Wealth inequality

[pepperbird]

1 minute ago, Weezy1973 said:

Not to diminish your accomplishments, but I don’t think many actually understand how much luck plays a role. What country were you born into? Is it a “wealthy” nation?  What type of family life did you have? Are you white? What’s your IQ? Any chronic diseases? ADHD? Mental health problems? All your senses intact? And the list goes on and on of things that are beyond your control, but definitely impact your life. Just based on luck.

 

=

I don't know what my racial background is. and I don't want to. I don't know much about my biological parents, except my mother was raped by either her older brother or father. Lucky me, I found that out last year when I went looking for biological family for health reasons.

My family being privileged? My adoptive parents parent's both lost everything during the depression, and never really got over it. My father's father was subway driver, and after another "jumper", he developed severe PTSD and depression which wasn't recognized for what it was and he took his own life after killing his wife. My dad found them several days later, and it messed him up. It was all over the news, and afterwards, he and my mom had to go and clean up the mess. It was really bad.

My parents? My mom was a nurse and worked her way through school. When she graduated, she worked to put my dad through university. While he was in school, he worked as everything from being a trash collector to working on airplanes with the air force reserves. There was no such thing as easy to access student loans back then. You wnated to go to school? you worked your way through.

Chronic diseases?  I have scleroderma, sjogren's syndrome and lymphoma. I'm also autistic and hearing impaired, so I DO know what it's like to struggle. I have three children, two are autistic and one has also been hospitalized due to depression. My spouse is living with combat related PTSD.  My "middle kid" has an autoimmune disease that  doesn't even have a name. It makes her hands tremor and she is in extreme pain a lot of the time. Other than IV does of immune globulin, there no real treatment for her. No one knows her prognosis or how much time she has left.

So it seems that some of us who you see as being "privileged" maybe aren't quite as well off as you might think. Look beneath the surface and see the individual.

 

[pepperbird]

2 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

The self-fulfilling prophecy part doesn't make sense because nobody is driving around poor communities telling them they're all useless and won't amount to anything. (I have never heard anyone talk like that except on this thread, where people seem to think that is the point I'm making.) Did anyone actually read the ProPublica article? It's not about "messages", it's about people literally not having a safe place to find food.

If these things are tied to natural ability, then why is it that children from families over a certain income are statistically all but guaranteed life success and high future earnings no matter what they do? Is the idea that rich people are naturally more able and talented than poor people? If this is all a matter of natural ability, then why are parental education levels, neighborhood safety, and number of childhood moves correlated to a child's likelihood of obtaining a four-year degree? 

that's not what I said at all. What I said was if people are constantly telling you ave no chance, you begin to think there's no point in even trying.

[amaysngrace]

Just now, lana-banana said:

Yes, of course. Everyone should be entitled to free health care. Extremely wealthy people should pay more in taxes so everyone, themselves included, can have free insulin.

It won’t be free, nothing is free.  

Not even air considering how many people are hooked up to a machine currently.  

But I don’t know if I believe having medical needs is the number one contributing factor to living in poverty in America unless addiction falls under that.  Then maybe. 

[lana-banana]

Just now, pepperbird said:

that's not what I said at all. What I said was if people are constantly telling you ave no chance, you begin to think there's no point in even trying.

I am certainly not telling anyone they have no chance, either. Nobody is saying that! I don't know why anyone thinks that's happening.

FWIW, "privilege" does not mean your life is easy. White privilege specifically means that your skin color isn't the reason why your life is hard. The concept of intersectionality recognizes how different facets of your identity (ability status, ethnic background, gender, sexual identity, etc) overlap and create complex pictures for everyone. But that's a discussion for another thread.

[lana-banana]

1 minute ago, amaysngrace said:

It won’t be free, nothing is free.  

Not even air considering how many people are hooked up to a machine currently.  

But I don’t know if I believe having medical needs is the number one contributing factor to living in poverty in America unless addiction falls under that.  Then maybe. 

It could be a dollar. It could be ten dollars. It could certainly be paid for by taxes if we wanted it to; the inventor of insulin thought it would be a crime against humanity to charge money for it. Other countries have decided insulin should absolutely be free or just a few dollars for anyone who needs it. It's not free in America because we've simply decided it shouldn't be, not that it can't.

One of the leading factors contributing to poverty in America is where you live, period. Your zip code is strongly correlated to future success. Home instability (e.g. whether you can afford rent/mortgage), lack of parental educational attainment, and access to health care are other major factors.

[Weezy1973]

23 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

My parents? My mom was a nurse and worked her way through school. When she graduated, she worked to put my dad through university. While he was in school, he worked as everything from being a trash collector to working on airplanes with the air force reserves. There was no such thing as easy to access student loans back then. You wnated to go to school? you worked your way through.

So it seems that some of us who you see as being "privileged" maybe aren't quite as well off as you might think. Look beneath the surface and see the individual.

 

So the example set by your parents was to work hard, and sacrifice. They were both university educated. That sounds pretty lucky to me.

 

Imagine if your parents were drug addicts who didn’t work. And that was the example set for you. Or if they told you repeatedly you were worthless or a burden to them. Or if you were abused. 
 

Again, not trying to diminish your accomplishments, sounds like you have a lot on your plate. But acknowledging that part of our success is due to luck, and being grateful for that leads to a happier life. 

[basil67]

51 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

Even the extremely wealthy that you said earlier that you’d like to see get taxed the hell out of?  

Why not ask for something which works well in other countries?  It works here in Australia.   OK, not exactly free....but certainly very affordable.

Insulin is included in a raft of essential medicines which are subsidised by the government.  Health insurers have been removed from the equation.  The poor, disabled and all old people get their meds for about $6.50 per prescription for any of the meds which fall into the category of essential.   Those who don't fall into that category pay about $15 per prescription.  Yes, the wealthy get subsidised meds too, but they pay a lot of tax, so why not be included. 

[pepperbird]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

So the example set by your parents was to work hard, and sacrifice. They were both university educated. That sounds pretty lucky to me.

 

Imagine if your parents were drug addicts who didn’t work. And that was the example set for you. Or if they told you repeatedly you were worthless or a burden to them. Or if you were abused. 
 

Again, not trying to diminish your accomplishments, sounds like you have a lot on your plate. But acknowledging that part of our success is due to luck, and being grateful for that leads to a happier life. 

redacted...

Edited July 2, 2020 by pepperbird

[pepperbird]

34 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Why not ask for something which works well in other countries?  It works here in Australia.   OK, not exactly free....but certainly very affordable.

Insulin is included in a raft of essential medicines which are subsidised by the government.  Health insurers have been removed from the equation.  The poor, disabled and all old people get their meds for about $6.50 per prescription for any of the meds which fall into the category of essential.   Those who don't fall into that category pay about $15 per prescription.  Yes, the wealthy get subsidised meds too, but they pay a lot of tax, so why not be included. 

Here, unless you have insurance or are below a certain income level, you pay full  price. Meds. are free if you meet that criteria.

[lana-banana]

6 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

Read your direct quote above. "Poverty isn't about "individual choices", it's literally about where you're born and the resources you have access to." Sounds to me a lot like you are telling people they can't amount to anything unless they are born with certain resources. I debunked your claim since I was born with almost 0 resources.

Boy, I'm glad you aren't a logician. Again, succeeding by being "born with almost 0 resources" (from a white male, just wow) does not "debunk" anything; it means that you, personally, succeeded in an environment that disproportionately prevents success. The vast majority of students who attend a private high school will go on to make 6 figures by their 30s; the vast majority of students who don't graduate high school will not. Why is this? Are poor children just choosing not to succeed and choosing not to try? Or is it because the vast majority of them have to deal with struggles like feeding family, dealing with health problems, working multiple jobs to pay bills that the vast majority of rich kids don't?

The existence of 1 or 2 poor kids who go on to succeed does not "debunk" or "disprove" the fact and nature of institutional poverty. If you beat stage 4 cancer that doesn't mean that everyone else who has stage 4 cancer could beat it if they wanted to, either. You are the one who's looking at millions of people struggling and telling them it's their own fault because they just don't want it enough.

[lana-banana]

13 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

How does one succeed if their environment "prevents success?" And also, my race is irrelevant.

Your race and sex are not irrelevant here. Furthermore, noting that you are a white male is by no means an attack, it's a statement of fact. Simply by virtue of being a white male you have had a much, much easier life than a Black man or a Black woman would have had in the same circumstances.

You also say: "Your approach is to tell people their life isn't their fault, because their environment "prevents success." For the last time, no. I am not, nor have I ever, "told" anyone anything about their life circumstances. I am simply saying that the existence of institutional poverty is why people from poor backgrounds are substantially less likely to be successful. The existence of one or even a few people who succeed against circumstances doesn't mean anything. If 95 out of 100 people who get a disease die, do we say that 5 survivors means that the others could have recovered equally?

Again: the VAST majority of people from poor backgrounds don't achieve even a middle-class standard of living. The VAST majority of people from wealthy or even well-to-do (i.e. college-educated parents with minimal debt) do. Are you really suggesting that the vast majority of poor people are simply...choosing to fail? Come on.

Edited July 3, 2020 by lana-banana

[lana-banana]

Sounds like we agree that poverty is a horrific systemic problem from which only a few people may be lucky and/or privileged enough to escape. Good talk!

[basil67]

2 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

The difference is you blame some system and I would prefer to show people how they can better their lives. No minds will be changed though, so I will leave it at that. I'll let people read what we each have to say and decide for themselves.

I've always been of the belief that someone (like you) who's a success in a low socio economic community will be a role model for those who are growing up behind them.  But you blew that theory out of the water when you said that when you were young, all the guys admired the drunk brawler guy.

Have times changed since then and you're now someone who today's kids look up to as an example?  How do you actively show people that they can better their lives?  You'd likely make a good mentor in such a role.

[basil67]

I'd be interested to see @enigma32

[thefooloftheyear]

One thing that's kinda hard to understand....

I get that its hard to get out of poverty, I know it all too well....There are numerous obstacles and its not for the weak of spirit or determination....

But then what about the basic stuff?  You know...things that are within the control of the individual..

Poor people waste ungodly amounts of money...They have liquor stores all over the place, a lot of them smoke cigarettes and weed, consume drugs, a lot waste a ton of money on lottery tickets and other forms of gambling..They buy cars, clothes and jewelry that they can't afford and pay ridiculous loan shark level rates on them because their credit sucks.....and most importantly, they have kids(sometimes a LOT of kids) when they cant take care of themselves....

These are all traits and habits that are completely within anyone's control....No amount of "institutional" whatever is forcing anyone to follow this path towards financial and personal failure....I know there are a lot of ridiculous half assed justifications for this crap, but anyone who has any sense wont buy it...And because most places drug test, well guess what?   now you can't get a job....

Want to get out of generational poverty?  How about start by not doing the idiotic things mentioned that are completely in your control...Then, if you really believe "the man" is holding you back, then make your own way...Its never been easier than right now...

I'll say it again...The trades are starving for labor....Mostly because whites have basically given up on it...Seize the opportunity...The Hispanic people are doing it right as we speak and so are many other immigrants....Why many black folks are standing around and letting this happen is beyond me...They don't have a language barrier, so that's not an issue like it is for the others...

TFY

[Ellener]

From Economic Policy Institute:

Black workers make up about one in nine workers overall; they represent 11.9% of the workforce. However, black workers make up about one in six of all front-line-industry workers. They are disproportionately represented in employment in grocery, convenience, and drug stores (14.2%); public transit (26.0%); trucking, warehouse, and postal service (18.2%); health care (17.5%); and child care and social services (19.3%). While, in the near term, this protects them from job loss, it exposes them to greater likelihood of contracting COVID-19 while performing their jobs.

Rho, Brown, and Fremstad, 2020

3 hours ago, thefooloftheyear said:

Why many black folks are standing around and letting this happen is beyond me.

Why is it down to 'black folks' to 'pick up the shovel' as you say it?

What about education? which has been sold ( literally, and not cheaply ) to all young Americans as the best way to achieve?

In 2019, about 27 percent of the Black population age 25 and older had attained a bachelor’s degree or higher, compared with 36 percent of the overall population. Although educational attainment among Blacks has increased over time, 44 percent of the Black population age 25 and older had a high school diploma or less in 2019, compared with 38 percent of the overall population...

Greater educational attainment is generally associated with a higher likelihood of labor force participation. In 2019, 77.9 percent of Blacks with an advanced degree (master’s, professional, or doctoral degree) and 77.4 percent of Blacks with a bachelor's degree participated in the labor force, compared with 58.9 percent of Blacks with a high school diploma and 37.3 percent of Blacks with less than a high school diploma ( US Bureau of Labor Statistics, 2019 )

This was from an article I read last year:

 

Employers are having a harder time filling blue-collar positions than professional positions that require a college education.

"Companies looking to attract enough blue-collar workers will have to continue increasing wages and, as a result, possibly experience diminished profits,” wrote Gad Levanon, chief economist for North America at the Conference Board, a global economic research organization that has studied the recent US labor shortage.

Pay people more and fill the necessary jobs, that's Market Forces isn't it?

 

 

 

[Art_Critic]

14 hours ago, lana-banana said:

Yes, of course. Everyone should be entitled to free health care. Extremely wealthy people should pay more in taxes so everyone, themselves included, can have free insulin.

I don't disagree with you about insulin being cheaper or free.. I have a Step Daughter who is a diabetic and she has trouble affording it , but I do disagree with you about only a segment of the population paying for it, money is property.. why do you think someone is entitled to someone else's property ?

IMO if insulin is to be free then all tax payers should pay for it.

I don't get the thought process that people feel that other people are entitled to others personal property.. unless it's about getting someone else to pay for it rather than themselves.

 

 

[lana-banana]

16 minutes ago, Art_Critic said:

money is property.. why do you think someone is entitled to someone else's property

Because taxes exist and should be used for a society's benefit. If you believe taxes shouldn't exist, there's not much for us to talk about.

[Art_Critic]

22 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

Because taxes exist and should be used for a society's benefit. If you believe taxes shouldn't exist, there's not much for us to talk about.

But you are saying take their property not mine, how is that right or even fair ?

Why not give your paycheck to free insulin ? because they have more money/property ? so you get to determine how they live, how much money they spend, for all you know you have more money than a rich person does.. so why shouldn't you pay for it in higher taxes..

So they should adjust their lifestyle for higher taxes but you or me don't have to ?.. doesn't sound right

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Art_Critic

[Art_Critic]

 

24 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

Because taxes exist and should be used for a society's benefit. If you believe taxes shouldn't exist, there's not much for us to talk about.

That is a twisting it around, I never said taxes shouldn't exist.. I said money is property.. you have it too.. why shouldn't you have to give up your property as well as they have to give it up ?

Fairness

 

 

[lana-banana]

48 minutes ago, Art_Critic said:

 

That is a twisting it around, I never said taxes shouldn't exist.. I said money is property.. you have it too.. why shouldn't you have to give up your property as well as they have to give it up ?

Fairness

 

 

...they should? Everyone with the ability to pay taxes should indeed pay taxes, myself included? I don't understand what argument you think I'm making. I agree it would be much more fair if the very wealthy paid more.

Edited July 3, 2020 by lana-banana

[pepperbird]

16 hours ago, lana-banana said:

I am certainly not telling anyone they have no chance, either. Nobody is saying that! I don't know why anyone thinks that's happening.

FWIW, "privilege" does not mean your life is easy. White privilege specifically means that your skin color isn't the reason why your life is hard. The concept of intersectionality recognizes how different facets of your identity (ability status, ethnic background, gender, sexual identity, etc) overlap and create complex pictures for everyone. But that's a discussion for another thread.

 There are many forms of privilege, and as this thread is about wealth inequality, then surely any source of inequality should be on the table...or is this discussion  to be solely limited to one area?

[Art_Critic]

7 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

 I agree it would be much more fair if the very wealthy paid more.

That is going against the very definition of fair..

I think everybody should pay more, that is the very definition of fair..

[pepperbird]

1 hour ago, lana-banana said:

Because taxes exist and should be used for a society's benefit. If you believe taxes shouldn't exist, there's not much for us to talk about.

I agree with you 100 percent.
One way government can actually make a difference right away would be to start doing some deep dive auditing to find areas where funds are being wasted and put them to better use.

I spent a lot of time on the board of a government funded not for profit, and every fiscal year, we had to do a deep dive audit to get our funding. It was done  by an external auditor, and the results were always available to the public to review. No one ever asked to sit down and see the line by line details, but they did want to see the overall picture of how their tax dollars were being spent. It helped keep us accountable.

I know the government's a huge behemoth and like any bureaucracy, I expect there's lots of waste. Finding that an using those funds in a better way won't solve everything, but it could be a bit of a start without having to elevate everyone's tax bill. 
win-win, no?

[lana-banana]

4 minutes ago, Art_Critic said:

That is going against the very definition of fair..

I think everybody should pay more, that is the very definition of fair..

No, it isn't. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a lot closer to the "very definition" of fairness. The people who have and consume more resources should give more than those who can't and don't.