Tearing down statues

[Ellener]

None of these events are new ideas, Tony Shafrazi spray painted “KILL LIES ALL” on Picasso's Guernica ( itself a depiction of war atrocities ) in 1974, after a US army war criminal went unconvicted; Shafrazi was arrested and charged and is a successful art dealer in NY now:

"I wanted to bring the art absolutely up to date, to retrieve it from art history and give it life. Maybe that's why the Guernica action remains so difficult to deal with. I tried to trespass beyond that invisible barrier that no one is allowed to cross; I wanted to dwell within the act of the painting's creation, get involved with the making of the work, put my hand within it and by that act encourage the individual viewer to challenge it, deal with it and thus see it in its dynamic raw state as it was being made, not as a piece of history."

 

[Libby1]

4 hours ago, rjc149 said:

Yes statues can be rebuilt. My concern is that what are we limiting 'woke vandalism to?' Which statues? Which memorials? Which priceless artifacts of history and culture? Anything that's offensive.. or? Because if you look at anything long enough, someone's going to get butthurt about it, and we must now legitimize their outrage, because we're woke now. There are no boundaries to it. 

It's a very complicated question...

 

[rjc149]

[People] vandalized and defaced the 54th Massachusetts Regiment memorial in Boston, the first all-black Union infantry unit (the subject of the movie Glory). Spray painting "black lives matter" on a memorial to the original Black Lives Matter activists.

That just goes to show you where statue-toppling goes. Eradicate history, eradicate education and knowledge, and take a dump on something. Smell that? Yeah. Mmmm. That's progress. If you're offended, you're right.    

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[sothereiwas]

It's probably a fantasy and too much to hope for, but it sure would be nice if modern technology could capture the evidence needed to swiftly convict most of these assclowns. 

[rjc149]

1 minute ago, sothereiwas said:

It's probably a fantasy and too much to hope for, but it sure would be nice if modern technology could capture the evidence needed to swiftly convict most of these assclowns. 

That's the problem. Cops are scared to do their jobs right now. They have to just sit and watch. It's ridiculous. 

[sothereiwas]

30 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

That's the problem. Cops are scared to do their jobs right now. They have to just sit and watch. It's ridiculous. 

Doesn't have to be today, I'm fine with a batch of court dates and punitive sentences later in the summer. 

[schlumpy]

22 hours ago, Cookiesandough said:

They trashed/vandalized a lot of statues and monument circle memorial. Epicenter of our city with a lot of memories not attached to racial injustice

Wait a minute Cookie. Just hold them horses.

Were you not down there just last week helping them out?😶

[Libby1]

It must be a scary time to be a street artist posing as a living statue.  

[rjc149]

25-year old Colonel Robert Shaw, their white commander, led the 54th Massachusetts on a near-suicidal first wave charge into the heavily-defended Fort Wagner and was killed on the parapet. The attack was repulsed and the fort was never taken.

As was the custom, officers were buried in individual graves, separately from the infantrymen, who were usually buried in a mass grave. If possible, bodies of higher-ranking officers were even sent back to their families by their enemies for proper funerals, out of respect.

The Confederates threw Shaw’s body in the mass grave with his men, an act of disrespect and contempt for leading black troops.

Upon hearing this, Shaw’s prominent abolitionist family back in Boston remarked that it was fitting, and what he would have wanted, to be buried with his men. There was no better tribute than to for his body to remain in the mass grave by Fort Wagner. Instead, a memorial was commissioned to honor all of them in Boston Commons.

150 years later, SJWs are vandalizing and spray painting their memorial with “f—k the police” and “black lives matter” because we’re woke now. We’re drawing attention to racism. We can always just build another memorial to the 54th Massachusetts. The history isn’t important. What’s important is being woke. 

Edited June 13, 2020 by rjc149

[Ellener]

It was a long argument in the UK I remember, what was going to be kept, what was going to go...what was art too.

[Ellener]

Prince Charles and his views on architecture and the classicism debate https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/5317802/The-Prince-of-Wales-on-architecture-his-10-monstrous-carbuncles.html

[Emilie Jolie]

I don't think the problem is 'being woke'. There just needs to be a strong leader right now to say 'look, we hear you, we hear your fundamental grievances. Yes, it is important that our monuments be a true reflection of our shared past - all of it. Let's work together to get this sorted'.

Unfortunately, the longer it takes for such a leader to come to the fore, the worst this 'woke vandalism, let's have them all' vs 'wow, all this illegal activity coming out of the blue, where is the police' battlefield will intensify.

[sothereiwas]

Alternatively we could try to grow more tantrum-proof citizens. 

[elaine567]

Today in London and other places in the UK, counter protests were organised against the BLM protesters. 
The BLM march in London organised for today was cancelled as trouble was expected.
Some  people who showed up in central London were from far right groups and some agitators were just out for a fight no doubt.
But also there were other people desperate to stand guard and protect statues and war memorials in central London from being vandalised.
This statue toppling seems to have mobilised the "This is OUR country" brigade. and I guess some ordinary peaceful "whites" now feel a bit under attack.
BLM cannot deface  Winston Churchill's statue and the Cenotaph and expect to gain support from ordinary British folk.
The Mayor had already made these particular structures safe and out of reach this weekend, but for some even that was a step too far.
Changing hearts and minds will not IMO be achieved by rubbing people up the wrong way.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

46 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Changing hearts and minds will not IMO be achieved by rubbing people up the wrong way.

I wonder how Kaepernick is doing...      

(in terms of the big picture)

 

His  'settlement' with the NFL was surely pennies on the dollar... and his 'workout' effort was a joke.

 

But maybe they'll put him on a stamp one day??

 

 

[Piddy]

Statues being taken down is nothing new.  Doesn't mean they're permanent.  Societies thinking changes and what people consider celebrating changes also.

 

 

[SumGuy]

On 6/12/2020 at 11:55 AM, sothereiwas said:

Allowing lawless behavior without significant consequence is not a worthy endeavor. 

Unless it is a corporate financial crime, someone using public resources for personal gain, or defiance of court orders to  stop racial profiling...then a slap on the wrist is OK. 

Defunding the  organizations that regulate business to prevent it from committing financial fraud on the government and consumer is OK, heck even getting rid of oversight so public funds can be given out without any kind of accounting seems perfectly legit.  

I agree allowing lawless behavior to flourish is not a worthy endeavor, be it a citizen, a corporation or a police officer.  But two of those three groups seem to get a pass.

[sothereiwas]

7 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

Unless it is a corporate financial crime, someone using public resources for personal gain

It seems like the Burisma thing is finally being put under a microscope, so you can add that to the positives recently. 

[NuevoYorko]

On 6/11/2020 at 10:16 AM, stillafool said:

Why in a museum?  If they are that bad and cause so much pain why aren't they crushed to dust?

Because they have historical significance.   A museum is an appropriate place.

[Tamfana]

45 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

It seems like the Burisma thing is finally being put under a microscope, so you can add that to the positives recently. 

Ukrainian prosecutor cleared H. Biden.  I guess Rudy and Donnie can try but only koolaid drinkers will believe it.  

Edited June 15, 2020 by Tamfana

[NuevoYorko]

I haven't read the whole thread but the recurring argument against "erasing history" is simply a straw man.  I think we are talking about removing symbols or depictions of oppression, or worse,  from positions of honor - or, even destroying them, but not erasing history.   We all want that history to be viewed realistically and often.  Just not revered.  

The whole Confederate flag and love for Robert E Lee thing has me baffled, especially when promoted by some of the people in the USA who profess to be the most fervently patriotic.  The Confederate states did not want to be a part of America.  The Confederate army killed thousands of American troops and civilians.  That's history, I was born in the south, I like the south, but honoring symbols and figures that promote the secession and maintenance of the "way of life" (slavery - without which the traditional "way of life" of the south would not have been possible) within the context of the United States as a nation is just ...  

And they are being honored and displayed in public places where descendants of the very people who were oppressed by those regimes make up a great proportion of the citizenry.   Are the opinions of these Americans of less merit than those who revere the confederate flag and generals?  Why?

Personally, it seems the same as if Germany had statues of Himmler and Hitler and flew the nazi flag in their  public spaces.  

 

[sothereiwas]

30 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

I haven't read the whole thread but the recurring argument against "erasing history" is simply a straw man.

I haven't read the rest of your post, but the first sentence makes me think you're misusing the term strawman. 

[Libby1]

I think as much as anything, the sight of a fired up mob tearing down a statue makes a lot of people feel uneasy.  I was reading through posts on a local Facebook group regarding recent protests.  There's widespread annoyance in our community about the breaching of lockdown rules.  Some of those people were being wound up by activists who, from their profiles, don't actually live in this area but presumably had visited for the protests - and yes, they did identify themselves as "Antifa".  We're a fairly peaceful, safe community...but the activists were intensely vitriolic.  Throwing out accusations of "fash" and racism and making threatening sounds about returning to the area to chase out the people who actually live here, purely because they had the temerity to be annoyed about potential health risks from the protests.  In no way did they come across as decent people, and it seemed to me like the BLM cause is just a way for them to channel their aggressive instincts more than anything else.  They were all white, incidentally.

When I saw footage of a mob tearing down a statue and throwing it in a river, my thought was "it could be a human being at some point, and some of them probably wish it were."  I don't care if a statue of a slave owner from centuries ago is removed.  I think it's probably a good thing, so long as it's done properly and without unnecessary drama.  But praising angry mobs for focusing their rage on monuments to tear down just doesn't seem like the best way forward.  Anger gives people a very temporary burst of feeling powerful and energised, and sometimes it does result in them achieving very short term aims...but longer term, giving way to anger tends to set people back.

[waterwoman]

Colston has to go not just because he was a slave trader but BECAUSE he was a philanthropist to the city of Bristol who made the money he was so generous with by buying and selling black people. I grew up in a village just outside Bristol and had friends who went to Colstons school and I attended concerts and performed in the Colston Hall. Unconsciously celebrating and applauding a man who traded slaves. I didn’t know what he was. It never occurred to me to question (this was back in the 70s). Slave trading has become a normalised part of the city’s fabric and it needs to change. Bristol is a beautiful city and it’s hard to accept that so much of it’s built beauty is drenched in pain and sorrow  . It would be hard indeed if it all had to be torn down. If toppling a few self-important statues and renaming a few streets and buildings help to make Black Bristolians feel a bit more confident that Black lives matter then more power to them. Bristol is better off without the statue.

 

[NuevoYorko]

17 hours ago, Libby1 said:

I think as much as anything, the sight of a fired up mob tearing down a statue makes a lot of people feel uneasy.  I was reading through posts on a local Facebook group regarding recent protests.  There's widespread annoyance in our community about the breaching of lockdown rules. 

Right.  That is a main goal of protests, whether they be peaceful and organized or chaotic and destructive.  If non participants are left  feeling "uneasy" or "annoyed" then the protests are probably at least somewhat meaningful.