Anti-white Prejudice - does it exist?

[Haydn]

30 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I believe it is about natural xenophobia.
We seek out those who are "different" so we can protect ourselves from them.
We use hints like dress, speech and behaviour to place people into convenient and helpful  boxes.
Skin colour is also a cue, a clue to who and what we are dealing with.
Skin colour is easy and fixed.
It identifies "them and us" without the need to get too close or get too involved.

Well if this is the case then i am living the opposite and have positively, naturally embraced most things assumed to be different. (If i understood you correctly Elaine)

[Halosglow]

Yes, and common sense should answer the white privilege narrative to me it is not oppression

Edited June 17, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed 3rd party republished text

[elaine567]

12 minutes ago, Haydn said:

Well if this is the case then i am living the opposite and have positively, naturally embraced most things assumed to be different.

Some can "evolve" past these natural traits.
They  have learned to  embrace "difference".
Maybe their lives are more comfortable, easier, more stable so that fear of the unknown and of strangers is on the back burner. 
OR they have compartmentalised their lives away from having to deal with those who are "different".
To others their fear is at the forefront of their existence and that leads to hate and anger and blame.

Edited June 16, 2020 by elaine567

[Haydn]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

Some can "evolve" past these natural traits.
They  have learned to  embrace "difference".
Maybe their lives are more comfortable, easier, more stable so that fear of the unknown and of strangers is on the back burner. 
To others their fear is at the forefront of their existence and that leads to hate and anger and blame.

And leads to the dark side....  (Sorry your last sentence was straight out of Yoda`s playbook)

[schlumpy]

43 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I believe it is about natural xenophobia.
We seek out those who are "different" so we can protect ourselves from them.
We use hints like dress, speech and behaviour to place people into convenient and helpful  boxes.
Skin colour is also a cue, a clue to who and what we are dealing with.
Skin colour is easy and fixed.
It identifies "them and us" without the need to get too close or get too involved.

I look to other cultures for comparison. My South Korean buddy filled me in on the differences between the Koreans who live in the hills and the ones that live in the cities. That sounded familiar. Of course racism can't apply here because they are from the same gene pool but I do think they hate the Japanese with a passion and the Koreans are not fond of mixed race kids. Both of my friends children had plenty of family pressure to marry within their lineage. 

[schlumpy]

@Halosglow

Are you positive you live in California?

I get the point of view. I don't know if can blame people for taking advantage of those who sincerely want to help them. After all I accepted the governments check last week for $2,400.00. Damn hard to turn free stuff.

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed quoted third-party republished content & reference

[Halosglow]

Do you think it is offensive when people say White Privilege it is because I been poor all my life! and so have most of the people I grew up with its just sad what the government is doing to all of us!!! We are not defined by our skin color. But by are deeds. And labels are for items not people. If we could just stop putting these labels on humans and filing them accordingly then we would not be in this mess. I personally love all people no matter what you have done how you live or anything. I do not judge. And I promise you that hardly anybody these days are racist except the left wing politicians 

Edited June 17, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed reference to removed commentary on third-party republished text.

[Emilie Jolie]

51 minutes ago, Libby1 said:

That's probably why I'm reluctant to educate myself with BLM materials.

I don't really know enough about BLM's advocacy tools other than I have found the huge amount of backlash they get for stating a simple truth to be wild. Black lives matter. Obviously. I don't see it as a call to arms, just a basic statement that we should be behind without adding a 'yes but'. Black lives matter. They haven't always mattered as much as White lives have, demonstrably so, and now they do. That's a pretty cool thing, actually. Something to be celebrated. That so many people have knee-jerked on the name alone is indicative of something serious.

Someone saying their mortgage has been refused by all banks, or that they need to raise twice the deposit as a white person, because of the way they look, their name, their religion, or worse their skin tone, is not equivalent  to 'yeah, same thing with me, some dude was rude to me for being white'. But for some twisted reason, we want pull the cover back to ourselves and insist anti-white feelings are the same as systemic bias. 

The notion that blacks / minorities get special treatment need to be dispelled. They don't.

56 minutes ago, Libby1 said:

The top priority is to get them to stop the racism.

The top priority is to engage in a way that makes every contribution be as valued as the next, yes. Stop racism? I don't know. There are very subtle ways in which racism can proliferate, and not everyone has the tools to counteract. Racist prejudices are insidious, and they can hide under the most respectable facade. This is why it's a tricky balance, in my opinion.

 

1 hour ago, Libby1 said:

And I think just by starting this thread, you've demonstrated a desire to look beyond the popular activist approach for possible answers.

Thank you. 

[Halosglow]

4 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

Are you positive you live in California?

I get the point of view. I really like the nice, tight expository. I don't know if can blame people for taking advantage of those who sincerely want to help them. After all I accepted the governments check last week for $2,400.00. Damn hard to turn free stuff.

 

And I wasn't complaining I just don't see the oppression. I sure in the hell shop at the thrift store. I don't own a car etc. Whose fault is it MINE MINE there is no way in hell I would be anything but humbled for what little I have. I work where I live for room and board. I have not been able to work since I went to prison on a gun charge that I never even had. It was a one pack of black cat fire crackers in my trunk of my car in 1999. Instead of putting fire crackers on the abstract of judgement they typed fire arm. And I could not beat it no lawyer. So I went to prison and have never been able to work since. And who owes me any thing? NOBODY when people quit blaming others for their problems and take responsibility for their own actions. Respect others and quit judging people by their skin color and quit believing everything they read and hear this world will be a better place. I just don't see where any race in America can complain!! YOU ARE THE PILOT OF YOUR OWN PLANE FLY IT TO GREAT HEIGHTS 

[schlumpy]

@homecoming

How can resentment not build when other able bodied people get for free what you have to get up at 5am to work for. You preach tolerance and understanding. Why don't you use a bit of your university embedded "training" to understand his point of view. I don't think Halo is pointing a finger at the infirmed or mentally disabled. He might be pointing to drug addicts who claim social security benefits for a disability.

You resent the rich why can't he resent people who are getting for free what he has to pay for?

Seems like a very human response to me.

Edited June 17, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed quoted response to third-party republished content.

[Halosglow]

Someone saying their mortgage has been refused by all banks, or that they need to raise twice the deposit as a white person, because of the way they look, their name, their religion, or worse their skin tone, is not equivalent  to 'yeah, same thing with me, some dude was rude to me for being white'. But for some twisted reason, we want pull the cover back to ourselves and insist anti-white feelings are the same as systemic bias. 

 

What? Is this how you see things? You think white people get an incentive FROM BANKS? That is laughable. Bank owners hate all people they love their money they could not careless about where the money comes from. 

[Halosglow]

13 hours ago, schlumpy said:

@homecoming

How can resentment not build when other able bodied people get for free what you have to get up at 5am to work for. You preach tolerance and understanding. Why don't you use a bit of your university embedded "training" to understand his point of view. I don't think Halo is pointing a finger at the infirmed or mentally disabled. He might be pointing to drug addicts who claim social security benefits for a disability.

You resent the rich why can't he resent people who are getting for free what he has to pay for?

Seems like a very human response to me.

I am in no way filled with hate and I am a white female. What my point was with my post was that people are not oppressed in AMERICA period. Where they are lacking in is understanding that there is nobody of any race getting any kind of special treatment. If a black person looks at every white person as if they hate them then that is on them and until they see things through a different lens they are going to flip out that race card every chance they get. And they do. If they don't have what they need the tax payers have voted to put money towards helping them in every aspect of their lives. This goes for all races. There are not oppressed people and if there are you can bet it is by their own doing. There are lots of homeless people and if you ask them they don't mind it. They rather be out there not being taxed to death by the government. They live free. Just like those who take advantage of the welfare system. I don't mean taking without cause because that is just what they want they want every citizen on the streets poor and reliant on them. PULL BACK THE CURTAIN THEY ARE SHOVING RIGHT IN OUR FACE and trying to distract us with this racial bull crap

Edited June 17, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed quote referencing third-party republished content.

[schlumpy]

4 minutes ago, Halosglow said:

I am in no way filled with hate and I am a white female. 

That will teach me to check profiles before I assume and shoot my mouth off.

I beg your pardon.

[Emilie Jolie]

37 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

To others their fear is at the forefront of their existence and that leads to hate and anger and blame.

Fear and suspicion are not entirely natural traits. Whole systems of power are built upon fanning the flames of difference, and painting difference as danger for one simple reason: keeping things as they are, even when they are broken. It's not 'evolving' than to recognise that a Black person, a Muslim person, a Jewish person is not responsible for your individual situation and at the very same time, whole groups of people are systematically treated worse than others simply for their skin colour. 

[Emilie Jolie]

18 minutes ago, Halosglow said:

What? Is this how you see things? You think white people get an incentive FROM BANKS? That is laughable. Bank owners hate all people they love their money they could not careless about where the money comes from. 

No, I don't think that, you misread me. I've not spoken of incentive, I don't know where that comes from. There have been endless research comprehensively showing that Black people in the USA are discriminated against by banks for being Black. Not for being poor, not for being fiscally irresponsible. For being Black. All things being equal, they get even worse treatment because of the colour of their skin.

What you are talking about, and where I am 100% in agreement with you, is that poor people are treated badly across the board. That is a discussion worth having, but it is not based on racial prejudice, in my opinion.

[Libby1]

9 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

The top priority is to engage in a way that makes every contribution be as valued as the next, yes. Stop racism? I don't know. There are very subtle ways in which racism can proliferate, and not everyone has the tools to counteract. Racist prejudices are insidious, and they can hide under the most respectable facade. This is why it's a tricky balance, in my opinion.

 

In a wider context, yes I agree.  I was thinking specifically of that situation where you're advising somebody who is putting themselves at risk (eg of losing housing, a job, access to resources) as a result of the kind of racist behaviour that needs to stop immediately.   Obviously in an advocacy situation there's only so much you can do..and "stop racism" or even "stop that person's" racism is overly ambitious, so that probably wasn't the best phrase to use.

 

[deepthinking]

White Policeman stabbed in UK riots! Not headline news cz that would be … say the-right-word here ...Loveshackers. I am not sure...

Edited June 16, 2020 by deepthinking

[Realitysux]

There is racism in every culture and every race. A racist person can come in any race and racism can be directed at any race. It's sad because racism has affected black and native lives today which is why they don't take racism towards white people as serious. Our history has not been affected by racism. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Realitysux

[schlumpy]

12 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

No, I don't think that, you misread me. I've not spoken of incentive, I don't know where that comes from. There have been endless research comprehensively showing that Black people in the USA are discriminated against by banks for being Black. Not for being poor, not for being fiscally irresponsible. For being Black. All things being equal, they get even worse treatment because of the colour of their skin.

What you are talking about, and where I am 100% in agreement with you, is that poor people are treated badly across the board. That is a discussion worth having, but it is not based on racial prejudice, in my opinion.

I'm sure there are studies as you have said. There are studies about everything Emilie and each one may say something different. The two autopsies on George Floyd came to different conclusions.

When dealing in finances the only thing that matters is to make a profit. You don't stay in business without making money. You won't make money by loaning to bad credit risks. It is that cut and dried. The only wild card are the people that make the decisions on who gets the loan and if they decline for any reason other than the criteria on the loan application, it's going to be a very obvious actionable pattern. Banks do not like lawsuits for good reasons.

The housing crash that happened in the United States was created by the federal government threatening banking systems with long and arduous audits if they did not start lowering their standards for loan applications. To smooth over any hurt feelings, the Government allowed the banks to sell the mortgage to Freddie Mae and Freddie Mac. These institutions would bear most of the risk. Both of them are under the Federal Government and eventually were swamped by bad debt from foreclosures. Something that anyone could have predicted.

Meanwhile banks were bundling bad loans with good ones and selling the package on the market as junk bonds. You can imagine what happened when the crash started and how many people got clobbered.

As an investor in the stock market I lost 40 percent of my portfolio at the time but most of the people who got a loan despite poor credit lost their homes. It took a while because they were propped up for by tax money under President Obamas administration. There were some people very relieved that President Obama was elected because he was going to pay off their mortgage. That of course that could not happen with housing prices now thirty percent lower. You could sell the house but the owner would still owe a significant amount of money.

The federal help had price. Instead of a two year recover we went though eight years.

What I wrote is pretty simplistic and does not include the variable rate loans that were agreed to that just crushed people that much more. 

I know because I was there and I was affected.

 

[Ellener]

14 hours ago, mark clemson said:

I think there are some (racist/prejudiced) white people who have little interest in changing their views to begin with

I guess the world will have to move on without them. Fortunately the majority have heard the wake up call.

[Emilie Jolie]

36 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

There are studies about everything Emilie and each one may say something different.

Yes there are schlumpy, but there are so many meta-data studies based on actual experiments on institutional racism that it's impossible to refute the stubborn facts.

To use your example, your banking crash didn't affect you personally because of your race, right? So maybe it's is a false equivalence?

I also wonder how best to combat anti-white prejudice? For those who feel they are victims of anti-white prejudice - what is the solution?

 

[Libby1]

1 hour ago, Emilie Jolie said:

I also wonder how best to combat anti-white prejudice? For those who feel they are victims of anti-white prejudice - what is the solution?

 

I suppose it depends on where they are.  In England & Wales, they could have recourse to hate speech laws - or, if it takes place in the workplace, they could raise a grievance.  Where these laws and processes are in place, they're in place for everybody.  Imagine a black employer discriminates against a white employee who ends up raising an action for race discrimination.  If the employer argued "systemic racism precludes the notion that white people can be the victims of racism" I think they'd be given very short shrift.  Maybe told something like "The claimant had a right not to be subjected to racial discrimination in the workplace, regardless of her colour.  The role of the Tribunal is to consider whether the employer breached that right.  It's outside the Tribunal's jurisdiction and expertise to analyse the concept of systemic racism in society generally."  Obviously in a case like that, if "systemic racism" meant that that particular workplace was riddled with racist practices then that would be different since it would support a claimant's case.  

So the justice system would recognise anti-white racism along with any other sort of racism, but in general discussion about racism being a serious social problem I think it would be much harder to argue that anti-white racism is a problem on anything like the level that anti-black racism is.  Obviously as demographics shift, as more black people occupy positions of influence and enjoy better economic status, and as power balances change, anti-white racism could become viewed as more of a problem.  

Edited June 16, 2020 by Libby1

[sothereiwas]

1 hour ago, Emilie Jolie said:

I also wonder how best to combat anti-white prejudice? For those who feel they are victims of anti-white prejudice - what is the solution?

Make all forms of racial based discrimination illegal, and allow people to compete on a level playing field. 

 

16 minutes ago, Libby1 said:

Where these laws and processes are in place, they're in place for everybody. 

Except they're really not. Any time quotas based on immutable characteristics are in place by law, the law can't help. 

[mark clemson]

15 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

To your point: is debating racism or prejudice in the marketplace of ideas helpful, or, as you say, is it a bit fruitless as a negligible number of people tend to change their views anyway? Tricky balance.

 

I actually think debating racism is quite helpful and important. Clearly covert racists have been getting better at operating under the radar and, e.g. infiltrating our police forces (or the ones who were there have just gotten better and more blatant at exploiting the tolerance we show for cops using force, since we know that sometimes they really need to). And there are of course white supremacists who use free speech etc on social media or simply create their own sites. Some % of people inevitably fail to see through the distortions and buy into their logic and views: "white people built this country" (never mind that it was with plenty of help from everyone else who contributed, sometimes in the form of cheap or free labor). And other distortions such as claims to genetic superiority etc.

My specific point was about the "racism" definition thing.

As pointed out by various folks above, prejudice/racism is generally a perennial problem that doesn't really go away, it just goes underground when it's not socially accepted.

So yes, shining a light on it and debating are critical IMO.

Edited June 16, 2020 by mark clemson

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, Ellener said:

I guess the world will have to move on without them. Fortunately the majority have heard the wake up call.

Actually the world can't move on without them. Or without prejudiced black people, Hispanics, Asians, etc. That's kind of the problem.

Outing them so there are consequences when they actually do something harmful (not just for having their personal views) is helpful IMO, as it keeps things to a dull roar.

Edited June 16, 2020 by mark clemson