Anti-white Prejudice - does it exist?

[Prudence V]

On 7/2/2020 at 7:23 PM, mark clemson said:

It's that many people define what I suspect would go under your interpersonal (and probably internalized) buckets, ie, the acts of prejudice or bigotry, AS racism.

I can define a circle as a square, it doesn’t make it so. Racism has four dimensions. People can pretend otherwise, so that they can claim victimhood, but it changes nothing about what racism actually is.
 

Any social science textbook will tell you what racism is. 

[sothereiwas]

10 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

original Americans

That's an interesting phrase. While it's more accurate than the more popular "native Americans", I'm curious how the original status would be determined? First to leave a footprint, the people europeans found living in the place when the europeans arrived, or some other measure? The precedence and entitlement that comes from being first to place a human foot on a place is hard to deny, but the facts seem to suggest that most of the land in NA changed hands several times before anyone from europe came along. 

So ... who was original, and how do we find out who actually still living descended from them?

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

27 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

You’re American? Your people were a minority before they killed off the original Americans and stole their land. 

My family is from Europe, they came to Canada in the 1930's and farmed in a manner more bestial than the animals they farmed, like 18-20 hour days, they were basically slaves, of their own enterprise, but slaves nonetheless... Because of their hard work and literal slavery, our current generations, 3 now, get to enjoy the benefits of their slavery.

Not all slavery is bad slavery... Sure, I reap the benefits of slavery basically while talking about how slavery isn't bad without ever experiencing it myself, but that is a privilege that has been afforded to me... I have always found it strange how people of color who share this privilege have nothing to say about Racism whatsoever.

[mark clemson]

43 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

I can define a circle as a square, it doesn’t make it so. Racism has four dimensions. People can pretend otherwise, so that they can claim victimhood, but it changes nothing about what racism actually is.

Hmmm. Perhaps so, but I'm certainly not pretending. To ME, based on the language use I've had my entire life, "racism" = (what some folks would call) prejudice. @elaine567 had a post suggesting she has a similar definition. I very much believe we are representative of a significant % of English speakers. We have handy terms like "institutional racism" and "structural racism" for when we wish to talk about those concepts.

You don't have to take offense (not sure if you are, but the circle/square thing seems to be a bit of an attack on my intelligence?). I'm just pointing out facts about how I speak. As you know, the same word can have different connotations (for example, you don't say "jelly" at the breakfast table in England, while in the US it's fine). When a sense of a word is legitimately used by a large number of people, it doesn't make sense to claim it's "wrong", vs. a difference in usage. Is the British definition of "jelly" wrong?

Although I haven't seen it, as I pointed about above the diagram is probably helpful for those who care to learn about the broader definition.

Personally I'm by no means trying to claim victimhood (as I understand the term) in the context of a discussion on racism. I'm white, well educated, and reasonably well-off by the standards of most, with a decent job, house in "suburbia" etc. I do recognize that part of that end result stems from advantages I was born into. I do think that the difference in definition hinders the conversation for some folks - I was one of them for some time before I understood that some people were using the term racism differently than I do.

Edited July 6, 2020 by mark clemson

[sothereiwas]

12 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

As you know, the same word can have different connotations

"Fanny" has earned a spot as probably my favorite. Git is a close second, as it was used by a Scandinavian ESL person to name a powerful revision control system (computer sciency stuff) and also has, apparently, other meanings. 

[mark clemson]

4 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

"Fanny" has earned a spot as probably my favorite.

Yes, I'm aware of that one as well. Definitely can lead to some misunderstandings, and I'm sure it has, heh...

 

[mark clemson]

This is OT, but I once saw a legitimate project folder on a corporate IT system named BDSM.  I was like - really?

[Emilie Jolie]

Let's call it anti-white racial prejudice for the purpose of this thread - hopefully that is acceptable to all. 

Semantics aside, it would be interesting to hear other people's views as to why anti-white prejudice is a thing.

[sothereiwas]

13 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Let's call it anti-white racial prejudice

I'm not sure that's a big thing, or a popular thing for lack of a better term. Racially based discrimination that cuts against non-blacks is pretty accepted in our society though. 

[Emilie Jolie]

I'm confused by your post [would normally use an emoji but LS has killed my love for them].

Are you saying there isn't really any anti-white racial prejudice? 

 

 

[amaysngrace]

I’m sure it exists but I don’t see it being a problem.  Whites are still very much more privileged than any other race, at least in America.

[Emilie Jolie]

I don't think it's a problem either but reading back some of posts on the thread, many posters seem to think as much; I am curious to know what their thought process is.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[sothereiwas]

10 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

I’m sure it exists but I don’t see it being a problem.

Any racial bias is a problem I guess, but I wouldn't consider it a huge issue in our society. On the other hand, we accept actual institutional policies and practices that implement racial discrimination against people who are non-black. That's a problem, and the fact that it's backed by major institutions as policy and practice elevates it above some other problems. 

[amaysngrace]

2 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

 On the other hand, we accept actual institutional policies and practices that implement racial discrimination against people who are non-black. 

Do you mean giving people an advantage, like knocking off points required for testing to allow less qualified applicants positions that more qualified individuals got passed over for?  Because, yes.  I do see that as being a problem.  

I was talking about living a ordinary life though.  I think being a white person is just easier in our society than being any other race in general.

[sothereiwas]

21 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

I do see that as being a problem.  

It's a problem, but I think the bigger problem is the legal and institutional acceptance of such policies. This is IMO very damaging to the core value of everyone being equal under law. 

[amaysngrace]

2 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

It's a problem, but I think the bigger problem is the legal and institutional acceptance of such policies. This is IMO very damaging to the core value of everyone being equal under law. 

And I see it as being a problem because if we lower our standards for some then it weakens us as a society especially when it comes to handing out a curve in the public sector.  Our tax dollars should buy us the best. 

[Emilie Jolie]

3 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

It's a problem, but I think the bigger problem is the legal and institutional acceptance of such policies. This is IMO very damaging to the core value of everyone being equal under law. 

If you want to speak about positive action in employment, you should probably open your own thread on this. This thread is about anti-white racial prejudice - a different thing. 

[sothereiwas]

20 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

This thread is about anti-white racial prejudice - a different thing. 

What is that exactly then?

[Emilie Jolie]

20 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

What is that exactly then?

You can have a look back at the opening post for the definition - in short, stereotypical assumptions based on skin colour, so really the same as other types of racial prejudice, but against whites - and for 7 pages of discussions in which many posters illustrated it with their own personal experiences and opinions.

Again, feel free to open your own thread specifically on positive action in the workplace. Sounds like you feel very strongly about it, which is fine, so maybe it does deserve its own thread.

[sothereiwas]

Just now, Emilie Jolie said:

You can have a look back at the opening post for the definition

Yeah, I believe the idea that racism requires a power imbalance is a recent innovation designed to stifle meaningful discussion, so most of what follows after that seems a bit nonsensical to me. Racism has had a well defined meaning, as captured in many dictionaries, for literally decades. To change the definition due to it being inconvenient is a very questionable tactic. 

[sothereiwas]

On 6/13/2020 at 5:08 PM, major_merrick said:

Any time you're the "other" it can get ugly pretty fast. 

I spent plenty of time in SEA being "the other" and you're spot on. Bigots exist everywhere, and can be bigoted against seemingly anything, anywhere. 

[mark clemson]

As an example of a problem from the past: "Irish need not apply."

Irish are not all whites, but it can be seen that the discrimination can impact anyone. So if it was true prejudice against whites, it would presumably negatively affect them in ways parallel to how blacks are affected now, e.g. stereotyped negative assumptions, closing off of some opportunities, having sneaky (or not so sneaky) a-holes who are out to get you, etc.

Edited July 6, 2020 by mark clemson

[major_merrick]

Driving through the city nearby today, I saw an SUV with "F*** Whitey" in big painted letters across the back window.  Lovely.  Kind of odd for this area....more like where I grew up.  I cannot imagine a vehicle with similar wording directed at another group being driven around the city un-harassed. 

And seeing something like that doesn't make me angry.  I'm used to it....freedom of speech is part of the USA.  Just makes me say to myself, "Well, I don't think I'll be having tea with them anytime soon." 

Edited July 7, 2020 by major_merrick

[Emilie Jolie]

I meant why does anti-white racial prejudice exist at all,  what's the origin of it.

[major_merrick]

@Emilie Jolie Sin.  The human condition.  That's where everything nasty begins.  Prejudice of any kind starts with flawed people...which is all of us no matter what group we're part of.