Tearing down statues

[schlumpy]

1 hour ago, SincereOnlineGuy said:

SO IF WE as a society could sit down and figure out ways to cease our life-long urge to cross-identify  The Poor  with mere persons of color  THEN we would accomplish SO much on behalf of ourselves, really...   that the entire world would be a better place because of our efforts.

Very thoughtful post. I'm starting to get some insight into your logic linking. Lots to be thoughtful about.

Forgive me for cherry picking.

If you could keep politicians from pandering to poor black people at every rally and if you keep the government from promoting poverty programs specifically aimed at the group you are talking about, then you might go long way into removing the image of black people being tied so strongly to the word poor. As long as that message is being burned into the conscience of society on a daily basis, sitting down to talk will have little effect.

[NuevoYorko]

12 hours ago, gaius said:

The Confederacy and the Third Reich aren't really in the same category so I wouldn't compare a statue of Lee to a statue of Hitler @NuevoYorko 

If you want to make the sole litmus test of someone's legacy be their view on race and slavery then you might as well rip down statues of almost everyone who lived in the pre civil war years, and a lot of people afterward as well.

One more try:

The Confederate States of America were seceding from the United States of America.  When the Civil War was underway, the soldiers of the Confederacy were NOT Americans, but an antidemocratic nation-state with its own president.   They were committing treason and were traitors to the USA.  360,000 American soldiers were killed because of it (and 280,000 CSA soldiers). The whole conflation of symbols and personages from this effort with "patriotism" is ridiculous.  

More importantly, regardless of post-Civil War spin, deemed necessary to re-unite the states, the core purpose of the CSA was permanent maintenance of the institution of  slavery, "the negro's natural condition."  Not "state rights."   This is easily confirmed; not posting links because of lag time.

Immediately following the Civil War, under the presidency of Andrew Johnson, a strong proponent of "states' rights,"   the "black codes" were enacted throughout the South.  Johnson vetoed the Civil Rights bill.  Etc.  And the fine traditions are being held onto to this day.  

Symbols created and used to to laud all of that do not belong in places of honor.  

 

 

[NuevoYorko]

7 hours ago, Libby1 said:

The nazi statues were, as I mentioned in an earlier post, removed immediately after the war on the orders of allies and under the denazification programme.  There were still around 8.5 million nazis living in German at that time, and the primary goal was to prevent any of them from attaining positions of power or influence.  I obviously can't remember the Boston Tea Party, but I remember coverage of the fall of the Berlin wall.  There was no controversy around that, so far as I can recall.  The removal of border controls was seen as a joyful occasion, and a lot of the crowds removing the wall were looking for souvenirs of a historic occasion.

If we remove symbols of the confederacy and pro-slavery, there will still be millions of racists living in the country.  But, our government / society will no longer be honoring the institution of slavery, "black codes," Jim Crow, etc.  through elevated placement of its symbols.

The Berlin Wall was certainly a controversial symbol.  I'm sure that citizens would have ravaged it, but they would have been shot.  Too bad we in the USA aren't at the point where removal of the statues and  Confederate flag would be celebrated. 

I'm not a proponent of what's going on with the statues etc. only for the reason that it has become a mob activity and the whole intent and symbolic meaning behind the people of a nation removing symbols that undermine the very purpose of the nation (and humanity) is clearly lost because of that; ergo this thread.  

I am out of patience with talking about how outrageous  it is that people are angry and acting out.  There are giant posts about this and endless conjecture.  Americans are excitedly discussing killing the vandals.  Meanwhile,  the whole historical and current context that has brought us to this point are of no interest at all.  

The USA has reached a breaking point and what you are seeing is a symptom of that.  

[Ellener]

On 6/22/2020 at 11:36 AM, elaine567 said:

Yes, but a lot of "protesters took the law into their own hands and dunked the statue in the harbour...

That does tend to be the way of protesting...I understand the UK police published their photos and wish to talk to them about it all.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, NuevoYorko said:

The USA has reached a breaking point and what you are seeing is a symptom of that.  

A tipping point. America won't be broken so long as we keep striving to be better. There are some fabulous people here quietly get on with what needs to be done, especially now.

1 hour ago, NuevoYorko said:

I am out of patience with talking about how outrageous  it is that people are angry and acting out. 

It's just that some people can't say 'I may be wrong...' or will be inflexible about wanting to be 'the majority'.

Backing off and going away and thinking about it some more or responding with anger to someone who cannot hear you...

I'm not joking when I say kindness is everything! 

[carhill]

E/O coming on federal statues and monuments........

 

[SincereOnlineGuy]

18 hours ago, gaius said:

The Confederacy and the Third Reich aren't really in the same category so I wouldn't compare a statue of Lee to a statue of Hitler @NuevoYorko 

 

They ARE very near to being in the same category...   just put to rest at different stages of their evolution.

 

Each had a very clear assessment/premise of  (some human blood being somehow better than other human blood ) despite how wrong their premise was.

 

Each committed atrocities as the direct result of this shared premise.

 

One entity merely attempted to conquer half of a country, while the other attempted to conquer half of the world, each with the core motive of asserting the superiority of some human blood (of their own selection) being better than other human blood.

 

Had each been allowed to continue without opposition, who can say which Empire would have been larger when it all ended?

[NuevoYorko]

23 hours ago, Ellener said:

A tipping point. America won't be broken so long as we keep striving to be better. There are some fabulous people here quietly get on with what needs to be done, especially now.

America IS broken, and I'm afraid the fabulous quite people, though admirable, are not prevailing at this point.  Just like many cultures before this one that have become deeply corrupted and lost their way,  this one is so fractured that a crisis is the only thing that might bring things to "ground zero" enough that we can do better.  

That does not have to look like riots,  concentration camps, Paris burning, atom bombs etc. but I don't think that calm behind the scenes acts of kindness pack the necessary punch at times like these.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, NuevoYorko said:

I don't think that calm behind the scenes acts of kindness pack the necessary punch at times like these.

You are eloquent and thoughtful and knowledgeable with your passion for America.

Some people will be marching, some people will be writing, some people will be tending to the sick and poor etc.

Whatever you do in life do it with kindness is my general feeling, don't accidentally or deliberately harm someone else. 

 

[preraph]

There are two laws on the books to protect Federal statues/landmarks, and Trump is planning on using them.  This won't affect the cities.  10-year max prison term on the federal.  Destroying statues doesn't change history -- in fact, it just delays changing things for the better because it creates more hate.  

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, preraph said:

There are two laws on the books to protect Federal statues/landmarks, and Trump is planning on using them.  This won't affect the cities.  10-year max prison term on the federal.  Destroying statues doesn't change history -- in fact, it just delays changing things for the better because it creates more hate.  

 

I think the president is pushing his luck if he thinks Americans will accept totalitarian government. The more he acts like a dictator the more people will be against him.

There are lots of quiet movements going on to re-emphasise our history Rename the Edmund Pettus Bridge after Rep John Lewis in Georgia for example is an online petition. People have been asking for it to be renamed since 1965 so it's time others listened.

 

[Ellener]

Democracies everywhere seem to be responding to the statue issue https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-53156106?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk&link_location=live-reporting-story

[pepperbird]

On 6/11/2020 at 8:53 PM, jspice said:

Removing statues is an exercise in futility. It’s an attempt to paper over the cracks. The cracks are still there, you just can’t see them. 
 

Removing statues doesn’t change people’s mindsets. 
They have done egregious things, which need to be remembered if we’re ever going to move behind those atrocities. Wiping out the crap parts of history just means more denial. 
 

When looking at art everyone attributes their own interpretation. Same with these relics. 
I’ll choose to see it as a time I never want to go back to, while Mr.  Or Mrs. Confederate will look at it and wistfully long for the good old days. 
 

its like the empty gesture by Lady Antebellum changing their name due to the connotation of “antebellum “.  It means nothing. It’s a PR stunt. 

Removing a statue doesn’t mean the whole world is now magically not prejudiced.  

for what it's worth, I think it;s actually extremely important that remnants of the past remain so that people don't forget. That doesn't have to equate with glorifying the past, instead, they can serve as reminders of what can happen when people get lazy and let evil stand.

They can also serve as reminders that anyone can be a victim, and it's so easy to slide into will full blindness.

Years ago, I studied the T4 Aktion as part of a uni. course. It was incredibly sobering and quite humbling to know what at one time, a doctor or nurse would have looked at someone like me and my kids and felt that we were "life unworthy of life" and been either left to starve to death or outright murdered. All because have physical/ developmental challenges.

It wasn't even a mass killing most of the time, but rather a doctor or nurse, trained to uphold and preserve life, who personally gave the injection, withheld food, or hooked up the hose to the exhaust pipe of the van. They would have personally looked into he eyes of the individual they were killing.

I just can't get my head around that.
 

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by pepperbird

[sothereiwas]

Another statue goes down:

"Hans Christian Heg was a Norwegian American journalist, anti-slavery activist, politician and soldier, best known for leading the Scandinavian 15th Wisconsin Volunteer Regiment on the Union side in the American Civil War. He died of the wounds he received at the Battle of Chickamauga."

*Slow clap*

[jspice]

8 hours ago, pepperbird said:

for what it's worth, I think it;s actually extremely important that remnants of the past remain so that people don't forget. That doesn't have to equate with glorifying the past, instead, they can serve as reminders of what can happen when people get lazy and let evil stand.

They can also serve as reminders that anyone can be a victim, and it's so easy to slide into will full blindness.

Years ago, I studied the T4 Aktion as part of a uni. course. It was incredibly sobering and quite humbling to know what at one time, a doctor or nurse would have looked at someone like me and my kids and felt that we were "life unworthy of life" and been either left to starve to death or outright murdered. All because have physical/ developmental challenges.

It wasn't even a mass killing most of the time, but rather a doctor or nurse, trained to uphold and preserve life, who personally gave the injection, withheld food, or hooked up the hose to the exhaust pipe of the van. They would have personally looked into he eyes of the individual they were killing.

I just can't get my head around that.
 

 

And isn’t it crazy how we’ve come full circle with cries of “sacrifice the weak” these. 
Old people and the infirm should be the casualties of Corona so that the “strong” can go ahead and get that economy rolling. 
 

Just a different kind of euthanasia. How the world turns is amazing. 

[schlumpy]

43 minutes ago, jspice said:

Just a different kind of euthanasia. How the world turns is amazing. 

I think calling what is a natural process and has occurred for thousands of years "a different kind of Euthanasia" a bit harsh. 

How would you have prevented it when it's has never been prevented before?

Your reluctance to share your plan could get you labeled with the same moniker.
 

[major_merrick]

Removing the statues is removing history.  A symbol of the new Revolution.  Not the Revolution I was wanting, either.  This is going to be the crazy French 1700's style revolution.

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed political comments in non-political forum.

[gaius]

One thing I think we should all agree on at least. That it would be better if any statue removals were done through a public debate process rather than letting an angry mob pull them down.

The statue of Lincoln towering over the kneeling slave in DC that they're currently trying to destroy isn't just a symbol of a different time. It's something that has an immense amount of history itself. Former slaves helped pay for it. Fredrick Douglas spoke at it's unveiling. To just destroy it would be like what the Taliban did in Afghanistan to many of the cultural monuments there that they didn't like.

At the very least it should be in a museum somewhere, if not occupying a public space. 

[Prudence V]

People project the hero narratives they draw strength from onto statues. If Churchill was really valued for his role in fighting Nazism, why do we not have more statues of Stalin everywhere, since it was he rather than Churchill who defeated the Nazis? 
 

a useful point was made by a Polish friend. Auschwitz serves as a memorial, in a very different way to, say, the statue of Leopold II in Belgium. The difference is, it was erected by the victims, not the perpetrators. Had the Congolese chosen to memorialise their slaughter, they’d likely have chosen something closer to the Auschwitz memorial than the Belgian statue. What is memorialised, and how it is framed, matters. If you want to remember slavery, have the descendants of slaves decide on how to commemorate it. I doubt they’d choose statues that glorify the slave traders. 
 

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed political link in non-political forum.

[Piddy]

I agree with David Blight who is a history professor at Yale.  Replace these monuments to the Confederacy and replace them with monuments to Emancipation. 

Again, most of these statues were put up in the 20th century (1890-1950's).  Which coincided with the Jim Crow era (segregation)  There's roughly 700 Confederate monuments in the country and a total of 1500 symbols of the Confederacy in public spaces.

Also, some of these symbols of the Confederacy like the Confederate battle flag were in response to the civil rights movement.  It's nice to see some of these states taking down these Confederate symbols from their state flags.

Time to turn the page and start to memorialize the people who fought to end slavery and not the people who fought to continue slavery.  Again, if you want to  honor the war dead, do that in a museum or cemetery for soldiers and not the public square.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Piddy

[Weezy1973]

I honestly didn’t know people felt this strongly about statues, on either side. If all statues on the planet magically disappeared, my life wouldn’t change at all. Why is this such a hot button issue for people?

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

I honestly didn’t know people felt this strongly about statues, on either side. If all statues on the planet magically disappeared, my life wouldn’t change at all. Why is this such a hot button issue for people?

It's not about the actual statues, but what they stand for in people's minds. A statue is erected to uphold or honor a person or ideal, and many of these statues were honouring people and ideology no longer accepted.

Maybe we should do what many places did after 9/11 in the US, there were Art Walls everywhere where people could express themselves? Art needs to be a healing motivational force in a community and represent the people who actually live, work or study there.

 

 

 

[stillafool]

On 6/22/2020 at 10:22 PM, gaius said:

If you want to make the sole litmus test of someone's legacy be their view on race and slavery then you might as well rip down statues of almost everyone who lived in the pre civil war years, and a lot of people afterward as well.

I agree.  Why not start with knocking down Planned Parenthoods.  After all the founder, Margaret Sanger was a notorious racist who invented PP to exterminate the black race and the disabled.  Why are they still standing?

[Weezy1973]

12 minutes ago, stillafool said:

I agree.  Why not start with knocking down Planned Parenthoods.  After all the founder, Margaret Sanger was a notorious racist who invented PP to exterminate the black race and the disabled.  Why are they still standing?

Are there statues of Margaret Sanger? Or are talking about actual Planned Parenthood buildings?

[carhill]

Statues erected on public property with public funds, they represent the toil of the people and the democratic process of approval, construction and erection. I might not agree with the message or image the statue represents but I do respect the democratic process in a free country, one many have died for to retain. We'll be celebrating one such marked day in history in a couple days, and there are many statues representing that time in our history and those who toiled and died to give us the opportunities and freedom we have today. I see this current milieu as a time of decision, do we want to continue as a country of rule of law and mutual respect or do we wish to go down the road of mob rule, anarchy and violence?

I ordered a new flag, made by Americans in America, and it will be arriving today and proudly flown over my modest forest abode this weekend. The local statues will remain outside of jeopardy as our local citizens respect the history and process by which they came to be. I will be mindful of one in Washington DC that is especially meaningful to my family... and which could be construed as quite racist and indicative of a low time in our history by those so inclined to such thoughts and philosophies.