Anti-white Prejudice - does it exist?

[Emilie Jolie]

4 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Actually the world can't move on without them. Or without prejudiced black people, Hispanics, Asians, etc. That's kind of the problem.

It can, but we tend to give too much credence to the behaviour and not enough to the causes. 

[mark clemson]

3 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

It can, but we tend to give too much credence to the behaviour and not enough to the causes. 

I'm not sure I see how. People with racist views will still be around, they will still need jobs, be making contributions to society (apart from espousing racism, which I don't consider a contribution), will still have families and kids, (who might or might not grow up to be racist too).

Some can/will change their minds, others will not. Even IF you were to somehow "fix" all of them at a given time, some (presumably small) % of the next generation would develop racist views, e.g. based on negative personal experiences and not reflecting on them or thinking of those experiences within a broader view. And it would presumably grow, mostly under the radar, from there.

I see us as stuck with them.

[mark clemson]

By the way, this doesn't make the need to debate/educate/expose/counteract racism useless, it makes it all the more necessary IMO. It's just that it's a perennial problem (IMO), unfortunately.

[sothereiwas]

Just now, mark clemson said:

I see us as stuck with them.

While I find them distasteful, we can't morally outlaw personal thoughts or feelings an individual might have. This is why, for instance, we don't actually make pedophilia illegal. We make acts illegal. I think that's fine, I find both sorts of people disturbing but as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others, their internal thoughts and feelings are their own. 

[Halosglow]

10 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

While I find them distasteful, we can't morally outlaw personal thoughts or feelings an individual might have. This is why, for instance, we don't actually make pedophilia illegal. We make acts illegal. I think that's fine, I find both sorts of people disturbing but as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others, their internal thoughts and feelings are their own. 

The way to combat all forms of racism is not to engage in it treat all others the same. I always have but there are those you cannot help but dislike the things they do. What makes me upset is you cannot even voice an opinion to anybody these days. People freak out over such petty crap. He say she say has more power then ever now. No facts are even thought of. And the more we lean into this behavior the worse it becomes. The saddest part of all this is that thee Government uses what is called crisis acting to trick the people into getting angry and riot and protest to fulfill their agenda. Most people don't see it nor believe when it is exposed. The news media is our number one enemy. They know if the black and whites come together in unity they are doomed.

[Libby1]

42 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Make all forms of racial based discrimination illegal, and allow people to compete on a level playing field. 

 

Except they're really not. Any time quotas based on immutable characteristics are in place by law, the law can't help. 

I get what you're saying.  If an employer said "due to systemic racism throughout society we decided to encourage applications from group A, and too bad if the applicant feels discriminated against as a consequence..." then they'd be in hot water.  But  your position is that in some cases X (black) might be able to subject Y (white) to detriment in terms of not taking them on in a role or not promoting them, and they might be able to argue successfully that it was justifiable on the basis that minority group A was under-represented in the workplace at that time.

I absolutely understand why people regard quotas as unfair.  Particularly in times of high unemployment where the net effect of widely applied quotas might result in unemployed people from minority groups having a demonstrably unfair advantage over other unemployed candidates.  There are other issues which might mean they actually work against equality...eg if women or minority groups are very under-represented amongst graduates in a specific field, then attempts to implement quotas are not likely to work out well either in terms of promoting equality and in terms of selecting the best person for the job (since employers might be choosing from a very small pool of qualified women compared to the pool of qualified men...and if they're set on choosing a woman, there's a good chance in that particular scenario  - eg 100 male candidates, 4 female candidates - that they're not picking the best person for the job.

So yeah, I definitely agree that you have a point.  But the point I was making generally was that in answer to the question of whether it's possible for a black person to be racist towards a white person...I think the law relating to discrimination says it is, and contradicts the popularly promoted idea that it's impossible for white people to be the victims of racism.  

 

[preraph]

On 6/13/2020 at 7:51 PM, enigma32 said:

I really don't know who let these crazy people make the rules. Only white people can be racist? That statement in itself is racist. These people saying that racism against white people can't actually be racism only because it is against white people? They're the racists. 

It's not only; it's fascist 

[Emilie Jolie]

22 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I'm not sure I see how. People with racist views will still be around, they will still need jobs, be making contributions to society (apart from espousing racism, which I don't consider a contribution), will still have families and kids, (who might or might not grow up to be racist too).

Some can/will change their minds, others will not. Even IF you were to somehow "fix" all of them at a given time, some (presumably small) % of the next generation would develop racist views, e.g. based on negative personal experiences and not reflecting on them or thinking of those experiences within a broader view. And it would presumably grow, mostly under the radar, from there.

I see us as stuck with them.

Maybe, yeah. We don't want to learn from history, sadly. The anti-Muslim prejudice is wild at the moment, for instance (there were a couple of low key comments on this thread alone) and plenty of people who don't think themselves as racist or prejudiced in any way indulge it in without a second thought. The central focus of the 'othering' constantly shifts, and that means a constant supply of prejudice.

11 minutes ago, Halosglow said:

They know if the black and whites come together in unity they are doomed.

This is why whenever black people, women, Jews, Palestinians, Muslims, LGBTQ+ etc and the most vulnerable in society say they are not treated fairly, they need universal support.So we stop the cycle.  For some reason, some of us get swept in by the negative wave, which the surest way to keep things as they are. The status quo sucks, most of us agree with that (those of us who aren't in any real position of power anyway) yet we can't quite find a way to unite. 

[Kellens]

I am of mixed race (white/spanish) and am very pale so I'm considered "white" by most people, although other Spanish people seem to sense my heritage.  I grew up in a mixed area, not many black people but West Indian/Spanish/White, and I attended a middle school that was predominately Black.  I was bullied first by the females and then the males.  I was sexually threatened and physically confronted too many times to count.  I was called cracker, white bread, white bitch and many other things.  Although I hated all of the people who did this to me (and still do in a childish way) this did not affect my opinion of all black people. I might have been angry for a little while but once I entered high school and grew up, it just became part of my past.  I didn't hold a grudge and I mostly think of them all as as**holes, not of their race.  I don't like people who are cruel for no reason, and the people who tortured me fit into that category.  Their race didn't matter to me, who they were as a person did. 

I understand it's not easy for everyone to just get over negative experiences with other races, especially if it went on for years (believe me, I know), but we are all just people.  I'll never understand hating someone without knowing them and just basing it on their appearance.  Don't base your opinion of someone on what they look like, not every human being is the same.  I do think all races can be hated, I think playing with the wording of being a racist or prejudiced isn't necessary. 

[Ellener]

2 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Outing them so there are consequences when they actually do something harmful (not just for having their personal views) is helpful IMO, as it keeps things to a dull roar.

we should be calling out anyone for acts of violence irrespective of racial issues. 

Why people would hold hateful personal views I don't know, anger issues springs to mind, but I do think it precludes doing public service jobs. 

Sorry for your experience @Kellens

 

[pepperbird]

5 hours ago, Halosglow said:

Someone saying their mortgage has been refused by all banks, or that they need to raise twice the deposit as a white person, because of the way they look, their name, their religion, or worse their skin tone, is not equivalent  to 'yeah, same thing with me, some dude was rude to me for being white'. But for some twisted reason, we want pull the cover back to ourselves and insist anti-white feelings are the same as systemic bias. 

 

What? Is this how you see things? You think white people get an incentive FROM BANKS? That is laughable. Bank owners hate all people they love their money they could not careless about where the money comes from. 

When we submitted our mortgage application, it was online. The person reviewing it had no way of knowing what race we are. Whether we were approved or not had nothing to do with our skin colour. How could it?

[Ellener]

2 hours ago, pepperbird said:

The person reviewing it had no way of knowing what race we are. Whether we were approved or not had nothing to do with our skin colour. How could it?

A friend of mine told me he named his children names which would not identify their racial profiling. My Taiwanese friend changed his name for that reason, he's educated and successful but said he encountered prejudice when he finished his studies and was applying for jobs. It's very common to have new 'American names' he said.

The 2005 book "Freakonomics-the Hidden Side of Everything" by Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner listed these as the 20 whitest- and blackest-sounding girl and boy names ( freakonomics.com )

20 "Whitest" Girl Names

Molly

Amy

Claire

Emily

Katie

Madeline

Katelyn

Emma

Abigail

Carly

Jenna

Heather

Katherine

Caitlin

Kaitlin

Holly

Allison

Kaitlyn

Hannah

Kathryn

20 "Blackest" Girl Names

Imani

Ebony

Shanice

Aaliyah

Precious

Nia

Deja

Diamond

Asia

Aliyah

Jada

Tierra

Tiara

Kiara

Jazmine

Jasmin

Jazmin

Jasmine

Alexus

Raven

20 "Whitest" Boy Names

Jake

Connor

Tanner

Wyatt

Cody

Dustin

Luke

Jack

Scott

Logan

Cole

Lucas

Bradley

Jacob

Garrett

Dylan

Maxwell

Hunter

Brett

Colin

20 "Blackest" Boy Names

DeShawn

DeAndre

Marquis

Darnell

Terrell

Malik

Trevon

Tyrone

Willie

Dominique

Demetrius

Reginald

Jamal

Maurice

Jalen

Darius

Xavier

Terrance

Andre

Darryl

 

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, Kellens said:

  I didn't hold a grudge and I mostly think of them all as as**holes, not of their race.  I don't like people who are cruel for no reason, and the people who tortured me fit into that category.  Their race didn't matter to me, who they were as a person did.

Well spoken, and I'm glad you have the self-awareness to keep a healthy perspective on it.

In my case I'm white, went to mostly white elementary, middle, and high schools, and was also bullied certain years - the vast majority of that by white kids. So agree with you - whomever does the bullying, it's them not their race.

Edited June 16, 2020 by mark clemson

[elaine567]

I get most of these names and their associations but Willie. Maurice and Reginald?
 

[Ellener]

@mark clemson bullying is another significant topic which comes up frequently now it's accepted as a damaging real thing: when I was a kid it was pretty much a response of 'so life's tough' if people complained, and it's an issue in way too many workplaces still, where a culture of bullying exists.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

I get most of these names and their associations but Willie. Maurice and Reginald?
 

I couldn't find how they got the list and I don't have a copy of the book any more. The website's really interesting and I got distracted too, I confess 🙂

[pepperbird]

I can't speak for the US, but I do know that race does play a role in university admissions here. No one talks about it, but it's happening.

My dad was a prof who also used to sit on the admissions board for the degree track he taught in, and back then ( that was about 20 years ago), they used to ask if someone was part of a minority racial group. 
No one had to answer, but if you checked "yes", that was a plus for you. In an effort to help make sure minorities were getting a fair chance, if you were a member of a minority group, you would get a bit of an advantage, all other requirements being equal.
I can understand why that was needed at the time, but it's still being asked now. Both my daughters were asked if they they self identify as part of a minority group. Those who do have access to scholarships and services, etc. that are not open to others.

I don't think it should matter. To me, merit should be the top criteria- a combination of academic ability and life experience.

[sothereiwas]

2 hours ago, pepperbird said:

No one had to answer, but if you checked "yes", that was a plus for you.

I'm pretty experienced at my job, and as such I've been on the hiring side of the interview process a lot more than the other side. We'd never take someone who we were sure couldn't do the job, but if we have a minority or (I'm in STEM) better yet, a woman applicant, we'd definitely try to hire them if we figured we could make them useful. At this stage in my career it's not an issue but if I was one of those entry level fellas that got passed over, I'd be a little more worried about it. 

[pepperbird]

5 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

I'm pretty experienced at my job, and as such I've been on the hiring side of the interview process a lot more than the other side. We'd never take someone who we were sure couldn't do the job, but if we have a minority or (I'm in STEM) better yet, a woman applicant, we'd definitely try to hire them if we figured we could make them useful. At this stage in my career it's not an issue but if I was one of those entry level fellas that got passed over, I'd be a little more worried about it. 

I'd like to know what goes on even before the application process.

I would like to know if minorities are applying at the same rate as whites, and if not, why? What are the barriers they encounter that might keep them from even applying in the first place? Like I said in another post with respect to disabled students- it's no good making  classroom accommodations for someone in a wheelchair if they can't even get into the building in the first place.

Edited June 17, 2020 by pepperbird

[sothereiwas]

10 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

I would like to know if minorities are applying at the same rate as whites, and if not, why?

In the case of women in STEM, it's probably just that the nature of the work isn't interesting to a lot of women. New doctors are mostly women. New engineers are mostly men. It takes a certain sort of almost-on-the-spectrum personality to really be good at this. Before games went online and became a form of social media, gaming was mostly a guy thing. Taking dad's pocket watch apart to see how it works, classic little boy behavior. 

I've known plenty of competent female engineers, but they are a minority and they are a different sort of person, just like their male counterparts. 

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

We've just come out of a time where for the past 20 years all we have saw in Cinema and Film, TV and Commercials, across the board, all white people... I believe we are entering a time of fatigue involving white people, we are tired of seeing them and this leads us into some dangerous waters. I dont like the idea of being a minority while being white... Were all gonna sit here and pretend like every race on the planet doesnt have a vendetta or look up to western culture in some form or fashion, of course they do, just as Amercian culture has a problem with China, its competitive out here.

[Prudence V]

I have a really nice diagram which explains the four dimensions of racism:

• structural
• institutional
• interpersonal
• internalised.

Proper racism involves all 4 - it’s a system, it’s not an event. 
 

What some people on this thread seem to be confusing, eg microaggressions or interpersonal acts, are one-off (or sometimes repeated, but involving the same groups of people) behaviours, but which while unpleasant are not part of a sustained system. Those are acts of prejudice, or of bigotry, but are not in and of themselves racism. 
 

 

 

[mark clemson]

7 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

I have a really nice diagram which explains the four dimensions of racism:

Well, it's not that they're confused I think. It's that many people define what I suspect would go under your interpersonal (and probably internalized) buckets, ie, the acts of prejudice or bigotry, AS racism. The language distinction I'm pretty sure noted earlier in this thread.

I suppose having a well-done diagram to explain the alternate (and reasonably common) definition is helpful for those with open minds who are inclined to stretch their definition.

[Ellener]

On 6/30/2020 at 10:47 AM, CAPSLOCK BANDIT said:

I dont like the idea of being a minority while being white...

I'm thinking about that...it should not make any difference if things are egalitarian?

[Prudence V]

On 6/30/2020 at 4:47 PM, CAPSLOCK BANDIT said:

I dont like the idea of being a minority while being white...

You’re American? Your people were a minority before they killed off the original Americans and stole their land.