Tearing down statues

[simpycurious]

It's NOT ok to immerse yourself into criminal behavior.  When you destroy, steal or vandalize someone else's property then you have GONE PAST the point of a demonstration that is meant to provoke thought and possibly change. 

[Tamfana]

2 hours ago, schlumpy said:

Don't forget the Taliban.

 

And people tearing down the statue of Saddam Hussein after the US war with him.  The conquering Roman Christians damaged and destroyed statutes and religious sites.  For centuries people have destroyed statues and memorials to eventually "conquered" leaders, political systems and belief systems.  

[rjc149]

6 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

A crusade? Militant victimhood? An overreaction? All this for a mere statue? 

 Is there a special way people need to ask for 'racial equality' that wouldn't hurt your feelings? Seems like no way to fight for equal rights is the correct way.

Let's make one thing clear lol -- I'm not the one with the hurt feelings. That sort of underlies my point. I'm not getting swept up in the emotion and the pontificating and selective, self-induced outrage over statues. I'm trying to opine rationally. 

You're sympathizing with acts of vigilante vandalism, destroying the visual reminders of history and culture, along with people's businesses and property (as in the US) as "symbolic of progress." I'm calling BS on that. I think that's a dangerous slope to slide down on. It has no boundaries or rationale to it. In this country there are sh-tloads of statues of racists, bigots, a**h***s of all shape and color. "One tiny step forward" what -- indiscriminate mass-destruction of property across the nation? Censorship, sterilization, and revision of history? Because to me, that's where statue-toppling goes. 

And personally, I do not feel empowerment through victimhood is a productive road to racial harmony and justice. I do not believe emphasizing blame/victim narratives to anger people into believing they are entitled to recompense makes things equal, or that our societies must now must go about in perpetual contrition for the deeds of our pasts. The sense of moral superiority and entitlement to reparations of these modern-day "activists" stifles any sympathy to their otherwise sympathetic message. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by rjc149

[sothereiwas]

22 hours ago, Piddy said:

These statues represent hate, oppression / subjugation for many people.  These statues belong in a museum and not in the public square.  

Using mob violence to accomplish that goal isn't a good thing however. 

[sothereiwas]

2 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

If not now, when?

Maybe after a lawful process decides it should be so. 

[rjc149]

1 hour ago, serial muse said:

There really isn't a good reason to cling to them, not when one takes a good hard look at the issue. I just don't see any good, rational arguments in their favor. And the emotional arguments in their favor are...deeply fraught, let's say.

I have no problem with a statue of Robert E Lee being removed from a place of public office. Much supported the removal of Confederate battle flags from government capitol buildings, or like as a Catholic, I support the removal of Christian imagery from court houses. 

On the lawn of my church parish, there is a large crucifixion statue. It overlooks a nearby public park. Now, if you have activists and protesters going after that, I'm going to get angry. 

My point is -- statue-toppling and "righteous vandalism" by the BLM movement is totally indiscriminate. Where do we draw the lines? Or do we just rip down any and every last vestige of our history that offends, or may offend someone? 

[schlumpy]

1 hour ago, Cookiesandough said:

They trashed/vandalized a lot of statues and monument circle memorial. Epicenter of our city with a lot of memories not attached to racial injustice

They are going to create a just and equal society whether you agree or not.

It's never been done in history but these people are going to do it. They are the same people that tried ushering in the "Worker's Paradise" in Russia. They are the same people who marched for Mao during the cultural revolution. They are the same people that created the Killing Fields in Cambodia. They are always present and always willing to exploit any opportunity.

[sothereiwas]

2 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

They are going to create a just and equal society whether you agree or not.

It's never been done in history but these people are going to do it. They are the same people that tried ushering in the "Worker's Paradise" in Russia. They are the same people who marched for Mao during the cultural revolution. They are the same people that created the Killing Fields in Cambodia. They are always present and always willing to exploit any opportunity.

Surely it will work out better this time. Those other tries, it just wasn't done right you see. 

[Emilie Jolie]

You misunderstand me. I'm not actively advocating anything. My personal feelings on this are irrelevant. As I said in my latest post, those who are now enraged by the toppling of these statues weren't giving them a second thought only 2 weeks ago. As soon as it started affected our guilty conscience, we all became super invested in educational plaques and museums and reflecting true history. That's hypocritical.

Without this, that discussion right here, right now wouldn't have been happening.

You don't like victimhood? Don't create victims. That's the easiest solution to the problem. Yet here we are. It doesn't matter how you or l think how best survivors of endemic racism should deal with their issues. We're at this point now because we neglected to meet them halfway all the other times they wanted to work together on this. Too late, now, the time for magnanimously 'sympathising' has passed. We can help make it better, or we can pontificate on activist vandalism.

26 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

Let's make one thing clear lol -- I'm not the one with the hurt feelings. That sort of underlies my point. I'm not getting swept up in the emotion and the pontificating and selective, self-induced outrage over statues. I'm trying to opine rationally. 

You're sympathizing with acts of vigilante vandalism, destroying the visual reminders of history and culture, along with people's businesses and property (as in the US) as "symbolic of progress." I'm calling BS on that. I think that's a dangerous slope to slide down on. It has no boundaries or rationale to it. In this country there are sh-tloads of statues of racists, bigots, a**h***s of all shape and color. "One tiny step forward" what -- indiscriminate mass-destruction of property across the nation? Censorship, sterilization, and revision of history? Because to me, that's where statue-toppling goes. 

And personally, I do not empowerment through victimhood is a productive road to racial harmony and justice. I do not believe emphasizing blame/victim narratives to anger people into believing they are entitled to recompense makes things equal, or that our societies must now must go about in perpetual contrition for the deeds of our pasts. The sense of moral superiority and entitlement to reparations of these modern-day "activists" stifles any sympathy to their otherwise sympathetic message. 

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[rjc149]

1 hour ago, serial muse said:

But it forces people to reckon with who they're glorifying and why - and it forces them, perhaps, to see these statues through other peoples' eyes - in this case specifically through Black peoples' eyes. That gaining of perspective is a thing that should have happened long ago.

If you're thinking you'll "open the eyes" of southerners, who have been brainwashed with the Lost Cause since childhood, by vandalizing and removing the statues of their heroes and war dead, you'll have things like Charlottesville where they'll start plowing through crowds of protesters with cars. 

The sentiment of seeking to educate people on what the Confederacy was, and what it stood for, is entirely sympathetic. I support that 100%. It was a dark, reprehensible episode of our history. But I think education and not statue-toppling is the way to go. The Lost Cause is already a revisionist version of history, and I don't think symbolic counter-revisionism will get brainwashed "slavery had nothing to do with it!" people to see that. 

[sothereiwas]

2 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

As I said in my latest post, those who are now enraged by the toppling of these statues weren't given them a second thought only 2 weeks ago

It's the lawless behavior that offends me. I think statues are a waste of resources and shouldn't be publicly funded at all. 

[rjc149]

15 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

As I said in my latest post, those who are now enraged by the toppling of these statues weren't given them a second thought only 2 weeks ago.

Yeah, and about 2 months ago, people didn't seemed to be too outraged by it standing there either. 

15 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

You don't like victimhood? Don't create victims. That's the easiest solution to the problem. 

So -- what am I supposed to apologize? Look. From the bottom of my heart, I am sorry for the racism perpetrated by my society and my European ancestors. Since I don't have a time machine to go back and stop the slave trade, as a token of my apology, you are entitled to vandalize statues and property as you see fit to seek justice. 

So we can perpetuate blame/victim narratives, we can empower victims to act out of line, we can Russell Brand all we want "we have problems, we have problems, we have problems, what's the solution? YOU figure it out, all I know is we have problems."

Or we can make a collective effort to educate younger generations on who people like Edward Colston were, how his participation in something evil and reprehensible allowed him to be a philanthropist, and how this racism and injustice plays into Bristol's history and complex legacy. Because you can also just remove it all entirely in self-righteous rage. Then go across the country, inch by inch, until everything offensive is in the river. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by rjc149

[sothereiwas]

1 minute ago, rjc149 said:

I am sorry for the racism perpetrated by my society and my European ancestors.

Well actually those Europeans bought the slaves from african slavers. When the Atlantic slave market ended, this dropped the prices of slaves but in many places in Africa the slave trade actually grew due to local demand. So yeah, plenty of blame to go around, but in America we sacrificed a lot of lives, mostly white, to end slavery within our borders. The debt is paid. 

[Ellener]

The poet Shelley wrote this in 1818:

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

From Wiki:

The colossal statue of Ramesses II dates back 3,200 years, and was originally discovered in six pieces in a temple near Memphis. Weighing some 83-tonne (82-long-ton; 91-short-ton), it was transported, reconstructed, and erected in Ramesses Square in Cairo in 1955. In August 2006, contractors relocated it to save it from exhaust fumes that were causing it to deteriorate.The new site is near the future Grand Egyptian Museum.

All of our artifacts have a multifarious history eventually.

[rjc149]

2 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

The Bristol statue hasn't been destroyed, it'll be put in a museum so from our end, it sounds like the people of Bristol have managed to deal with it in a way that works for them there. That's the main thing.

The people of Bristol voted and came to a democratic decision on the statue? 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, rjc149 said:

The people of Bristol voted and came to a democratic decision on the statue? 

They will. It's a very civilised city these days! 

[Emilie Jolie]

2 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

Yeah, and about 2 months ago, people didn't seemed to be too outraged by it standing there either. 

So -- what am I supposed to apologize? Look. From the bottom of my heart, I am sorry for the racism perpetrated by my society and my European ancestors. Since I don't have a time machine to go back and stop the slave trade, as a token of my apology, you are entitled to vandalize statues and property as you see fit to seek justice. 

What are you apologising to me for? (I mean I'll take it, don't get me wrong, I'll pass it on to relevant parties 🤪).

Nobody has a time machine, what's done is done, but at the very least don't add insult to injury and reduce what is happening at the moment to woke vandalism or whatever. It's not. It's a culmination of decades upon decades of frustration, sadness, humiliation and mistreatment ignored by most of the white collective, who have created this monster in the first place. There is no getting away from that.

Statues can be rebuilt, they are just stuff.

Giving people their due rights with humility is priceless.

[Emilie Jolie]

2 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

The people of Bristol voted and came to a democratic decision on the statue? 

There will be public consultations taking place on what to do next in place of the statue, which I gather will be taken to a museum, as is standard.

[rjc149]

2 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Statues can be rebuilt, they are just stuff.

Giving people their due rights with humility is priceless.

Yes statues can be rebuilt. My concern is that what are we limiting 'woke vandalism to?' Which statues? Which memorials? Which priceless artifacts of history and culture? Anything that's offensive.. or? Because if you look at anything long enough, someone's going to get butthurt about it, and we must now legitimize their outrage, because we're woke now. There are no boundaries to it. 

[rjc149]

2 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

There will be public consultations taking place on what to do next in place of the statue, which I gather will be taken to a museum, as is standard.

There didn't appear to be a public consultation allowing a mob of self-aggrandizing young agitators ripping it down and throwing it in the river. 

[Emilie Jolie]

1 minute ago, rjc149 said:

Yes statues can be rebuilt. My concern is that what are we limiting 'woke vandalism to?' Which statues? Which memorials? Which priceless artifacts of history and culture? Anything that's offensive.. or? Because if you look at anything long enough, someone's going to get butthurt about it, and we must now legitimize their outrage, because we're woke now. There are no boundaries to it. 

The boundaries will be set when we all can engage productively, at least I hope, instead of showing glib concern for stuff we didn't care about 5 minutes ago.

 

3 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

There didn't appear to be a public consultation allowing a mob of self-aggrandizing young agitators ripping it down and throwing it in the river. 

There was no consultation either on institutional racism and police brutality.🤷‍♀️

[sothereiwas]

15 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Statues can be rebuilt, they are just stuff.

Allowing lawless behavior without significant consequence is not a worthy endeavor. 

[Emilie Jolie]

Just now, sothereiwas said:

Allowing lawless behavior without significant consequence is not a worthy endeavor. 

A bit like allowing racism to flourish for decades then, perhaps...

[sothereiwas]

21 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

A bit like allowing racism to flourish for decades then, perhaps...

Yeah, so you're agreeing both would be bad I take it?

[Ellener]

Back in the UK preservation had to find a balance, there is so much historic architecture for example but when structures become unsound even if they are beautiful or notable they can't all be saved.

Organisations such as The National Trust and English Heritage were formed ( the first in 1895, the second 1984 ) to save and preserve many notable historic sites.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Ellener
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