Wealth inequality

[schlumpy]

In my experience individual effort is always the key to getting anything accomplished.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, schlumpy said:

In my experience individual effort is always the key to getting anything accomplished.

Yes. I've put in years of individual effort to better myself, much of it helping others get where they need to be.

[pepperbird]

On 6/19/2020 at 10:03 AM, pepperbird said:

My suggestion?
Start back in school. Surely learning about topics such as how credit works, basic budgeting, home economics, that sort of thing is really important, and it's not happening at home in a lot of cases. Add to that, teach kids where their food comes from and learn some basic agricultural skills.

Also, I wish people would realize that raising minimum wage does nothing to actually help anyone. It just sounds good. I used to sit on the governing board for a large government funded not for profit. One of our mandates was to provide low cost day care for military families, and every time minimum wage went up, we would scramble to  find a way to cut costs and absorb that increase or we'd have to raise rates. A lot of the time, we couldn't do it. Our lowest paid employees rates would go up, then the other salaries also had to increase. The parents would have to pay m ore, because there was no way our funding was going to go up.

It's the same for small businesses too. Some of the little guys stand no real chance.

 The only way I can ever see real equality would be if everyone has the same basic income, and if you choose to earn more than that and get the "perks"  that's up to you. Also, getting rid of the legal entity known as "the corporation" would be a great start too.  Even though they may increase profits, automation and technology are costing jobs. Is the convenience worth it?

One final thought, at least with respect to Canada. If we ever want to dig ourselves out of the hole we're in thanks to covid-19 and our PMs weird obsession with getting a  seat on the UN security council, we are going to need to make some tough choices when it comes to international aid. For example, the ten million our government sends to China every year should stop. Pay down our national debt first-why are we giving any funds to a country we already owe an arm and a leg to? This would leave more tax revenue for social programming, health care and other areas that are sorely underfunded today. For eff sake, we're sending money overseas for "development" but we can;t even make sure our own First Nations citizens have  clean drinking water?

That's ridiculous.





 

update- he didn't get it. of the three main contenders, we got the lowest votes.
personally, I'm glad. we need to get our own house in order first.

[Weezy1973]

On 6/24/2020 at 7:45 AM, schlumpy said:

In my experience individual effort is always the key to getting anything accomplished.

And there’s usually a good deal of luck involved in success as well. And of course the distinction between working hard and hard work. Not everybody gets that.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

On 6/19/2020 at 8:28 AM, Libby1 said:

In order for people to actually have a real shot, in the current climate, at starting a business and making it work, I think small businesses need to be set free from the kind of requirements that are imposed on larger businesses.  It's not about making it harder and more bureaucratic for smaller businesses, but making it less so.  When you have complex and onerous employment laws and red tape that apply to businesses across the board, the huge corporations have an advantage over small ones because they have the resources to deal with it.  So I'm not looking for systems that make it harder and more complicated for smaller businesses to operate.  I'm looking for the exact opposite

 

On 6/19/2020 at 8:28 AM, Libby1 said:

I think the size and situation of the middle class is a good indicator.  Where you have a shrinking middle class, with most of the members of that middle class experiencing financial decline, then sooner or later it reaches a point where a lot of people who would once have been politically moderate move towards a more politically extreme position.  

I read an article recently discussing these trends as a forecast for a debt jubilee. The article was put out by a reputable American research firm. The article discussed that these trends are historically cyclical (culminating in a debt jubilee), the last debt jubilee was a little over 100 years ago, and we are approaching another debt jubilee in the near future.

I've seen some analysts discussing the potential for an upcoming debt jubilee as well. I'm pretty intrigued about it. 

Edited June 29, 2020 by HadMeOverABarrel

[lana-banana]

Student loan debt should be largely wiped out. College is 12-16 times more expensive than it was just decades ago (boomers, please don't tell me about how you worked 2 jobs and paid for college in 10 years; it's literally not possible today) and people are making a fraction of what they did after college. It's idiotic. Higher education is broken.

Medical debt should also be wiped out because the idea of "medical debt" makes me want to throw up my own eyeballs. Nuke the entire health insurance industry and start over.

Small businesses need more power in their tenant relationships. Watching small businesses close up left and right because of preposterous rent agreements is disgusting. "Landlords" as a whole are a pretty horrible group. I think if you have a viable product or service and are able to do steady business, you shouldn't spend all your time worrying about what your landlord is going to do. One thing cities should be doing now is arranging rent/mortgage relief for all small businesses, particularly restaurants.

[lana-banana]

There's a magnificent story on ProPublica (a national outlet that focuses on politics as well as hyper-local investigative news---I can't recommend them strongly enough) about wealth inequality, the collapse of the middle class, and the role of dollar stores in community breakdowns. It's called "How Dollar Stores Became Magnets for Crime and Killing" and it's a must-read. Poverty isn't about "individual choices", it's literally about where you're born and the resources you have access to.

[basil67]

On 6/18/2020 at 9:20 PM, thefooloftheyear said:

The trades are all starving for people..Its literally at crisis levels right now...Quite frankly, it bothers the hell out of me that a younger kid that can't find a job(yet) in his/her chosen field wouldn't pick up a shovel or do some other type of manual labor job(there are virtually millions out there), until they find something more appropriate...

I meant to reply to this ages ago, but it slipped my mind till it popped up right now

A lot of the stuff you're blaming the kid for is probably due to what they were exposed to growing up and the way they were raised.   I know three young men who were happy to do a day's labouring - the thing they all had in common was that their fathers were tradesmen.   Had their fathers been multi generational white collar professionals, the idea wouldn't have crossed their minds.   Adding to that, where I am there are a lot of kids who are sent to private schools.  My kids went public, so I don't really 'get it', and I was discussing it with a private school mum.  She was talking about how one of the reasons parents want private schools because they believe the kids will get better marks to get them into a better university.  I asked what support was given to young people who want to do a trade and the mum smiled and said "that's not what they send their kids to private schools for"   Now all those kids aren't going to do a day labouring.  If they do get a part time job, it's going to be retail or hospitality.   

Taking it a little further, with my blue collar background, I would think to suggest to a son that he does labouring to fill a gap.   But also, being the daughter of a trade unionist, I would also teach him to not work for less than award wages.   So if a tradesman wants a labourer, he'd be best to not try and pay $20 for a day's work.  

Quote

He answers an ad for a laborer position.. He starts working for this contractor and the boss liked his enthusiasm, so he asked the kid if he'd like to learn how to weld, as they needed specialty welders very badly..The company paid to send this kid to welders school, and fast forward a couple of years and he is now making over 100K with a new company paid truck to drive around in..He was telling me that once he receives his cert to weld natural gas pipe, he will be making another 25% more...Just bought a new house and has a baby on the way..

This is similar to the story of my grandfather.   While he didn't have a questionable background, he was unemployed doing a "work for welfare" program (building shark nets at the beach) in the days after the Great Depression ended.  A local factory owner saw that he always worked hard building the nets and offered him labouring work in his factory.  Pop did well and got promoted.  Later, he got a job as a jail warden and while there, a lot of the men were offered to be taught electrical trade.  He took up that offer, became a sparky and by the time he and Nan died, their estate was worth quite a bit.

Edited July 2, 2020 by basil67

[basil67]

29 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

All of us did something with our life because we didn't listen to people saying the crap you're saying. 

I love a win such as this.  And kudos to you and those around you who have achieved it.  And I hope that those in years behind you saw what you did and view you as evidence that it can be done.   But the statistical trends in areas such as yours are that many people don't escape generational poverty.

I haven't walked in your shoes so I don't know the dialogue which happens inside private homes, but I'd like to suggest that it's not the fault of people who acknowledge the challenges, nor the people who want extra mentoring and high student teacher ratios in school.   Rather, it's because the kids listen to their parents who are multi generational poor.   A friend of mine was teaching at a grade school in desperately poor area which has predominantly state housing.  One of the boys was admiring her hair and said "when I grow up, I will be a hairdresser and I can give you a haircut".   His little mate scoffed at him and said "nah, you're not gunna get a job".   I can only guess that a young child comes up with this type of dialogue because of what they see growing up.   

 

 

[gaius]

35 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

The kind of attitude you have, that no one can ever do anything with their life, it's quite dangerous for young people who grew up poor. You are telling them they can never amount to anything and they have no control over their life and you couldn't be any more wrong. 

My half sister unfortunately got that attitude growing up and she actually bought into it. Despite being highly intelligent with the capacity to do almost anything she sets her mind to she's currently almost 30, living at home with her mother on SSI, an easy to scam government disability program that doles out 1,000 a month. Just enough so she doesn't feel pressure to work but not enough that she'll ever escape poverty. 

The absolute worst things you can do for people who are already vulnerable to dysfunction is to drop free money in their lap, tell them they're not capable and make excuses for their bad behavior. You might be talking a big game about how compassionate you arebut in reality you're actually contributing greatly to their continuing impoverishment.

[gaius]

Just to add as well, the one thing I've noticed from working blue collar jobs and actually being around people who come from bad neighborhoods and poverty, not just reading about them in articles and studies, is that who their parents are and the DNA they inherited is generally way more responsible for their life situations than what neighborhood they grew up in or how much money they had.

My family is full of dysfunction and cretins but my father who I never met is very successful and hard working. I'm pretty sure his sperm is what kept me from falling prey to the poverty and dysfunction every other one of my half siblings has, despite growing up in the exact same environment. So thanks dad!

Edited July 2, 2020 by gaius

[thefooloftheyear]

33 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I meant to reply to this ages ago, but it slipped my mind till it popped up right now

A lot of the stuff you're blaming the kid for is probably due to what they were exposed to growing up and the way they were raised.   I know three young men who were happy to do a day's labouring - the thing they all had in common was that their fathers were tradesmen.   Had their fathers been multi generational white collar professionals, the idea wouldn't have crossed their minds.   Adding to that, where I am there are a lot of kids who are sent to private schools.  My kids went public, so I don't really 'get it', and I was discussing it with a school mum.  She was talking about how one of the reasons parents want private schools because they believe the kids will get better marks to get them into a better university.  I asked what support was given to young people who want to do a trade and the mum smiled and said "that's not what they send their kids to private schools for"   Now all those kids aren't going to do a day labouring.  If they do get a part time job, it's going to be retail or hospitality.   

 

I dunno, B....not really true in a lot of cases...

For one. my brother is a white collar guy....He has a friend that owns a construction company...They live in an affluent area of the country and they would be considered fairly  well off in most areas.,.. Anyway, his son  was instructed to work for the buddy with the construction company...As a basic grunt...On the same level as the guy at the bottom...The one schlepping all the gear to the job sites, digging the ditches, mixing the cement, etc...Another example was kind of an interesting and rewarding proposition for both me and my client and his son..

This long term client of mine came to me with an idea...To give you some background this particular client is an Ivy leaguer and a well respected attorney of considerable wealth and notoriety...He approached me and asked me if his son could work in one of my businesses...The kid was on summer break from HS....He deliberately told me to not hold back,, "give him the toughest hard work you have"..."Don't worry if he get's dirty, sweaty, whatever"...He confided in me that he wanted his son to get a feel for that aspect of work..because he felt his kid may be a little "soft" and too used to everything being handed to him...Anyway, what was supposed to be just a summer gig wound up being a year long thing, until he was ready to attend college...After it was all over the client and his wife came to me with a wonderful card and gift and were so appreciative of what we did...I believed in some ways, it actually "manned him up" which was their goal. although they never put it that way...I still communicate with the kid by text and we have become friends..

This area of the world is very wealthy and we have all kinds of private schools, etc...But some people still have some sense in their heads..Retail or hospitality is almost worthless in the long term in comparison to these other types of work.,..You use your body(which most younger kids don't anymore), you learn valuable life skills...You mix it up with the types of people that are out there in the shadows, not necessarily getting all the accolades, but performing real essential work each and every day...

I will say this much....The age cutoff is mid 50's for talented skilled tradesmen... The older ones are already dying off and the younger ones are slowing down...Most anyone with any skill has more work than they can handle and its not stopping...The reason why is no one is coming up from behind to take their place...It wont have any effect on me,. but a lot of people are going to start paying really big and waiting a very long time,  for a lot of these services very soon..unless there is some dramatic reversal..

TFY

Edited July 2, 2020 by thefooloftheyear

[basil67]

1 hour ago, thefooloftheyear said:

Retail or hospitality is almost worthless in the long term in comparison to these other types of work.,

Good on those guys for thinking outside the square with their kids.

Not to take away from what hard labour teaches, I would argue against retail or hospitality being worthless in comparison.  Take a kid who's working part time in a supermarket to earn some bucks while at uni.  They learn customer service, they learn to do what they are told, they learn to be on time, they learn that sometimes they have to clean some kid's pee from the floor, they learn problem solving, conflict resolution and they learn to deal with many types of society.  If they do it well, they will become shift supervisor.    These are not skills to be sneezed at when entering a white collar profession.

Edited July 2, 2020 by basil67

[schlumpy]

On 6/28/2020 at 10:04 PM, HadMeOverABarrel said:

 

I read an article recently discussing these trends as a forecast for a debt jubilee. The article was put out by a reputable American research firm. The article discussed that these trends are historically cyclical (culminating in a debt jubilee), the last debt jubilee was a little over 100 years ago, and we are approaching another debt jubilee in the near future.

I've seen some analysts discussing the potential for an upcoming debt jubilee as well. I'm pretty intrigued about it. 

Thank you for that heads up. I had not come across the term Debt Jubilee although it's right there in the history books.

I'm going to start reading up on off-shore accounts.

Edited July 2, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed link to political web site.

[Weezy1973]

I think the issue is the thought that all it takes is hard work to succeed. Although successful people are indeed likely to work hard, there are plenty of people who work hard and aren’t successful. It takes a degree of luck and knowledge, often the result of the family / environment one happens to be born into, to achieve success. 

What happens if social programs aren’t put in place is you get a class system. The rich stay rich, and the poor stay poor. And that was the case for most of history. 
 

Not that there aren’t exceptions, but for the most part, poor people learn how to be poor. 

[lana-banana]

17 hours ago, enigma32 said:

You are telling them they can never amount to anything and they have no control over their life and you couldn't be any more wrong. 

You aren't proof of anything. No one is saying that people can't amount to anything! People are saying that systemic problems make individual success less likely, not that it's impossible.

You are essentially saying that the existence of pro sports players means that everyone can succeed by playing sports. It's ridiculous.

If everything was equal, if it was all a matter of "desire" or "willpower", then we would see equal numbers of people from all backgrounds represented in politics, law, medicine, whatever. We don't. Not even close. Zip codes are correlated to lifetime earnings, homeownership, even physical health. Why would that be the case if everything is equal and we all have the same opportunities?

Edited July 2, 2020 by lana-banana

[Emilie Jolie]

3 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

I think the issue is the thought that all it takes is hard work to succeed

This, and the fact our value system is so f'ed up that we have assigned the most arbitrary, shallow meaning to 'hard work' and 'success' and basically exclusively link them with financial status or fame, neither of which offer a particularly healthy lens in which to view the world (in my opinion).

And regardless of hard work and success, all things being equal, we should all be afforded the right to a decent standard of living that includes being able to feed, clothe, shelter ourselves and protect our health as a basic minimum.

[amaysngrace]

 

On 6/19/2020 at 9:25 AM, lana-banana said:

 We would rather let people die of insulin rationing than cut the Pentagon's budget. It's not that we can't do these things, we just won't.

Then you should see this as a step in the right direction.  It’s not free but it’s much more affordable. 

https://www.cms.gov/newsroom/press-releases/president-trump-announces-lower-out-pocket-insulin-costs-medicares-seniors

 

[lana-banana]

32 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

 

Then you should see this as a step in the right direction.  It’s not free but it’s much more affordable. 

https://www.cms.gov/newsroom/press-releases/president-trump-announces-lower-out-pocket-insulin-costs-medicares-seniors

 

It's a step in the right direction inasmuch as skipping dessert once is a step towards weight loss. Insulin needs to be free or borderline free for everyone, everywhere.

[pepperbird]

On 6/26/2020 at 2:36 PM, Weezy1973 said:

And there’s usually a good deal of luck involved in success as well. And of course the distinction between working hard and hard work. Not everybody gets that.

Maybe it's just because that was never the case for me and mine that I doubt "luck" has anything to do with it . I worked my behind off for everything I have. Unless you are in the privileged elite, that's true for most.

[Weezy1973]

1 minute ago, pepperbird said:

Maybe it's just because that was never the case for me and mine that I doubt "luck" has anything to do with it . I worked my behind off for everything I have. Unless you are in the privileged elite, that's true for most.

Not to diminish your accomplishments, but I don’t think many actually understand how much luck plays a role. What country were you born into? Is it a “wealthy” nation?  What type of family life did you have? Are you white? What’s your IQ? Any chronic diseases? ADHD? Mental health problems? All your senses intact? And the list goes on and on of things that are beyond your control, but definitely impact your life. Just based on luck.

 

 

[pepperbird]

1 hour ago, lana-banana said:

You aren't proof of anything. No one is saying that people can't amount to anything! People are saying that systemic problems make individual success less likely, not that it's impossible.

You are essentially saying that the existence of pro sports players means that everyone can succeed by playing sports. It's ridiculous.

If everything was equal, if it was all a matter of "desire" or "willpower", then we would see equal numbers of people from all backgrounds represented in politics, law, medicine, whatever. We don't. Not even close. Zip codes are correlated to lifetime earnings, homeownership, even physical health. Why would that be the case if everything is equal and we all have the same opportunities?

I would think a lot of that is also tied to ability and ( I realize this isn't going to be popular) self fulfilling prophecy. If you are always told you're going to be held back, if you're constantly told the deck is stacked against you, who would even want to try?

As someone living with a  visible disability, I was constantly told things would be hard, I'd always struggle, I might not get very far in life because there would be forces larger than me that would hold me back.  For a long time, I believed that, and because I did, things were a lot harder. I felt sorry for myself. Poor me...I don;t stand a chance.
Once I stopped listening to that sort of message, things got a whole lot better. The people who gave those sorts of messages? People who thought they were helping. They really did mean well.
 

[amaysngrace]

11 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

Insulin needs to be free or borderline free for everyone, everywhere.

Even the extremely wealthy that you said earlier that you’d like to see get taxed the hell out of?  

As it is very low income citizens follow whatever their state has in play regarding Medicaid and with all the fight for Medicaid expansion it seems many will be okay, no?  

Anyhow, trying to be on topic here, I don’t really see how everyone could come together to fight wealth inequality when most Americans wish to one day be wealthy, at least the ones with any fight in ‘em and that’s who you’d need to get out there and make noise.  

Of course I could be wrong 

 

[lana-banana]

6 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

I would think a lot of that is also tied to ability and ( I realize this isn't going to be popular) self fulfilling prophecy. If you are always told you're going to be held back, if you're constantly told the deck is stacked against you, who would even want to try?

As someone living with a  visible disability, I was constantly told things would be hard, I'd always struggle, I might not get very far in life because there would be forces larger than me that would hold me back.  For a long time, I believed that, and because I did, things were a lot harder. I felt sorry for myself. Poor me...I don;t stand a chance.
Once I stopped listening to that sort of message, things got a whole lot better. The people who gave those sorts of messages? People who thought they were helping. They really did mean well.
 

The self-fulfilling prophecy part doesn't make sense because nobody is driving around poor communities telling them they're all useless and won't amount to anything. (I have never heard anyone talk like that except on this thread, where people seem to think that is the point I'm making.) Did anyone actually read the ProPublica article? It's not about "messages", it's about people literally not having a safe place to find food.

If these things are tied to natural ability, then why is it that children from families over a certain income are statistically all but guaranteed life success and high future earnings no matter what they do? Is the idea that rich people are naturally more able and talented than poor people? If this is all a matter of natural ability, then why are parental education levels, neighborhood safety, and number of childhood moves correlated to a child's likelihood of obtaining a four-year degree? 

[lana-banana]

Just now, amaysngrace said:

Even the extremely wealthy that you said earlier that you’d like to see get taxed the hell out of?  

Yes, of course. Everyone should be entitled to free health care. Extremely wealthy people should pay more in taxes so everyone, themselves included, can have free insulin.