all have a white male common denominator. 

Except they actually don't.

Eddie Murphy & Paige Butcher

Ice-T and Coco Austin

Joel Morton & Christine Lietz

Mike Colter & Iva Popovicova

Chris Very & Ellen Pompeo

Roger Cross & Josephine Jacob

Sydney Poitier & Joanna Shimkus

Ben Harper & Laura Dern

Cuba Gooding Jr & Sara Kapfer

James Earl Jones & Cecilia Hart

There's more of course, yet I figure the above sufficiently illustrates my point.

 

[Ollie180]

15 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

You mean white zivilege? 

I think a broader and more profound question to be posed here is: is having racial dating preferences a form of racism? 

White privilege is a thing, of course it is! I also think males have a certain privilege (I’ve never had to worry about how I dress on a night out or hold my keys in my hand while walking home off the last train)! 
The worlds full of certain privileges... many moons ago i was asked oh so nicely  by my 16 year old gfs dad to end things with her... I wasn’t  quote “from the right sort”

I have a lot of ‘privilege’ sure, I also can understand how it feels to sit on the other side of that metaphorical desk! Growing up with expectations to live down too not up too!

 

But there’s no way, no wayyy, anyone will ever convince me that having a racial preference when dating is racist!!! EVERYTHING to do with choosing who to date is a preference! 
 

Controlling or judging who others date - yes that’s racist! But equality and freedom should leave anyone allowed to date the person they want to date and are attracted to!

 

[Emilie Jolie]

34 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

 is having racial dating preferences a form of racism? 

Depends on how you've arrived at those preferences, I suppose.

Sometimes it's just lack of awareness / unconscious bias / not being exposed to different cultures, sometimes it's looking at the world thinking you're at the centre of it (self-centeredness is a problem in itself, but it is not racism), sometimes it's unconsciously repeating the same relationship patterns unconsciously, sometimes yeah it's because you are a racist.

But honestly, if you can't come up with one person of a different skin tone to yours that you find attractive, it's worth self-evaluating beyond 'because that's how I like things to be', in my opinion (general you). 

Now that society is changing, I'm assuming interracial relationships representing various ethnicities will be more mainstream. I hope so, anyway.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[rjc149]

6 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

Except they actually don't.

Eddie Murphy & Paige Butcher

Ice-T and Coco Austin

Joel Morton & Christine Lietz

Mike Colter & Iva Popovicova

Chris Very & Ellen Pompeo

Roger Cross & Josephine Jacob

Sydney Poitier & Joanna Shimkus

Ben Harper & Laura Dern

Cuba Gooding Jr & Sara Kapfer

James Earl Jones & Cecilia Hart

There's more of course, yet I figure the above sufficiently illustrates my point.

 

I’ve heard of maybe 2 or 3 of those names, and I meant pairings on screen.

And I’m not saying that doesn’t exist. It’s just very uncommon.

[Piddy]

Let's not forgot that for years black male actors weren't given leads in movies.  Sidney Poitier comes to mind as one who broke thru as a leading black actor back in the late 1950's and 1960's. 

Movies like The Defiant Ones (1958), Raisin in The Sun (1961), In the Heat of the Night (1967) and Guess Who's Coming to Dinner (1967) were some of his hit movies.  Same goes for black actresses.  For a black actress I always liked Pam Grier. 🙂

 

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Piddy

[Ollie180]

2 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Depends on how you've arrived at those differences, I suppose. Sometimes it's just lack of awareness / unconscious bias / not being exposed to different cultures, sometimes it's looking at the world thinking you're at the centre of it (self-centeredness is a problem in itself, but it is not racism), sometimes yeah it's because you are a racist.

Where’s the option that says.. it’s because however much exposure you have to every race or ethnicity under the sun.. people of xyz race are the one that turn you on / get you hot under the collar / spark a sexual attraction in you!

 

If a girl is only attracted to a ‘rugby build’ a big guy.... is she discriminating against smaller, thinner men? ...or does she just have a preference

[Emilie Jolie]

Could just be repeating the same inconscious patterns in relationships, sure.

People are different, and they arrive at their dating preferences differently.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Emilie Jolie