Wealth inequality

[eleanorrigby]

My friend recently got the EBT card meant for her daughter who qualifies for the school lunch program. We met as new hires at a restaurant in our mid-20's and worked together for 10 years.  She's a single mom,  living with her daughter and mother in a one bedroom apartment. She's a good parent, and a good person.. I've told her story here before, she got a degree in chemistry and then got a waitress job to pay off her college loans. She never did get a chance to use her degree. She waited tables with, then at a grocery store almost 20 years until they started looking for ways to fire off the long term cashiers,  and now works at a dentist office as a receptionist. She took a leap at the American dream and didn't make it. 

She's not lazy, she works hard and always has but  she is still low income enough for her daughter to qualify for the school lunch program and the emergency pandemic EBT card that they sent to any parent who has a child that qualifies. 

What sort of hammer would you bring down on her @Schlumpy? 

In the midst of all the "losers' who bring no value to America, commit crime and have dozens of babies they can't feed are people like my friend  who could also  use the help.  I don't want people my friend to not be able to the help they need because we don't want to help others who need help that we don't like.

[schlumpy]

1 hour ago, Libby1 said:

I think the size and situation of the middle class is a good indicator.  Where you have a shrinking middle class, with most of the members of that middle class experiencing financial decline, then sooner or later it reaches a point where a lot of people who would once have been politically moderate move towards a more politically extreme position.  

 

When my brother and I were small, my mother worked as a teacher while my dad was a student.  She and my dad got a mortgage on a 3 bed terraced house based on her salary.  They managed. I'm sure they both managed their money very well, but no matter how good a couple were with their money...there's no way that in this day and age they could manage what my parents managed. 

In order for people to actually have a real shot, in the current climate, at starting a business and making it work, I think small businesses need to be set free from the kind of requirements that are imposed on larger businesses.  It's not about making it harder and more bureaucratic for smaller businesses, but making it less so.  When you have complex and onerous employment laws and red tape that apply to businesses across the board, the huge corporations have an advantage over small ones because they have the resources to deal with it.  So I'm not looking for systems that make it harder and more complicated for smaller businesses to operate.  I'm looking for the exact opposite.

I am very surprised that my response has generated this much activity. This topic isn't one that gets the blood moving for most people. A lot of the time I get the impression half the participants in the forum have me on ignore.

I do believe I remember something about the middle class shrinking but I wonder if it is actually shrinking or someone is moving the goal posts. We have quite a few Illegal residents to pad the statistics and what it means to be middle class as evolved over the years. Personally I don't care what happens to the middle class. I make decisions based on my best interest and not the interests of my neighbor and he does the same. We get along quite well. I have enough to worry about with my wife's illness and he has to worry about raising his grandkids. The middle class will just have to fend for itself.

I certainly agree with you about small business being held back by regulation that they cannot afford to take on. Larger businesses will encourage rules and regulations they can afford knowing that it will break the backs of their small business competitors.

And so we end up in agreement. A very nice place to be.

It looks like a very sunny day here in Ohio Libby. A very pleasant 29C is the predicted high.

[schlumpy]

54 minutes ago, eleanorrigby said:

What sort of hammer would you bring down on her @Schlumpy? 

In the midst of all the "losers' who bring no value to America, commit crime and have dozens of babies they can't feed are people like my friend  who could also  use the help.  I don't want people my friend to not be able to the help they need because we don't want to help others who need help that we don't like.

And that's the rub. What do you do? Someone always gets caught in the rapids when crossing the river. No matter what human system is installed some people will find themselves on the outside. The church used to pick up a lot of slack but they've been beaten back.

I don't have a good answer at the moment or at least one that would hold up to scrutiny I only have experience as a guide.

When I was kid I don't remember children starving to death. In fact, I don't remember children having anywhere near as many psychological and emotional problems as todays kids do. What were we as a society doing back then? Society is much more affluent today then in the 1960's. Why are kids starving now but not then? 

 

[Ruby Slippers]

With my new job and salary, I'm right on the borderline between struggling middle class and comfortable upper middle class. I've worked my butt off and made huge sacrifices to get to this point. So I understand aspects from both sides of the discussion.

I've always felt a strong calling to help change the world for the better, support a more loving, humanitarian approach to existence. 

There are no easy answers, but I'm doing what I can.

[Emilie Jolie]

7 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

Why are kids starving now but not then?

In the UK, house prices have risen by 435% in the last 30 years; salaries haven't. We have now accepted that the concept of a 'job for life' is gone. Zero hour contracts are the norm.We have more stuff yes, but does it mean we have a better quality of life? Medical advances are phenomenal, yet many people can't access them. We have better access to technology but we don't make as many human connections in real life, to the point where dating online has become the primary way to meet people. Food is healthier and of better quality, but unhealthy food is cheaper and easier to access.

So plenty of people are being priced out of a decent quality of life because of the greed of others.

[Libby1]

1 hour ago, schlumpy said:

Personally I don't care what happens to the middle class. I make decisions based on my best interest and not the interests of my neighbor and he does the same. We get along quite well. I have enough to worry about with my wife's illness and he has to worry about raising his grandkids. The middle class will just have to fend for itself.

 

When the middle class shrinks and you have this mega gap between the extremely wealthy, a few in the middle and a massive amount of seriously struggling people, I think that's when things begin to go badly wrong in a society.  I don't think the unrest that has been bubbling up is something that's just going to fade away.  I can understand somebody in your situation saying "well, I have enough to worry about so I don't want to get involved".  Which is fine.  I'm not an advocate of the sort of activism that grabs people by the lapels and shouts "you must get involved".

What recent activity shows, however, is that a lot of people do have a passion for getting involved and for activism...and potentially that could be channeled towards positive change.  Mainly I started this thread because I wanted to see what kind of changes people would like to see in their society, that they believe would help to reduce the inequalities that are leading to this situation where there's downward rather than upward mobility.  It saddens me to see the younger members of my family facing difficulties that the generations before them didn't face.  The "work hard enough and you will succeed" argument was fair 30 years ago, but I'm afraid that although we still have to instill that work ethic in younger people the "and you will succeed" part is something of a lie.  

[Ellener]

4 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

I think relying on 'kindness' and 'empathy' alone is super risky

In almost all people it's what actually works. Unfortunately that 1 % use a lot of their wealth trying to convince us all!

Edited June 19, 2020 by Ellener
add to

[Ruby Slippers]

4 minutes ago, Libby1 said:

When the middle class shrinks and you have this mega gap between the extremely wealthy, a few in the middle and a massive amount of seriously struggling people, I think that's when things begin to go badly wrong in a society.  I don't think the unrest that has been bubbling up is something that's just going to fade away.

Exactly. When people feel so callously cut off from even basic resources, that's when the looting and guillotines come out.

FDR convinced the wealthy to contribute some of their bounty to the post-Depression New Deal with the argument that they would probably end up losing a lot more of their wealth through revolt and chaos if they didn't. 

[thefooloftheyear]

25 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Exactly. When people feel so callously cut off from even basic resources, that's when the looting and guillotines come out.

 

And yet,  they somehow manage to find the resources for booze, cigarettes, dope, fancy cars, Iphones, clothes/shoes,jewelry, lottery tickets etc....AND birth multiple children when they can't properly provide for themselves...

We provide safety nets for millions of people that truly need it and want to get a start or need to get through difficult times...That what the system is designed to do...But at what point do some that have failed for generations to figure out the most basic concepts of why effed up priorities is a personal choice/responsibility and that its up to them to break that chain?  

You always talk about Dave Ramsey and follow his advice(I guess) there are tons of people that call into his show and share stories about how with meager income(s) they can live comfortable lives and not be saddled with debt necessitating  having to smash a plate glass window at Target for a big screen or smash your grandma over the head for her purse..

TFY

Edited June 19, 2020 by thefooloftheyear

[Weezy1973]

So not entirely sure what definitions people are using, but what I find helpful is the following:

Poor = income from government programs

Middle Class = income from their labor

Wealthy = income from assets

And of course there are in between areas as well. As a free society you want people to be able to move up. So if you’re born into poverty, there’s enough social support that you have the opportunity to move into middle class. In most western democracies the main sources of this are public education and universal healthcare. That’s where the bulk of wealth redistribution gets allocated. 
 

It must be noted that just because people have the opportunity to better themselves or the lives of their kids, doesn’t mean people take advantage of that. You can’t force people to do things. But the opportunity is there. 
 

One of the reasons for the wealth gap now is that people are not getting married or having families in their 20s. Without that push of family responsibility, there is now and “extended adolescence” that people go through in their 20s with very little responsibility and that delays (on average) wealth accumulation and increased income. 
 

Put another way, more people are content to remain in their low paying / low responsibility jobs for longer because there’s nothing motivating them to do more. That’s hipster culture basically in a nutshell. 

[schlumpy]

17 minutes ago, Libby1 said:

I don't think the unrest that has been bubbling up is something that's just going to fade away I can understand somebody in your situation saying "well, I have enough to worry about so I don't want to get involved".  Which is fine.  I'm not an advocate of the sort of activism that grabs people by the lapels and shouts "you must get involved".

What recent activity shows, however, is that a lot of people do have a passion for getting involved and for activism...and potentially that could be channeled towards positive change.  Mainly I started this thread because I wanted to see what kind of changes people would like to see in their society, that they believe would help to reduce the inequalities that are leading to this situation where there's downward rather than upward mobility.  It saddens me to see the younger members of my family facing difficulties that the generations before them didn't face.  The "work hard enough and you will succeed" argument was fair 30 years ago, but I'm afraid that although we still have to instill that work ethic in younger people the "and you will succeed" part is something of a lie.  

You've caught me by surprise Libby. If it was a lie then I've been living that lie for many years. I hate to think you have a such a bleak outlook so please consider.

The 1960's was a time of tumultuous events in the states and yet nothing much changed and that was because it was only a miniscule part of the population involved. What was true then and is true now. Despite the constant barrage on television, this is small event in the world that in the US at least, will only last into November. I firmly believe that. The majority of everything is happening in cites that have been controlled by the democratic party for many years including my own.

I think Libby, that if you get yourself into a position where you are financially secure and not a burden on others then what else can I ask of you as a citizen or anyone for that matter? If you wish to go beyond those criteria then that's up to you. At least you have your feet on solid ground before you attempt to help others.

I could lay out how I managed to create a safety net for myself but I don't think you would receive it as anything but luck on my part. I'm not trying to profane your ability to understand but I know through experience how difficult it is to get people to believe me. It's probably a personality thing. I'm not much a salesman.

My biggest failure was my own siblings who I begged and pleaded with to look at what I was doing and understand that they could too. One of my sisters did try and did improve her lot for which she thanks me every now and then, but she started too late and although what she accumulated is a fortune to her, the expenses she will incur after she retires will not agree. Her plan is to take a portion of one of her Ex husbands social security. My other three siblings ignored me or said we can't afford to do that. So it's SS for them.

They could afford new motorcycles. They could afford cruises. They could afford high end computers and cell phones. Save some money in the market so they would have some options when they retire? That wasn't for them.

As the past has shown, there is no way predict if changes from protesting will improve anything. I only have my vote to influence events. I will give you that if I believed throwing a brick through the window of the CDC would make them work on a cure for MS, I would be tempted to do it. I guess that is the extent of my activism. Trying to protect those I love.

I have a senior pass to all the National Parks that has not been used. 

 

[Ruby Slippers]

29 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said:

And yet,  they somehow manage to find the resources for booze, cigarettes, dope, fancy cars, Iphones, clothes/shoes,jewelry, lottery tickets etc....AND birth multiple children when they can't properly provide for themselves...

We provide safety nets for millions of people that truly need it and want to get a start or need to get through difficult times...That what the system is designed to do...But at what point do some that have failed for generations to figure out the most basic concepts of why effed up priorities is a personal choice/responsibility and that its up to them to break that chain?  

You always talk about Dave Ramsey and follow his advice(I guess) there are tons of people that call into his show and share stories about how with meager income(s) they can live comfortable lives and not be saddled with debt necessitating  having to smash a plate glass window at Target for a big screen or smash your grandma over the head for her purse..

TFY

I haven't wasted my money on luxury items that aren't necessities or done any of the irresponsible things you mentioned.

The #1 reason for financial ruin and bankruptcy in the U.S. is medical debt. The biggest strain on my budget for most of my adult life has been health insurance and health care. I'm probably in the top 5% of healthy in my age group, always have been, but even routine and minor health care costs an absolute fortune. I never enjoyed any kind of safety net or support in this domain.

A few years ago when I needed major surgery for the first time, a millionaire surgeon had her business office tell me just a few days before the scheduled surgery that she wouldn't do it unless I paid her the entire cost upfront, a small fortune that I did not have. So I suffered for several months while looking for a decent doctor who would allow me to make payments over a few years.

I'm all about peace and love, but I can tell you that episode evoked a burning rage toward that bitch and the system. How could a person who's worked so hard and followed all the rules all this time be shut out so callously when she needed a little support? It isn't right.

Of course, I didn't express my rage in a destructive way, even though she deserves it. But history has shown time and again that some people in similar and worse circumstances do eventually snap. I know the disconnected, buffered wealthy generally do not care and will not care unless they feel the blowback directly.

[notbroken]

The 'millionaire surgeon' likely isn't.  They have HUGE expenses, student loans, insurance, and often do not get paid for their work.    Class envy.   Never good.   Why not just become a 'millionaire surgeon'?  Oh yea - you'd need to go to school, work hard to get top grades,  then go to school for 12 more years in a field so difficult you couldn't work PT, etc.  Then you could go into debt to get all the latest equipment, an office, etc (ie. very risky situation in which you are essentially gambling your whole future), often to get stiffed by people that never pay or want to 'pay over time'.   Your expenses for the office, anesthesiologist, nurses, etc all need to be paid immediately so you would actually be loaning money to people that want to pay over time - meaning you are seriously in the red/negative on the day you do the surgery.   Yet they are a 'bitch' for not wanting to do that. 

I know that won't be popular, but that is the reality for the 'millionaire surgeon' who is likely seriously in debt unless they are very late in their career.   

 

 

[Ellener]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

what I find helpful is the following:

Poor = income from government programs

Middle Class = income from their labor

Wealthy = income from assets

I wouldn't fit any of your definitions! 

 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, notbroken said:

the 'millionaire surgeon' who is likely seriously in debt unless they are very late in their career.   

In today's society increasingly so, as with most professions.

College debt is the new marriage for many young people, they are then strapped in to a socially-perceived-necessary long working life for decades to pay off debt. I think it means for many they then can't marry because of the dual pressures to be 'a good provider' before you do in most societies. So they look for relationship fulfillment in open ended arrangements, then once they are fulfilled in having sex or children outside social norms the don't have an imperative for reproduction or relationships or work as defined by others...it's freedom.

None of this is ground-breaking thoughts except it's readily available on the internet in 2020 in a free country, eg.

Sex and Culture is a book by J. D. Unwin concerning the correlation between a country's cultural achievement and its sexual restraint. Published in 1934, the book concluded with the theory that as societies develop, they become more sexually liberal, diminishing the Social entropy of the society, along with its "creative" and "expansive" energy, or capabilities to produce culture and gain power. 

WIKI

 

[Ruby Slippers]

12 minutes ago, notbroken said:

Yet they are a 'bitch' for not wanting to do that. 

She is a bitch for scheduling the surgery without any discussion of her requirement for up front payment. I asked her this question up front but she refused to discuss it. Only once I was on the hook, once I'd scheduled the time off through work, just a few days before the scheduled surgery, she dropped that bomb on me. Extremely unprofessional and callous.

I researched and found this is a growing problem happening to people all over. I got off easy. Many old people on a fixed income who get this gangster treatment simply can't afford their surgeries and die. But nope, nothing wrong here, nothin' to see folks, system works fine!

[Weezy1973]

14 minutes ago, Ellener said:

I wouldn't fit any of your definitions! 

 

Those are very general and most people would fit in somewhere (and many are some sort of combination). To truly not fit (I.e. live with no money), you’d have to be somewhat off the grid. 

[Libby1]

1 hour ago, Ruby Slippers said:

A few years ago when I needed major surgery for the first time, a millionaire surgeon had her business office tell me just a few days before the scheduled surgery that she wouldn't do it unless I paid her the entire cost upfront, a small fortune that I did not have. So I suffered for several months while looking for a decent doctor who would allow me to make payments over a few years.

I'm all about peace and love, but I can tell you that episode evoked a burning rage toward that bitch and the system. How could a person who's worked so hard and followed all the rules all this time be shut out so callously when she needed a little support? It isn't right.

Of course, I didn't express my rage in a destructive way, even though she deserves it. But history has shown time and again that some people in similar and worse circumstances do eventually snap. I know the disconnected, buffered wealthy generally do not care and will not care unless they feel the blowback directly.

The payment issue is very difficult.  Common practice in my profession is to ask for a payment up front,  because otherwise you can end up expending a huge amount of time chasing payments which in some cases you'll never get (eg if a client goes bankrupt).  In that situation, we're doing work over a lengthy period of time, so instalment payments make more sense.  With healthcare that's going to be a lot harder especially where it's a case of one off surgery.  If the surgeon does a few operations that she ends up not getting paid for, and there's no recourse (eg if the patient has no assets and legal action isn't likely to accomplish anything) then she could soon go from being a millionaire to having a business that's in serious trouble. 

I absolutely sympathise with you.  I hate asking clients for money up front, and have always tried to be accommodating of their means.  The easiest, most pleasant job I had was where our clients were all insurance companies.  No worries about getting paid there.  Helping people is a much tougher gig.  Far more emotionally draining and that awful situation of having to chase people for payment.  The professionals who do well financially in that area tend to be pretty ruthless in getting as much money as they can up front.  The nicer ones you found...they're the ones who might end up struggling and having sleepless nights about how staff salaries.  Some of those nice ones might, a few years down the road, become more ruthless not because they want to be but because the future of their business depends on it.  

Of course, universal health care would prevent the sort of problem you're talking about...yet still allow those who are very wealthy to go down the private medical care route if they preferred (as a lot of them probably do).   My father worked in the health sector and he did a mix of National Health Service work (the bulk of what he did) and some private patient work.  When a person is working that way,  not only are they able to help people who wouldn't otherwise have the funds for much needed treatment...but if they do some private work that they end up not being paid for then at least there isn't the same high risk of running into serious difficulties if they don't get paid.  Especially when it comes to surgery (the cost of setting up operation and recovery facilities and having a fully trained team is no small beer).  Working in any sector where you're providing people with a service they desperately need is no easy task.  I have a friend who's a vet who constantly struggles with the unhappy situation of having to chase people for payment after they've had their beloved pet put to sleep.  But if they don't get paid, they go under.

I absolutely agree with you, however, that payment arrangements should have been discussed at the outset.  To schedule a surgery and suddenly land that demand on a patient just a few days before the surgery is due to take place is outrageous.  No excuse for it.

 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Libby1

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Many old people on a fixed income who get this gangster treatment simply can't afford their surgeries and die. But nope, nothing wrong here, nothin' to see folks, system works fine!

Yes but look at all the people like me who are now well because we could not initially fit in the way health'care' works here...

I have Charcot Foot and if I'd had insurance and listened to the many inadequately experienced doctors who wanted to 'fix' the unfixable I would probably have no feet now. Amputation is the usual outcome from my condition. 

The point of power is always in the present moment. -Louise Hay

If those gangsters HAD backed me into a corner I'd probably be in a wheelchair now ( and advocating for better rights for people with disabilities and depression )

[Ollie180]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

So not entirely sure what definitions people are using, but what I find helpful is the following:

Poor = income from government programs

Middle Class = income from their labor

Wealthy = income from assets

In the U.K. you can labour as hard You like and still be distinctly ‘working class’ or poor, or on tax credits/free school meals etc!

My mum worked two jobs when I was a kid and still we lived in a council flat, received welfare for the gov, and sometimes struggled to have food on the table.

you need to be pretty affluent to be considered ‘middle class’ here (I guess it sort of translates to ‘white collar’ in the us)

[Ellener]

5 hours ago, eleanorrigby said:

My friend recently got the EBT card meant for her daughter who qualifies for the school lunch program. We met as new hires at a restaurant in our mid-20's and worked together for 10 years.  She's a single mom,  living with her daughter and mother in a one bedroom apartment. She's a good parent, and a good person.. I've told her story here before, she got a degree in chemistry and then got a waitress job to pay off her college loans. She never did get a chance to use her degree. She waited tables with, then at a grocery store almost 20 years until they started looking for ways to fire off the long term cashiers,  and now works at a dentist office as a receptionist. She took a leap at the American dream and didn't make it. 

She's not lazy, she works hard and always has but  she is still low income enough for her daughter to qualify for the school lunch program and the emergency pandemic EBT card that they sent to any parent who has a child that qualifies. 

What sort of hammer would you bring down on her @Schlumpy? 

In the midst of all the "losers' who bring no value to America, commit crime and have dozens of babies they can't feed are people like my friend  who could also  use the help.  I don't want people my friend to not be able to the help they need because we don't want to help others who need help that we don't like.

this is why HOUSTON IS Fabulous! With the background of severe Republicanism ( I threw a fit when I found out these people as a body of representatives decided to say gay people are pedophiles and should not be allowed unsupervised access to children...within months the democracy was all over it ) Address the issue- abuse of power/professionalsm/violence etc. 

I will be the 'underground railroad' for my community if necessary. It won't be necessary because everyone in my city is loving and kind.

[Ellener]

@Ollie180 if you or your family needs shelter or support I will make sure you get it.

[ThaWholigan]

1 hour ago, Ollie180 said:

In the U.K. you can labour as hard You like and still be distinctly ‘working class’ or poor, or on tax credits/free school meals etc!

My mum worked two jobs when I was a kid and still we lived in a council flat, received welfare for the gov, and sometimes struggled to have food on the table.

you need to be pretty affluent to be considered ‘middle class’ here (I guess it sort of translates to ‘white collar’ in the us)

As a fellow UK boy, this is all spot on. Been working class all my life, still am. Those of us who manage to get out are lucky!

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, Ollie180 said:

In the U.K. you can labour as hard You like and still be distinctly ‘working class’ or poor, or on tax credits/free school meals etc!

My mum worked two jobs when I was a kid and still we lived in a council flat, received welfare for the gov, and sometimes struggled to have food on the table.

you need to be pretty affluent to be considered ‘middle class’ here (I guess it sort of translates to ‘white collar’ in the us)

Yes, like I said there are plenty of combos. So “lower middle class” would be a combo of labor plus government programs. Upper middle class would be a combo of income from assets plus labor. 

[Weezy1973]

10 minutes ago, ThaWholigan said:

As a fellow UK boy, this is all spot on. Been working class all my life, still am. Those of us who manage to get out are lucky!

And this is the rule for most. If you’re born into poverty you end up being poor. If you’re born middle classed, that’s how you end up. But the key is that there is opportunity to move up, although understandably most people wouldn’t really know how, or even desire it as it’s so far out of their knowledge base. 
 

I think as a gross generalization, the key to moving up is having parents that will sacrifice so their kids can have a better life.