Anti-white Prejudice - does it exist?

[Snow_Queen]

Back to the original question, discrimination exists regardless of skin color, gender, orientation, etc. It also exists within races. Many have standards of what said race should be.

I had only few experiences with this from people of other races. The hardest time came from my own race. I never met their standards of beauty by a long shot. While I haven’t been in anyone else’s shoes, I’d say I dealt with some form of discrimination.

 Being pale white with very dark, very curly hair and an hourglass shape made me stand out. Where I grew up, almost no white woman had dark or curly hair. Most were tall, blonde, thin with light eyes and very tanned skin. All I ever heard was why are you so white? Why don’t you tan? You MUST dye your hair. Is it REALLY your natural color? Why don’t you straighten it or dye it lighter? You must be part black/Hispanic/ insert race here.

My point is, you can be treated differently for any number of reasons. The level of severity is what’s up for debate but I don’t believe we should diminish anyone’s experience. We need to come together and understand what each person has gone through.

 

[Zona]

14 hours ago, jspice said:

What “traditionally White” countries are you taking about? 
Many of those decided they were going to occupy other lands, and nearly the entire African continent, so to oppose immigration would be quite hypocritical of them. Yet, there they are on TV complaining about “them foreigners ” Every chance they get  

The US is not traditionally White, nor is the UK ( since the latter too decided to steal the brown people whose countries they conquered).

White people are the visitors in the US. They damn sure better be open to diversity since they were once the minorities in the US  

If you mean EU countries, they’re not super welcoming to Black people ( as I’m assuming you’re using “minority” to mean “Black”. People of colour aren’t “minorities” everywhere).

Korea, China and Japan are homogenous nations. You can’t compare them with a country like the US, whose first and rightful inhabitants were brown.

Nor can you compare them with the UK, which brought those Brown people there and NOW they want to have a problem with them? 

Korea, Japan and China  never had any other races or nationalities so, yes immigration is hard but not impossible. 
They also don’t easily accept people of colour and the White man is king of the immigrants. 
Even there a White male will be hired before a male of a different colour. Next most popular are White women with “gold hair”. White people are seen as superior. Black people are trash  

These Asian nations, while bigoted AF have an excuse for their bigotry, as messed up as it is  They all share one language, culture and heritage and weren’t exposed to other ethnicities that much until very recently. 

Incidentally, despite the ingrained racism among a large portion of the population, I had the most amazing health insurance in Korea. In the US I can’t even afford to have my annual mammogram. 

I am completely against the colonization that was carried out by some, but not all, Western European countries. At the same time, I don't feel like I have to take responsibility for it just because some of my ancestors were born in those countries (Britain and France). Same thing with slavery. I don't feel like I am responsible for it just because I am white. I found out recently that there are several directly related men in my family tree who died fighting for the north in the civil war.

Perhaps I am an idealist, but I think there are universal truths in regards to how we treat each other. For example, racism is always wrong no matter who is guilty of it. Carving out exceptions is just for political expediency IMO, and why groups like BLM will never have any real success or impact in the long run. A majority of Americans are fair minded people, and they will see groups like BLM and Antifa for who they are, and they will ultimately reject them. BLM needs to divorce their hard left agenda from non-partisan ideas that could be used to improve race relations. 

[thefooloftheyear]

I don't speak for everyone, but many white folks have experiences with black customer service personnel that are bitter, angry, uncooperative, etc merely because you showed up(or called) and happened to be white....No other reason...And believe me, I wouldn't doubt if during the course of their job they actually do run into white people that disrespect them or maybe even hurl insults, but it doesn't do any good to just lash our at an entire race of people as a result...

If they are frustrated for whatever reason, that's fine, but it makes no sense to take it out on people that haven't wronged anyone and don't have any prejudices....Al it does is contribute to the problem....Most people don't like being abused for no apparent reason...When I start to encounter this, I normally just hang up the phone and try to talk to someone else..I wont bother trying to understand or reason with it...and it wont get anywhere, anyway....

Its no different with the Trump haters...I held a door for a woman going into the store a few years ago, and she angrily told me "don't bother"....then said "you probably voted for Trump"...😂  I didn't but wasn't going to bother correcting her...It must suck to walk around with such misplaced anger and resentment....

TFY

[Zona]

11 hours ago, major_merrick said:

Of course the difference is that my worldview accepts the concept of original sin (that all people are essentially bad without God cleaning them up) and the Left wants to believe that people are essentially good.  Ultimately, any struggle for resources results in violence.  Thus, in order to achieve social progress, efforts in that direction ought not to end up taxing or redistributing resources.  Everybody is an "other" to somebody else.  And ultimately, human nature being what it is, I will choose me and mine over you and yours if it comes down to it.

I think this is a very important point that many younger people may be unaware of. One of the biggest differences between left and right is how we see this question. The left thinks humans are good, but are made to do bad things because of the way our government is set up and because of it's institutions. Conservatives think that humans are all born selfish and no utopian society could ever be created, and therefore we just need to protect people's rights and freedoms with the goverment's main role being to protect those things.

This is a weighty subject, but I just have time to give the nutshell version.

[mark clemson]

In answer to the basic question "does anti-white prejudice exist?" I'd say yes, it does.

The topic of the day is clearly black prejudice against whites, but I'd point out that in addition to racial prejudice, we've had widespread prejudice against Irish*, Catholics, and Italians (most of whom are white) during our country's history. In fact the KKK at one point listed Catholics as another main target of their ire.

It's noteworthy too that the majority of Jews are certainly racially white enough (unless you happen to have prejudiced views against them). A poster above mentioned Slavs, so I suppose that must have been (or still be) a thing. And I would say the level of distaste some folks show for red heads, most of whom are white, probably amounts to discrimination/prejudice in some cases.

No doubt some significant % of Muslims are prejudiced against "westerners", not necessarily based on race. Some fraction of those Muslims are probably much more forgiving towards "whites" who practice Islam, others probably not.

So yes, prejudice is an "equal opportunity employer" of sorts.

 

* Gangs of New York gives a somewhat dramatized view into some of the joy and harmony our white forefathers were experiencing towards each other during a certain segment of our nations history.

[Ellener]

12 hours ago, mrs rubble said:

I hold onto hope that people everywhere can continue to grow in their understanding of each other. 

The Dalai Lama said in an interview with Justin Rowlatt last week:

When we face some tragic situation, it reveals the deeper human values of compassion. Usually people don't think about these deeper human values, but when they see their human brothers and sisters suffering the response comes automatically.

No matter how rich your family is, without the community you cannot survive. In the past there was too much emphasis on my continent, my nation, my religion. Now that thinking is out of date. Now we really need a sense of oneness of seven billion human beings.

 

[mark clemson]

As a few posters mentioned, "racism" and "prejudice" can have distinct meanings. My (USA) experience has been that the majority of white people seem to use them interchangeably, with racism having a stronger (and thus more negative) connotation.

My (admittedly relatively more limited) experience with black people has been that that many of them seem to take the definition of racism as only the one where systems/institutions are in place that (either deliberately or inadvertently) favor one race. So, while black people can be plenty prejudiced (and many of them will readily admit this is an issue), they can't be "racist".

I personally don't think the misalignment of definitions has been particularly helpful in both groups seeing eye to eye.

[schlumpy]

20 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

It's noteworthy too that the majority of Jews are certainly racially white enough (unless you happen to have prejudiced views against them). 

It's above noteworthy Mark. Black distaste for white Jews is well documented. Just a few months ago orthodox Jews were suffering random attacks in new York by young black men. It was remarked upon because of the lack of news coverage.

Europe is still rife with antisemitism. There were articles just last year about Jews who were so concerned they were contemplating fleeing.

This has been common theme in Europe for a very long time not that America doesn't share blame. One famous incident illustrated by the following link:

https://www.history.com/news/wwii-jewish-refugee-ship-st-louis-1939

How does anyone have the moral authority bestowed upon them to pick and choose the cause of the month when there so much blame to go around?

Let's try a more holistic approach of preaching peace and goodwill towards each other. 

I realize it's not worked out so well before but neither has blaming a single group for everyone else's ills.

 

[elaine567]

9 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I personally don't think the misalignment of definitions has been particularly helpful in both groups seeing eye to eye.

I agree.
This adoption of the  word "racist" with its "new" meaning, which means it only applies to whites, causes no end of trouble and frustration if not actual anger.
Then the condescending "educate yourself, black people can't be racist", does not help one bit either.
No-one is going to convince the average white person who has been racially abused by a black person that the black person isn't racist.
So whilst it may work for those immersed in racial politics, it is not going to work in real life on the streets and that is a problem.

[pepperbird]

So how about the "white" jewish person? Is there anyone who is going to try and say follows of that faith don't get the short end of the stick from just about everyone?

[mark clemson]

I think preventing black people (or really anyone) from being unnecessarily killed by police is a worthy cause. (And I've noticed there are generally few complaints when a cop shoots someone raising/pointing a gun at them.) Clearly black people feel unfairly targeted by this (and many, but not all, others seem to agree). I feel reasonably sure there's something to that, and support an end to it for a variety of reasons.

Ending social institutions that favor one race/group is a worthy goal as well. It's also a separate goal (IMO) and probably far less easy to accomplish.

Ending people feeling/being "highly prejudiced" (ie, racist, in common white US speech) is yet a 3rd goal and probably even harder. It's probably impossible "in full". Although overt racism/"extreme prejudice" is marginalized in the US, it certainly hasn't disappeared. Covert racism and "institutionalized racism" are apparently much more common (it appears many black people would say it is). Some of it is unconscious, no doubt, but for some people it's quite conscious and simply hidden from those who don't share similar views.

That all goes for prejudice against whites and Jews as well I suppose, as we don't want, e.g. black or Hispanic cops accidentally/unconsciously using excessive force against whites either.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

11 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

So how about the "white" jewish person? Is there anyone who is going to try and say follows of that faith don't get the short end of the stick from just about everyone?

 

That's clueless.

Most other people don't have any sense that they should ever show prejudice toward Jewish people.

Furthermore, you can't often tell when someone is Jewish, so they themselves don't suffer any prejudice until they somehow bother to make that factor known.

(They're like Raiders fans at Arrowhead Stadium - free to be anonymous as long as they wish)

 

Understanding  common stereotypes about  Jewish people might assist one in figuring out context in various settings around the world, but Jewish stereotypes are not too often reacted to in the streets and in the stores as African American stereotypes so often are.

 

Take away basic stereotyping and there simply wouldn't be a "BLM" movement.

For it's far more concerning that visually discernible blacks are PRE-judged to be criminals or poor people by shopkeepers and police alike than it is that various random numerical distributions don't match precisely the racial distribution throughout the American population.

 

Take Covid, for example:  The media loves to crow about how persons of color are disproportionately affected BY Covid ...   which is pointless crap IF you extract the effects of poverty on the same data.   Covid doesn't give a $#@%  what the color of the skin is of the being it invades.  The data disparity is a function of poor people living more close together with one another, and of more persons of color than whites being poor among those. 

[jspice]

5 hours ago, Zona said:

I am completely against the colonization that was carried out by some, but not all, Western European countries. At the same time, I don't feel like I have to take responsibility for it just because some of my ancestors were born in those countries (Britain and France). Same thing with slavery. I don't feel like I am responsible for it just because I am white. I found out recently that there are several directly related men in my family tree who died fighting for the north in the civil war.

Perhaps I am an idealist, but I think there are universal truths in regards to how we treat each other. For example, racism is always wrong no matter who is guilty of it. Carving out exceptions is just for political expediency IMO, and why groups like BLM will never have any real success or impact in the long run. A majority of Americans are fair minded people, and they will see groups like BLM and Antifa for who they are, and they will ultimately reject them. BLM needs to divorce their hard left agenda from non-partisan ideas that could be used to improve race relations. 

Well my question wasn’t about whether you’re responsible for it or not. My question was which White nations you were referring to.

You may not be directly responsible for the problem, but you can be a part of the solution. 
 

I’m a heterosexual woman who identifies as just that. 
A lot of straight people have done and said some awful things to anyone “different “ to them. I don’t march in the pride parade but I damn sure make LGBTQ people know that I know these awful things have happened and are still happening. 
I can be an ally by listening and acknowledging what happens to them. 

[sothereiwas]

On 6/14/2020 at 8:45 AM, NuevoYorko said:

If the entire power structure  (federal government, state, local, law enforcement, all the way down to administration and teachers of the school) were dominated by a particular race, and members of another race or races were  systematically impeded from disrupting this paradigm,  that is racism.

And yet the previous POTUS, half black, current mayor of Minneapolis, black, over half of the city council, black ....

Your assertion doesn't seem backed up by fact. 

 

On 6/14/2020 at 8:45 AM, NuevoYorko said:

Racism is incorrectly conflated with "prejudice" in this thread and elsewhere.

rac·ism

noun

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

How about that. 

[Emilie Jolie]

54 minutes ago, jspice said:

I can be an ally by listening and acknowledging what happens to them.

Great point.

To go back to my poorly worded question, yes of course anti-white prejudice exists. 

I understand that the US definition of racism seems to be a blanket definition that covers all kinds of sins, and I get that some of you may find the distinction between racial prejudice and racism immaterial or nonexistent. To be honest, it seems a bit too convenient, a bit too dismissive.

There are differences in the way whites are being prejudiced against depending on their look, their origin or, sometimes their social class, yes. They are also treated with unjustified deference in countries with a stubborn colonial imprint still to this day.

But there is no difference in the way blacks are discriminated against on a systemic level, regardless of where they come from. I understand that some have a natural aversion for anything that remotely looks like an academic reference - that's unfortunate, really, because the cold-hearted facts that come from so many meta-analysis studies point to a clear anti-black bias in many parts of society, and no equivalent anti-white bias.

This is why terminology is important - it reflects 2 different realities. The average guy on the street (that's most of us!) is not an idiot - we can all make that distinction without turning it into a giant whataboutism extravaganza.

[pepperbird]

On 6/15/2020 at 2:51 PM, SincereOnlineGuy said:

 

That's clueless.

Most other people don't have any sense that they should ever show prejudice toward Jewish people.

Furthermore, you can't often tell when someone is Jewish, so they themselves don't suffer any prejudice until they somehow bother to make that factor known.

(They're like Raiders fans at Arrowhead Stadium - free to be anonymous as long as they wish)

 

Understanding  common stereotypes about  Jewish people might assist one in figuring out context in various settings around the world, but Jewish stereotypes are not too often reacted to in the streets and in the stores as African American stereotypes so often are.

 

Take away basic stereotyping and there simply wouldn't be a "BLM" movement.

For it's far more concerning that visually discernible blacks are PRE-judged to be criminals or poor people by shopkeepers and police alike than it is that various random numerical distributions don't match precisely the racial distribution throughout the American population.

 

Take Covid, for example:  The media loves to crow about how persons of color are disproportionately affected BY Covid ...   which is pointless crap IF you extract the effects of poverty on the same data.   Covid doesn't give a $#@%  what the color of the skin is of the being it invades.  The data disparity is a function of poor people living more close together with one another, and of more persons of color than whites being poor among those. 

Jewish people are still picked at by most groups, and if we take the Southern Poverty Law Center at its word, it's got nothing to do with wealth. That's a pretty crappy excuse for racism. Some people just have a dark heart.

Don't believe me? Here's an example. The Black Panther movement is a long way from fighting for human rights Keep in mind this group has thousands of members.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/new-black-panther-party

Between white supremacists and that sort of nonsense, it no wonder people are PO'ed.

Edited June 17, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed quoted hate speech from referenced extremist.

[jspice]

Whataboutism Extravaganza. Perfect turn of phrase. See above 😂

Can’t get through one topic without, “What about that one Black guy we elected?”

 

[mark clemson]

49 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

This is why terminology is important - it reflects 2 different realities. The average guy on the street (that's most of us!) is not an idiot - we can all make that distinction without turning it into a giant whataboutism extravaganza.

I think you make a good point, and I do think there is something to "institutionalized racism". People have been talking about it for a long time. However, I think your faith in "the guy in the street" may be less warranted that you'd perhaps hope. After all, these ARE the people who are prejudiced, unwilling to reflect on or change their own biases, etc. They're all over the place, mixed right in with the folks who can get past their prejudices, etc.

Additionally, for some of the less reflective among us, I agree with some other folks that being told, essentially, I can label you racist (when you are) but you can't label me that when, in your common parlance I actually am as well (e.g. prejudiced against whites), that feels like a double standard. If you (black person prejudiced against whites) can hold a double standard against me, aren't I (white person prejudiced against blacks) now justified in doing the same?

I think there are some (racist/prejudiced) white people who have little interest in changing their views to begin with, and in their cases this language issue doesn't help the situation. 

[sothereiwas]

55 minutes ago, jspice said:

“What about that one Black guy we elected?”

12% of voters last time were black, and 11% of congress ended up being black ... 

[Emilie Jolie]

30 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I think there are some (racist/prejudiced) white people who have little interest in changing their views to begin with, and in their cases this language issue doesn't help the situation. 

Yeah, I can see that too. If we can't get past semantics, how do we get to the crux of the matter? Honestly, I feel this 'guy on the street' thing is a bit of a mirage - we really all are guys on the street! We all have access to the same information; we choose to interpret it differently. You don't need to be Professor in Behavioural Studies to see how racism, prejudice and intolerance come to be - we don't always want to engage with why. That's the problem.

To your point: is debating racism or prejudice in the marketplace of ideas helpful, or, as you say, is it a bit fruitless as a negligible number of people tend to change their views anyway? Tricky balance.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[jspice]

56 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

12% of voters last time were black, and 11% of congress ended up being black ... 

Yea! What about that??! 

[some_username1]

On 6/14/2020 at 2:00 AM, Emilie Jolie said:

In white-dominant societies, it's not really structurally, practically possible for the minority group to be racist, even less so if that minority group has no institutional power.

A group of minority people insulting a group of white people at a bar for being white? Racial prejudice.

Black applicants getting half the call backs that white applicants get with the same qualifications for the same jobs (see experiment lead by sociologist Devah Pager in American Sociology Review 2009 Oct 1; 74(5): 777–799 called 'Discrimination in a Low-Wage Labor Market: A Field Experiment' if you are interested)? Racism.

Does that make sense?

 

Sounds like mental gymnastics to me- akin to arguing that water isn’t wet, it’s damp.

Racial prejudice is racial prejudice.

[Emilie Jolie]

I don't believe racism to be a zero-sum gain, and I think calling everything racism without making any clear distinctions when there are obvious differences between the different strands of prejudice is a handy tool to stop us asking why any of it exists in the first place. 

But let's say that anti-white racism is exactly the same as anything else,

the next natural question are  = why does it exist? What are the root causes of anti-white sentiments? Is it skin colour?

 

[elaine567]

I believe it is about natural xenophobia.
We seek out those who are "different" so we can protect ourselves from them.
We use hints like dress, speech and behaviour to place people into convenient and helpful  boxes.
Skin colour is also a cue, a clue to who and what we are dealing with.
Skin colour is easy and fixed.
It identifies "them and us" without the need to get too close or get too involved.

[Libby1]

9 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

To your point: is debating racism or prejudice in the marketplace of ideas helpful, or, as you say, is it a bit fruitless as a negligible number of people tend to change their views anyway? Tricky balance.

I think it can be help us figure out how to deal with it when we encounter it.   A lot of people out there work in caring or advocacy roles where sooner or later they're likely to run into a vulnerable client who is a racist.  That's a difficult situation to deal with, and one where there's a particular necessity to challenge the client's behaviour effectively...because if you don't, they might end up in a situation where they lose their home or access to a resource they depend on as a result of their racism.  The advice given by BLM about how to challenge racism is advice that isn't likely to be either effective or in a client's best interests in that situation.  That's probably why I'm reluctant to educate myself with BLM materials.  Not that I don't think they have educational value, but I'm dubious that the activist approach to tackling racism is likely to accomplish much more than to either change people's surface behaviour while the racist attitudes remain concealed - or in some cases just inflame them into even more racism. 

 I've occasionally had clients where racism (or other types of bigotry more directed at me - eg sexism) was an issue.  The top priority is to get them to stop the racism.  Not because they're hurting another person's feelings, but because they're putting themselves at risk.  I know that from the BLM perspective that wouldn't be good enough.  That the feelings of the person they were racist to should be paramount, but that isn't really applicable where you have a professional duty towards the client and have to place their needs and interests uppermost in your mind.

So, in that situation it is directly in that person's interests that they stop behaving in racist ways.  Which starts with questions to get to the bottom of what triggered the racist behaviour. When people realise that the person sitting opposite them is motivated to help rather than berate them, they'll often open up with some very revealing insights about why they behave the way they do.  I've tended to find in those situations that there's no need for me to, at any point, tell them how wrong racism is....because in the course of figuring out why they behaved that way, they'll come to that conclusion on their own.   

I think when people manage to reach those conclusions themselves, rather than being told "you are a racist" then they're more likely to take responsibility for doing something about it.  Especially if they're given a message of "this isn't a mindset you're stuck with.  People can and do evolve."  I suppose that's where a referral to a counsellor might come in, if they're really not able to do that (eg if they were attacked at some point by somebody of a different race, and need additional help in learning to distinguish that attacker from anybody who happens to share the same skin colour as them).

As to whether you can throw a person into a discussion like this and educate them into letting go of racist or prejudiced beliefs, I suppose that anything's possible...but I think usually there's just a bit too much noise and strong emotions flying around for it to happen.  What I do think we can do is consider methods of addressing racism that go beyond attending marches and calling people out for racism.  And I think just by starting this thread, you've demonstrated a desire to look beyond the popular activist approach for possible answers.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Libby1