Are more women content on remaining unattached?

[Ruby Slippers]

1 minute ago, Piddy said:

We're not all like that Ruby.  haha   Let's see. 🤔   I do all the maintenance stuff around the house (except gardening).  I do all the pool stuff,  I do laundry (except the delicates), do dishes, vacuum, change cat litter, and do the taxes.  😉

You'd like me because I hate crumbs on the counter.  I always use a coaster for my glass.    And I do all the outside grilling.  And I cook my own dinner a lot because my wife eats a lot of salads during the week.

😍 You sound like my neighbor. They've been married for years, he maintains the yard and swimming pool, and it's a lush tropical paradise out there.

I could kind of pick up that he was not impressed with my ex's yard work skills. Our yards share a border, and his edges are always flawless, while with the ex mine were raggedy and sad-looking 😛 

[Ruby Slippers]

5 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Find your next guy at the Home Depot or Lowes... 

Cute guys always smile at me at Home Depot and I smile back but it is not my style to approach men!

[elaine567]

17 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

There are men who see things in a more egalitarian way, but I suspect these men might not be as “manly” as some women prefer. If one prefers a traditionally masculine man, that’s what they’re going to get. 

We have had two posters this week being disappointed by "traditional" men, one being Ruby.
"Traditional" men who were quite happy to sit back and let her do all the chores but when he needed to flex his "traditional" male muscle he was nowhere to be found either.
 

[Woggle]

5 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

He will be a disappointment to someone who prioritizes those things. But you can’t change someone into something they’re not. If he genuinely doesn’t care about that stuff, he doesn’t care. He’s happier doing other things.

There are men who see things in a more egalitarian way, but I suspect these men might not be as “manly” as some women prefer. If one prefers a traditionally masculine man, that’s what they’re going to get. 

Exactly. There are plenty of men who are more egalitarian but they are also not dominant alphas who so many women seem to be drawn to on a primal level. This is one of the many reasons modern relationships don't work out these days. Also for some women it is never enough. I know a guy right now who is going through it because by her admission he does the majority of the housework and did the majority of the childcare but now that the kids are teenagers and more independent he has more free time and god forbid he wants some hobbies to himself. I honestly think a lot of women who complain about men all the time want ammo to use against us instead of actually wanting us to change. If we did change to then there would another complaint and another and another and so on. 

Another thing is that my wife has told me herself I am the easiest person she has ever lived with. Even when single my place has always been very clean and I have kept that up in relationships.

[SumGuy]

10 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Not in my case. One of the nails in the coffin for me this time is that not only did he do next to no housework, not only did he fall short of his commitment to do the yard work to the point that I got a complaint letter from the HOA, but he also refused to help pay for any kind of services to do these things. In the home upkeep arena, talk about dead weight.

This is a guy who can easily afford to pay for these services without any impact to his lifestyle whatsoever. This is also a guy who communicated to me in every way possible that I'm the one he's been looking for all these years. 

My point is that it seems no matter how good it gets, this guy will be a disappointment in the home upkeep arena. I get the feeling he's not that unusual. And this is almost certainly one of the biggest drags that women experience in cohabiting relationships with men.

It's an entitlement mentality, and in my experience often supported in the man's head by a "traditional gender roles" view of life.   

Also in my experience what most men fail to grasp that traditional gender roles for men (especially the definition of such roles as women who hold such views seem to believe) are much more than acting macho, its about self-discipline and self-control and also a lot of emotional support for your woman, you are her rock and never make her feel less than.  There is no excuse at all for cheating or wandering eye in what I was taught were traditional gender roles.

So cleaning doesn't come natural to you?  Man up get some self discipline and control and don't make a mess, get off the couch and do that yard work.  That to me is what I learnt traditional meant (at least to those who grew up in the 1930s and 40s or grew up on the farm)...it is not the same thing as what seems to be bandied about these days by men.  Of course it is not new that people want for themselves all the power with no responsibility, but when it comes to others they need to accept having less or no power yet still need to be responsible. 

I've relatives in traditional gender role relationships, farmers/ranchers mostly so plenty of work to go around for everyone, and let me tell you it ain't no easy ride for the man...and frankly no matter what words they say, and how much they are the man of the house, the women run the show.  It seems to work and is a partnership unless one of them takes to drinking...not that uncommon actually.

[Ruby Slippers]

3 minutes ago, nospam99 said:

^^^ My ex-wife might have 'wanted' a nice home. But she NEVER did any work to make that happen, not in her first marriage, not when she was living alone between marriages, certainly not when we lived together, and not after she moved out and bought her own home. It was one of the two major problems (other was parenting) that broke the marriage. She talked a good game but never delivered. So Ruby, YOU may be a 'homemaker'. But be careful about generalizing.

I know you're right - some women are lazy as hell, too. Some of the men on this board seem to do more of the work to maintain a home while their gfs/wives do next to nothing. 

[Happy Lemming]

1 minute ago, Ruby Slippers said:

 I smile back but it is not my style to approach men!

Just ask him a question... any question... about anything... You can tell if he wants to keep the conversation going.

You want the right guy, go to the right pond and use the correct bait!!  He's there. 

[Woggle]

Just now, elaine567 said:

We have had two posters this week being disappointed by "traditional" men, one being Ruby.
"Traditional" men who were quite happy to sit back and let her do all the chores but when he needed to flex his "traditional" male muscle he was nowhere to be found either.
 

They might not like it when they are in relationships but that energy is what attracts them in the first place. Even Ruby herself has said that she likes dominant kind of men in the past. Maybe that will change since now but many women who run into problems keep trying to turn these dominant and alpha kind of men into something they are not and then get frustrated with men in general when that never seems to work. Men do it too. They complain and complain about gold diggers but then are not attracted to women who go out and earn an honest living. They want a traditional woman but they don't want to provide. All these things are why gender relations these days are just screwed.

[Weezy1973]

8 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

I don't know any woman who doesn't want a nice, harmonious, clean home and yard.

I suggest that men should consider evolving in this department.

Single women are now generally expected to be nurturing and caretaking at home (feminine energy), as well as shrewd and ambitious in their careers (masculine energy). Most of us are doing that pretty well, and we've had to evolve from the way most of our mothers were to get it all done. 

Women put that pressure / expectation on themselves and that’s fine. Like I said if anybody, man or woman doesn’t really care about keeping a home, that’s absolutely okay. Nobody is designed to make us happy. And that might make them incompatible which is also fine.

And as I said previously the desire for a partner specifically designed for ourselves and our predilections is an unrealistic expectation. If you want a masculine man, chances are he’s going to fill the traditional masculine role. If you want someone who genuinely cares about keeping a home, he’s unlikely to be as masculine. Which do you choose? 

[Ruby Slippers]

@SumGuy, yes. I was kind of OK with doing all the housework, once he agreed to do the yard work. The problem came in when he failed to do the yard work right and the HOA got onto me. I showed him the letter and he blew it off, acted as if he was above doing the job right, and wouldn't budge. 

I felt like... how in the hell can I have sex with a guy who's so lazy and selfish that he won't even take care of the yard, especially when I'm doing all this other stuff and already feeling it's out of whack? I couldn't. With that, I pretty much lost all attraction and respect for him. So there was no point in continuing.

[Weezy1973]

11 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

We have had two posters this week being disappointed by "traditional" men, one being Ruby.
"Traditional" men who were quite happy to sit back and let her do all the chores but when he needed to flex his "traditional" male muscle he was nowhere to be found either.
 

I got the impression he didn’t care about keeping a home full stop. Indoors or outdoors. He may have found his worth in his career / making money, and didn’t care about the upkeep of the home. Also my understanding was that Ruby’s ex’s home was a disaster, so it’s not like he did all these chores when he was on his own and then expected Ruby to do them when he lived with her. He didn’t care about it in both cases. He was consistent.

[Ruby Slippers]

On masculine men... a masculine man takes care of the yard. In the traditional sphere, mowing, edging, and blowing the yard - anything requiring heavy machinery - is man's work. 

We agreed that I'd do most of the housework and he'd do the "man's work" - fixing stuff around the house, mowing, edging, and blowing, taking out the trash. While he made some effort to do these things, it pretty much always fell short, so short that the HOA threatened to fine me if a better job wasn't done.

A man isn't going to get the king of the castle treatment unless he does the work of the king of the castle, or at least agrees to pitch in to pay someone else to do it. He refused to hold up his end of the bargain.

[Piddy]

22 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

😍 You sound like my neighbor. They've been married for years, he maintains the yard and swimming pool, and it's a lush tropical paradise out there.

I could kind of pick up that he was not impressed with my ex's yard work skills. Our yards share a border, and his edges are always flawless, while with the ex mine were raggedy and sad-looking 😛 

One confession.  We're in Florida and we hire a lawn guy.    It's too hot for me to mow.  haha   When we first moved in I bought a $400 Toro mower.  Used it a few times and that was that.  Sat in the garage until I gave it to my brother in law.  I pay a guy $60 a month (used to be $50) to mow, edge and blow (the grass clippings 😀)  And my wife likes to take care of the flowers etc..

Other than that I do all the other maintenance stuff that you could think of.  Recently installed a new outside light by the garage door for example.  I just became Medicare eligible and don't go up on the roof to clean the gutters anymore either.  And we had our house painted recently and are having it painted on the inside right now.  I wasn't up for that job either. 

But other that that I carry my weight around here.  🙂

  

Edited June 17, 2020 by Piddy

[Woggle]

2 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

On masculine men... a masculine man takes care of the yard. In the traditional sphere, mowing, edging, and blowing the yard - anything requiring heavy machinery - is man's work. 

We agreed that I'd do most of the housework and he'd do the "man's work" - fixing stuff around the house, mowing, edging, and blowing, taking out the trash. While he made some effort to do these things, it pretty much always fell short, so short that the HOA threatened to fine me if a better job wasn't done.

A man isn't going to get the king of the castle treatment unless he does the work of the king of the castle, or at least agrees to pitch in to pay someone else to do it. He refused to hold up his end of the bargain.

This is true. If you want to be traditional then hold up your end of the bargain. 

[FMW]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but seriously, it's all about compatibility.  As always. 

If you have a list of intractable "rules" (and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that) then you have to find a partner that has those same rules.  Expecting someone to change and follow your rules just because they seem completely reasonable and right to you just isn't realistic, especially over the age of 30. 

[Happy Lemming]

2 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

A man isn't going to get the king of the castle treatment unless he does the work of the king of the castle, or at least agrees to pitch in to pay someone else to do it. He refused to hold up his end of the bargain.

It wasn't HIS home, he was not a stakeholder in your home.  He was a guest, for lack of a better term.

Why should he pay to have someone mow, edge and clean up YOUR yard??  He had his own place and the expenses that accompany that residence. You guys weren't married, so why co-mingle expenses??

[Woggle]

4 minutes ago, FMW said:

I hate to beat a dead horse, but seriously, it's all about compatibility.  As always. 

If you have a list of intractable "rules" (and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that) then you have to find a partner that has those same rules.  Expecting someone to change and follow your rules just because they seem completely reasonable and right to you just isn't realistic, especially over the age of 30. 

This is true but it was sort of an audition to sharing a home and he failed.

[Ruby Slippers]

3 minutes ago, Piddy said:

One confession.  We're in Florida and we hire a lawn guy.    It's too hot for me to mow.  haha   When we first moved in I bought a $400 Toro mower.  Used it a few times and that was that.  Sat in the garage until I gave it to my brother in law.  I pay a guy $60 a month (used to be $50) to mow, edge and blow (the grass clippings 😀)  And my wife likes to take care of the flowers etc..  

Perfectly reasonable! I used to have a yard guy I paid $60 a month to mow, edge, and blow. Then my boyfriend convinced me to buy a mower and edger so he could do it for me. I recall vividly our conversation in Home Depot. I said, "Now, if I spend $300 on this stuff, are you going to do the work? Because if you're NOT, I don't want to buy this stuff, cuz I'd much rather keep paying the guy to do it." We went over exactly what was involved. And he knows. He has his own house out of state and he and his grown son do all the yard work there. He's complained to me several times about how his son is a slacker who never does it right - especially the snow shoveling - and he always has to go over his work and fix it. 

Yes, yes, he said, I'll do the work, let's do it.

A month or so later, after complaining several times about how he never edged or blowed and it looked bad, I said, "It seems like you don't really want to do this. Should I call my yard guy again and have him get back to doing it?" I was going to pay for this. It's my house. Even though I blew the $300 for nothing, I was still going to take responsibility for it.

No, no, I'll do it, he said.

A month later, threatening letter from the HOA. At that point, he blows it off, acted as if he's above the yard work. 

To his credit, he offered to pay me back for the mower and edger, since he didn't hold up his end of the bargain. Normally I would have just let it go. In this case, I felt it was only fair, since I never would have bought that stuff without him convincing me to and promising to do the work, and he did pay me back. So at least he has some semblance of integrity.

[Ruby Slippers]

5 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

It wasn't HIS home, he was not a stakeholder in your home.  He was a guest, for lack of a better term.

Why should he pay to have someone mow, edge and clean up YOUR yard??  He had his own place and the expenses that accompany that residence. You guys weren't married, so why co-mingle expenses??

I never asked him to. Please read my latest post in this thread for the full story. He was the one who brought up marriage a while ago and made all the moves to get us "playing house." We both had voluntarily assumed many "husband" and "wifely" duties. We were trying it on, seeing if it worked. In the end, it didn't.

[SumGuy]

35 minutes ago, Woggle said:

...All these things are why gender relations these days are just screwed.

  Only if you buy into the world view from which they arise.  Which many seem to do, so yes it's screwed up.  

Part of my fascination with this stuff is for most of my life have heard all these stories about men this, women that.  Never encountered it, but then again never traveled in circles where the "traditional" or "natural" were given much credence as anything but cultural.  Also never found men and women who didn't give credence to the  "traditional" or "natural" gender roles were any less "masculine" or "feminine" or in any way shape or form less in bed, very much the opposite really...you don't need to accept the toxic side of "traditional masculinity or femininity" to get all the positive stuff associated with those words.

Wasn't until I got older encountered it and had convinced myself that such things didn't really exist, but they do, oh so much for people that believe them.  Problem was easily enough solved for me though by just not dating women with such views.  To each their own though...and for them here's a song

[Happy Lemming]

2 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

 We were trying it on, seeing if it worked. In the end, it didn't.

In the end, he reimbursed you for the equipment, so there was no loss (which is good)

If he hadn't, I'd still say you escaped with minor damage (financially).  A divorce would have been A LOT more expensive. 

"Playing House" seemed to work in this situation, you learned what you needed to about this particular gentleman.

 

[FMW]

21 minutes ago, Woggle said:

and he failed.

Yes, he failed Ruby's requirements, and she's well within her rights to boot him out because of it.

That doesn't mean someone else might not be just fine with him.  So again - compatibility.

Edited June 17, 2020 by FMW

[SumGuy]

27 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

On masculine men... a masculine man takes care of the yard. In the traditional sphere, mowing, edging, and blowing the yard - anything requiring heavy machinery - is man's work. 

We agreed that I'd do most of the housework and he'd do the "man's work" - fixing stuff around the house, mowing, edging, and blowing, taking out the trash. While he made some effort to do these things, it pretty much always fell short, so short that the HOA threatened to fine me if a better job wasn't done.

A man isn't going to get the king of the castle treatment unless he does the work of the king of the castle, or at least agrees to pitch in to pay someone else to do it. He refused to hold up his end of the bargain.

Exactly, and why I will often say that a true traditional relationship is very much a partnership...it just happens when the division of work is along certain lines it is "traditional."  It does seem to work in those situations where there is lots and lots of non-stop rural work to do....not so much in more suburban settings. 

[Ruby Slippers]

1 minute ago, SumGuy said:

not so much in more suburban settings. 

I have these very nice neighbors who've been married for decades and it seems to work beautifully for them. He does all the outdoor work, she does the indoor work, and they seem very happy and well-balanced together. He's close to what I imagine is the ideal man - strong, hard-working, no-nonsense, also generous, sensitive, and loving.

[Woggle]

We just have a condo which saves the yard work but we share all the housework.