Anti-white Prejudice - does it exist?

[homecoming]

It seems as if some people will never be able to possess empathy for others, instead, resorting to whataboutery and denial of others' reality. That will prevent society as a whole from making positive progress in regards to racism. Ah well!

[Timshel]

40 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

He's not important. The institutional disparities in how policies are enforced about this sort of thing - those are important. 

'About this sort of thing' have always been important.  Getting out of an evolutionary loop is best for all of us, not some.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Timshel
spelling

[sothereiwas]

8 minutes ago, Timshel said:

'About this sort of thing' have always been important.

Personal interactions are important on a personal level, but what the law allows wholesale defines us as a society. Perspective. 

[Timshel]

The law is society, society is the law.  Perspective.

 

[sothereiwas]

13 minutes ago, Timshel said:

The law is society, society is the law.  Perspective.

Informative, but I have to disagree. In much the same way that all salmon are fish but not all fish are salmon, society is not in my opinion solely defined by law, but allowing bad laws is a both a symptom of rot and a promotion of same in society. When I used 'defines' before I may have been carried away; the context is meant to convey that if a society allows law to permit institutions implementing and enforcing racially discriminatory policies, it is a promotion of rot and a sign of the same. 

Legally approving of institutions implementing and enforcing racially discriminatory policies is very damaging, whereas allowing people to behave as they wish within the normal bounds of the harm principle is a sign of a free society. 

[Timshel]

What is to disagree with, exactly?  All of our knowledge historically about us has been this...that we are fickle for whomever is in vogue/power at the time; that human people obliterate other human people to embiggen themselves to the powers that be.  History.

'Allowing people to behave as they wish within normal bounds is a sign of a free society.'  It's funny because someone posted on this forum that they just were really annoyed that any other posters would want them to think. about racial prejudice and felt bullied to do so, lol.  We can stay stuck, that is an individual freedom.

[sothereiwas]

5 minutes ago, Timshel said:

It's funny because someone posted on this forum that they just were really annoyed that any other posters would want

They're free to be annoyed I reckon. 

[Prudence V]

15 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

How so. I know examples in the past, but not now. What force is legally applied to cause this to be true?

“Force”? Are we living in Star Wars? 🤣

 

There’s a lot more to systemic racism than force. Persuasion, for example - watched any Murdoch-owned media lately? Sent your kids to any schools? Read any (mainstream) books? Watched (pretty much) any movies? 
 

I don’t know where you live, but I’m guessing it’s a capitalist society. Have you looked into how deeply racism is embedded in capitalism? So yes, laws in your country are probably steeped in a history of racism, even if some of the most egregiously racist have been undone (comparatively recently). 
 

Have you read up on transgenerational transmission of trauma? They’ve studied it in mainly survivors of the Holocaust, and their descendants, but it’s also true of survivors of slavery, and other forms of extreme racial trauma (apartheid, Zionism, etc). 
 

Have you read up on microaggressions, or studied social practice theory? Collected thick ethnographic data on daily interactions between people? 
 

I can’t believe I’m having to have this conversation. The evidence is everywhere. I guess there really are none so blind as those who will not see. 
 

 

[Prudence V]

12 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

allowing people to behave as they wish within the normal bounds of the harm principle is a sign of a free society. 

Mein Gott I’m glad I don’t live in a “free society”, then. I’d rather live in one where the vulnerable are protected, where responsibility comes with rights and where people think of others and not only themselves. 

[sothereiwas]

3 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Have you looked into how deeply racism is embedded in capitalism?

Capitalism is merely the idea that people have a right to own property, and a right to dispose of that property and to trade their labor as they see fit. How is that in any way race specific?

 

3 hours ago, Prudence V said:

I’d rather live in one where the vulnerable are protected

Look up the harm principle I guess. 

[pepperbird]

The topic seems to have veered away from whether or not white people can be impacted by bigotry.

They can be and they are, just as with every other race. This is because we're all human beings, and sadly, fear , which is one of the foundations of bigotry, is a basic human emotion. It doesn't matter what your political system is, how many social programs you have or anything else. You can't force or wish it away.

In my experience, the  best way to drive away bigotry is to engage in open  and honest discussion, and that's a two way street. It means both parties must be willing to eat some humble pie, but in the end, they'll be better for it.

 

[Prudence V]

On 7/24/2020 at 2:27 PM, sothereiwas said:

Capitalism is merely the idea that people have a right to own property

You left out the bit about profit. Profit results from the exploitation of labour - it is the difference between the exchange value of labour, and the amount paid as wages.  
 

look up capitalism I guess.

[sothereiwas]

11 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

You left out the bit about profit.

Profit might be a byproduct but it's not the defining characteristic of capitalism. Capitalism is about allowing people to own property and make their own choices. That's it. The goal is generally profit on both sides, and this is an intrinsic characteristic of any voluntary trade. Why would I buy a car if I felt the money was of more value to me than the car? Why would the dealer sell the car if they felt the car was worth more to them than my money? We both enter into a voluntary trade where we both feel we are improving our respective situations overall. 

That's capitalism. 

Some bad stuff can happen when people centralize too much power, and that is why we need effective means to ensure the market remains as open and free as possible, but that's all details of implementation. 

[Prudence V]

1 minute ago, sothereiwas said:

Profit might be a byproduct but it's not the defining characteristic of capitalism.

It certainly is. 

 

Quote

Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.[1][2][3][4] 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

[1] Zimbalist, Sherman and Brown, Andrew, Howard J. and Stuart (October 1988). Comparing Economic Systems: A Political-Economic Approach. Harcourt College Pub. pp. 6–7. ISBN 978-0-15-512403-5. Pure capitalism is defined as a system wherein all of the means of production (physical capital) are privately owned and run by the capitalist class for a profit, while most other people are workers who work for a salary or wage (and who do not own the capital or the product).

[2]^ Rosser, Mariana V.; Rosser, J Barkley (23 July 2003). Comparative Economics in a Transforming World Economy. MIT Press. p. 7. ISBN 978-0-262-18234-8. In capitalist economies, land and produced means of production (the capital stock) are owned by private individuals or groups of private individuals organized as firms.

[3]^ Chris Jenks. Core Sociological Dichotomies. "Capitalism, as a mode of production, is an economic system of manufacture and exchange which is geared toward the production and sale of commodities within a market for profit, where the manufacture of commodities consists of the use of the formally free labor of workers in exchange for a wage to create commodities in which the manufacturer extracts surplus value from the labor of the workers in terms of the difference between the wages paid to the worker and the value of the commodity produced by him/her to generate that profit." London; Thousand Oaks, CA; New Delhi. Sage. p. 383.

[4]^ Gilpin, Robert (5 June 2018). The Challenge of Global Capitalism : The World Economy in the 21st Century. ISBN 9780691186474. OCLC 1076397003.

[Ellener]

On 7/20/2020 at 12:16 PM, Amethyst68 said:

This is a sweeping generalisation and depends where in the world you live. Not everywhere has a population where the majority is white or where white people hold the power.

Houston is definitely not majority white and we seem to do okay in business, in interfaith religions, and learning how to survive Covid now.

 

[sothereiwas]

9 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Houston is definitely not majority white and we seem to do okay in business, in interfaith religions, and learning how to survive Covid now.

The sources I found say Houston is 57% white. 

[Ellener]

9 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

The sources I found say Houston is 57% white. 

It depends what you mean by white. I identify as an immigrant and my skin is white.

 

[elaine567]

Quote

White: 57.63%

Black or African American: 22.54%

Other race: 10.50%

Asian: 6.89%

Two or more races: 2.07%

Native American: 0.32%

Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander: 0.06%

Houston
https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities/houston-tx-population

1 minute ago, Ellener said:

I identify as an immigrant and my skin is white.

There is no "immigrant" group.

[sothereiwas]

1 minute ago, Ellener said:

It depends what you mean by white. I identify as an immigrant and my skin is white.

My buddy in the last office I worked in was an immigrant and he was Indian. A really good friend of 20 years is an immigrant from Italy and is lilly white. Whiteness and immigration status are disjoint attributes. 

[Emilie Jolie]

On 7/24/2020 at 6:35 PM, pepperbird said:

The topic seems to have veered away from whether or not white people can be impacted by bigotry.

Actually, those who did read the original post and the follow-up discussions will have understood that the topic was more about defining anti-white prejudice vs racism. The title of the thread was in poor choice - that's already been acknowledged a few times upthread - those who did read the thread throughout will have seen that too. 

On 7/24/2020 at 6:35 PM, pepperbird said:

It means both parties must be willing to eat some humble pie

There is no 'both parties' equivalency; this much is painfully obvious, as evidenced by the last 400 years of our history - this needs to be recognised loud and clear. It's not about eating humble pie, it's about contextualising. This doesn't mean living in the past or self-flagellating, it's simply understanding the causes so as to avoid repeating the same bad cycles.

I don't think being prejudiced or racist is in our DNA, it isn't 'human nature', and equal rights for all should be a given, yet it isn't. Those who don't have equal rights fight for them, those who are in positions of power don't want to let go and whip up fear and divisions as a tool to create distrust.

It's up to us to rise above it.

 

 

 

 

[Ellener]

2 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

My buddy in the last office I worked in was an immigrant and he was Indian. A really good friend of 20 years is an immigrant from Italy and is lilly white. Whiteness and immigration status are disjoint attributes. 

Then don't ever be racist!

And stand up always for equal rights for all.

 

 

 

[Ellener]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Houston
https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities/houston-tx-population

There is no "immigrant" group.

Most of Houston looking around me is Mexican origin and a large portion illegal.

It's very functional as a city. Probably the most functional city in the US.

[sothereiwas]

18 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Then don't ever be racist!

America gave a lot of blood to abolish slavery in North America and has continued the fight worldwide. Research says we are one of, if not the least, racist nation on earth. I don't think we are the most in need of such exhortations. 

[Ellener]

1 minute ago, sothereiwas said:

America gave a lot of blood to abolish slavery in North America and has continued the fight worldwide. Research says we are one of, if not the least, racist nation on earth. I don't think we are the most in need of such exhortations. 

In Houston slavery has continued, the trafficking of women and children in sex trade.

Presumably it would not exist without patronage.

If everyone said no to racism, to cruelty of any kind, it would be a whole different world.

 

[sothereiwas]

4 minutes ago, Ellener said:

In Houston slavery has continued, the trafficking of women and children in sex trade.

This sort of thing is facilitated by the outlawing of sex work. When you have a subgroup of people who can't avail themselves of legal recourse, they don't. 

That's getting off topic though I think. The point is, such things are illegal here. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by sothereiwas