Love Bombing and Push Pull - Update, How do I Cope?

[CaliforniaGirl]

Disclaimer: there's cynicism to follow.  So I could be really, really wrong or jaded or something.

Here's my take...

What immediately popped out was your mentioning how he then seems to be "holding back." I think you're romanticizing this and he's helping. He's not holding back from finally taking you in his arms and riding off into the sunset with you (and leaving his wife and I guess kids? Should have read more thoroughly - in tatters, never to really full trust any husband or dad again). That's the game, from what I understand. Make it seem mysterious and romantic and keep the side piece, whether a guy or a girl (women def. do this too), dangling all the time, thinking, "He's soooo close this time to just 'giving in' to his 'true feelings' for me, I can just feel it."

I mean, he never does...well, maybe with words once in a while, if he senses you're pulling away to leave his family alone and to start an actual life of your own where you can really be happy.

Yeah, I KNOW how cynical that sounds. I do...but there are a lot of posts on here about this sort of thing. And see the thing is...if he really loved you more than he loves her, if he really wanted you more than he wants his home life, if she really were awful and you really were like nobody he'd ever known before or whatever it is he whispers to you...

...then he wouldn't be there.

He'd be with you.

He's not.

Honey...just go.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

7 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Haha, ok. You are still incorrect. I will say this a leave it because you've veered her thread off course by being upset with my post then attempting to personally attack me.

Children as young as 4 have been diagnosed as narcissists,  so how much environmental influence can they have had.

 

 

Why are you running away? It's avoidance. When the tables turn inward on you, it's uncomfortable. And that's what you're trying to avoid altogether. You're trying to get a 'fix' by pointing out flaws of someone you perceive to be similar to one of the persons you blame for destroying your marriage, and thus your previously happy life (that was interrupted by your xWS affair).

I'll explain the 'fix':

All human behavior is driven by either 1) pleasure seeking, or 2) pain avoidance. Pain avoidance is the stronger of the two. Addictions, affairs, dysfunctional relationship patterns are all about pain avoidance. They are cyclical--feel pain> act out> pain is numbed temporarily> pain returns> REPEAT TO INFINITY. Guess what other behavior is pain avoidance?!? BLAMING AND SHAMING OTHERS! Yep, when we point the finger at someone else, we temporarily alleviate our own (often subconscious) inner turmoil. We tell ourselves "They are bad. I am good." What's really happening is a projection of our own inner shame onto them. You're not going to see it without a LOT of therapy and self-introspection.

DKT3, I'm really trying to give you a gift here even though you may not see it as such. All this blaming and shaming helps no-one (except yourself temporarily as you get your 'fix,' but even then you're really doing yourself a disservice just like anyone else who engages in any avoidance behavior). I hope you will reflect on this so you can enjoy a better quality of life (without your energy being consumed by anger). As I read our interaction to my therapist this afternoon, even she commented about how angry you are.

If you won't do it for yourself, do it for other people in your life. I think you have kids?? I guarantee, if you do this work, you'll see how you are blaming and shaming them, too, thereby undermining their own self-worth.

Even if you won't do any work at all, would you please stop blaming and shaming people here? People posting here, especially those who are raw and emotional, are vulnerable. They know something is not right within themselves. That's why they are here. Kicking someone when they are down does not help them be better. Rather, you're just discouraging their efforts to seek a better way, and encouraging them to dysfunctional behaviors (like affairs) they are trying to grow out of.

EDITED TO ADD: Stop running and face your fears. It's time. 

OP, I apologize if I thread-jacked.

Edited May 11, 2020 by HadMeOverABarrel

[SS2855]

8 hours ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

Why are you running away? It's avoidance. When the tables turn inward on you, it's uncomfortable. And that's what you're trying to avoid altogether. You're trying to get a 'fix' by pointing out flaws of someone you perceive to be similar to one of the persons you blame for destroying your marriage, and thus your previously happy life (that was interrupted by your xWS affair).

I'll explain the 'fix':

All human behavior is driven by either 1) pleasure seeking, or 2) pain avoidance. Pain avoidance is the stronger of the two. Addictions, affairs, dysfunctional relationship patterns are all about pain avoidance. They are cyclical--feel pain> act out> pain is numbed temporarily> pain returns> REPEAT TO INFINITY. Guess what other behavior is pain avoidance?!? BLAMING AND SHAMING OTHERS! Yep, when we point the finger at someone else, we temporarily alleviate our own (often subconscious) inner turmoil. We tell ourselves "They are bad. I am good." What's really happening is a projection of our own inner shame onto them. You're not going to see it without a LOT of therapy and self-introspection.

DKT3, I'm really trying to give you a gift here even though you may not see it as such. All this blaming and shaming helps no-one (except yourself temporarily as you get your 'fix,' but even then you're really doing yourself a disservice just like anyone else who engages in any avoidance behavior). I hope you will reflect on this so you can enjoy a better quality of life (without your energy being consumed by anger). As I read our interaction to my therapist this afternoon, even she commented about how angry you are.

If you won't do it for yourself, do it for other people in your life. I think you have kids?? I guarantee, if you do this work, you'll see how you are blaming and shaming them, too, thereby undermining their own self-worth.

Even if you won't do any work at all, would you please stop blaming and shaming people here? People posting here, especially those who are raw and emotional, are vulnerable. They know something is not right within themselves. That's why they are here. Kicking someone when they are down does not help them be better. Rather, you're just discouraging their efforts to seek a better way, and encouraging them to dysfunctional behaviors (like affairs) they are trying to grow out of.

EDITED TO ADD: Stop running and face your fears. It's time. 

OP, I apologize if I thread-jacked.

I sensed the complete angst and anger from @DKT3 and knowing the little I know of psychology it was very clear some unresolved issues. I can only imagine if I were BS I’d also likely have a strong disdain for someone like me, but to your point @HadMeOverABarrel ppl like me, while I deserve the harsh reality, I came here exactly as a person that is clearly not ok with my situation and thus looking for somewhere to be honest with myself and the hope that those who may have been there can offer guidance and at the very least support. 

[SS2855]

8 hours ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

Why are you running away? It's avoidance. When the tables turn inward on you, it's uncomfortable. And that's what you're trying to avoid altogether. You're trying to get a 'fix' by pointing out flaws of someone you perceive to be similar to one of the persons you blame for destroying your marriage, and thus your previously happy life (that was interrupted by your xWS affair).

I'll explain the 'fix':

All human behavior is driven by either 1) pleasure seeking, or 2) pain avoidance. Pain avoidance is the stronger of the two. Addictions, affairs, dysfunctional relationship patterns are all about pain avoidance. They are cyclical--feel pain> act out> pain is numbed temporarily> pain returns> REPEAT TO INFINITY. Guess what other behavior is pain avoidance?!? BLAMING AND SHAMING OTHERS! Yep, when we point the finger at someone else, we temporarily alleviate our own (often subconscious) inner turmoil. We tell ourselves "They are bad. I am good." What's really happening is a projection of our own inner shame onto them. You're not going to see it without a LOT of therapy and self-introspection.

DKT3, I'm really trying to give you a gift here even though you may not see it as such. All this blaming and shaming helps no-one (except yourself temporarily as you get your 'fix,' but even then you're really doing yourself a disservice just like anyone else who engages in any avoidance behavior). I hope you will reflect on this so you can enjoy a better quality of life (without your energy being consumed by anger). As I read our interaction to my therapist this afternoon, even she commented about how angry you are.

If you won't do it for yourself, do it for other people in your life. I think you have kids?? I guarantee, if you do this work, you'll see how you are blaming and shaming them, too, thereby undermining their own self-worth.

Even if you won't do any work at all, would you please stop blaming and shaming people here? People posting here, especially those who are raw and emotional, are vulnerable. They know something is not right within themselves. That's why they are here. Kicking someone when they are down does not help them be better. Rather, you're just discouraging their efforts to seek a better way, and encouraging them to dysfunctional behaviors (like affairs) they are trying to grow out of.

EDITED TO ADD: Stop running and face your fears. It's time. 

OP, I apologize if I thread-jacked.

Truer words never spoken: “Addictions, affairs, dysfunctional relationship patterns are all about pain avoidance. They are cyclical--feel pain> act out> pain is numbed temporarily> pain returns> REPEAT TO INFINITY.” It’s quite a cycle and I find myself feeling this not by the day but by the MINUTE. Times where I’m so distraught and down, and then a simple loving text paragraph comes through and It’s like I just received an injection of my drug of choice that manages to “tide me over” until the insecurity and loneliness seep in, and there I am once again looking for my next hit. I know I’ve exhausted the topic. I’m hoping day by day as I try to dig deeper inside I will get the courage to walk away from both men and spend some time working on my self.

[DKT3]

11 minutes ago, SS2855 said:

I sensed the complete angst and anger from @DKT3 and knowing the little I know of psychology it was very clear some unresolved issues. I can only imagine if I were BS I’d also likely have a strong disdain for someone like me, but to your point @HadMeOverABarrel ppl like me, while I deserve the harsh reality, I came here exactly as a person that is clearly not ok with my situation and thus looking for somewhere to be honest with myself and the hope that those who may have been there can offer guidance and at the very least support. 

I have no anger, my wifes affair was over a decade ago,  we were divorced spent years apart started dating and remarried.  I've been through infidelity and we've come out stronger and healthier than ever. We got there by being honest. Raw unedited honesty. I've admitted and owned my part in our marriages derailment,  my wife owned and accepted her affair was separate from the issues in the marriage. 

I'm a stoic man, my emotions are controlled and I dont fall for posts like that. Her intentions are less then pure, i believe she was trying to get under my skin..it failed.

My posting is harsh,  but not intentionally cruel.  The only way through this is honest reflection and holding yourself accountable for ALL your actions.  Your husband could be horrible, your marriage too. Yet you chose this path. You choose an unavailable man and you yourself are an unavailable woman.  Anything that happens after that is on you. No matter what he say, promises  or does. 

I believe you will get through this. I've seen women years ahead of you yet so far behind.

[lostandconfused21]

Your story is so close to mine in almost every way...I feel like I could have written it. Him and I work very closely together as well and there is no chance of either of us getting another job. Sometimes I feel like there is no way to end this. My MM does the same...pulls back and I think okay it’s over...then he comes back strong. He has even said he knows it’s not fair but he doesn’t want me to be with anyone else. Thanks for sharing your story. 

[pepperbird]

On 5/12/2020 at 5:12 AM, SS2855 said:

Truer words never spoken: “Addictions, affairs, dysfunctional relationship patterns are all about pain avoidance. They are cyclical--feel pain> act out> pain is numbed temporarily> pain returns> REPEAT TO INFINITY.” It’s quite a cycle and I find myself feeling this not by the day but by the MINUTE. Times where I’m so distraught and down, and then a simple loving text paragraph comes through and It’s like I just received an injection of my drug of choice that manages to “tide me over” until the insecurity and loneliness seep in, and there I am once again looking for my next hit. I know I’ve exhausted the topic. I’m hoping day by day as I try to dig deeper inside I will get the courage to walk away from both men and spend some time working on my self.

it almost sounds like you're describing those people you hear about sitting at the casino, gambling away their last dollar because this time, it might be the winner.
It almost never is, and even if it wins a jackpot, is it worth spending $1000 dollars to win ten?

Edited May 19, 2020 by pepperbird

[pepperbird]

On 5/13/2020 at 11:04 PM, MC75 said:

Your story is so close to mine in almost every way...I feel like I could have written it. Him and I work very closely together as well and there is no chance of either of us getting another job. Sometimes I feel like there is no way to end this. My MM does the same...pulls back and I think okay it’s over...then he comes back strong. He has even said he knows it’s not fair but he doesn’t want me to be with anyone else. Thanks for sharing your story. 

That's an old trick. Love bombing, being overly kind, considerate, whatever. Get the recipient hooked.
It goes like this ( I'm using a guy as an example, but women do it too)

- he's kind and sweet , love bombing.you feel you're so connected!

-he senses you're falling for him, and zing! he pulls back

-you? "what's changed? what did I do? " . you don't know, so you try harder and either that doesn't work or you start to see him for who he is.

-he senses you're detaching, and he dials the affection back up so you're hooked again and he can go back to being lazy and not trying so hard

-wash, rinse, repeat-each time, you'll feel a little bit worse

It's not unique to affairs, but it sure happens a lot in them. the whole goal is to keep you hooked while he extends as little effort as possible to make that happen

 

[SS2855]

@pepperbird it makes total sense and I guess I can’t wrap my head around how he can have these literal outburst moments of “I’m crazy about you!!! I can’t imagine being without you and I miss you so much!!!” and I feel it’s so sincere and believe it is. But then a few days follow and it just feels like minimal attention and as a result makes me feel like I’m drowning in quick sand. Example just this week! Monday laid it on THICK with the “missing you and waiting patiently to be with you” and then it’s like a couple days of just back to normal- never ignoring but almost as if he didn’t just profess his undying and tormented love for me. I’ll talk to him and his mood seems great and taking about work and funny things and meanwhile I’m left to feel so blank and empty. I guess I understand the psychology of it but I do believe him when he lays it on- I feel it the way he expresses himself I don’t think is some master plan to keep me hooked. He’s VERY pragmatic so is it just easier for him or is he able to just put it in a box and move forward like “ah well what are ya gonna do!”. Clearly so unhealthy all around but I truly can’t make sense of it. 

[BaileyB]

10 minutes ago, SS2855 said:

I guess I can’t wrap my head around how he can have these literal outburst moments of “I’m crazy about you!!! I can’t imagine being without you and I miss you so much!!!” but then a few days follow and it just feels like minimal attention 

He, like you, gets a hit of dopamine ever time he send a text and you respond in kind. He’s enjoying the reinforcement, just as much as you are... So, when he needs a little boost, he shoots you an over-the-top email. It is returned to him in kind. 

But, he has other things going on in his life. He has a relationship, children, work... when it’s convenient for him to reach out to you, he does, when he is otherwise engaged/happy in his life, he doesn’t feel so inclined. 

And to a certain degree, he is absolutely keeping you hooked. He has to reach out and offer a few encouraging words every now and again, if he wants to keep you involved in the affair. The intermittent reinforcement keeps you off balance, waiting on the edge of your seat, wondering when you will hear from him again... waiting like a desperate woman, lest you drown in quicksand alone...

Edited May 22, 2020 by BaileyB

[SS2855]

@BaileyB THIS. You’re right. And I’ve realized that 100% of my happiness I have put on this man alone and nothing else. I have loving children, a very fulfilling career and great friends but my focus in life has become 100% HIM. On the days of adoration and love bombing it’s like I can go about my day in this odd blissful bubble, and on days that are “normal” or when it’s just casual convo or not the heavy “I need you!” I’m like a sad woman dredging through life, albeit with the constant reminder of a husband I resent that lays on the couch 90% of his time. I know if I were someone reading this I’d be like “what is she doing?!?” I reached out to start therapy again. I’m just so tired...I feel the anxiety in my head and in my body. How did I end up here.

[SS2855]

One other thing... I just saw this video on YouTube about Intermittent Reinforcement (by Teal Swan). Wow...I’ve never listened to something that so incredibly accurately described my AP relationship. It’s not a good thing of course but I had no idea. This answered so much. @HadMeOverABarrel i believe it’s the exact point you were trying to make to me several weeks back. It just leaves me to ask though... what is the reinforcer getting out of it? In my case I don’t think it’s intentional though nevertheless it’s accurate. 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

The best answer I can give you in this moment is putting yourself first, getting really good at "self-care," and making sure your needs are met before meeting  others' needs. Do a very honest inventory with yourself about what you need. Then see how you can meet those needs without relying on another person. Next, for those you need from someone else, negotiate meeting their needs when they meet yours. If you've been in a pattern of doing for them while they don't reciprocate, you need to communicate clearly to them what you need from them before you give more of yourself to them. Then, hold firm to that boundary until you get what you need. Be prepared to walk away if they refuse to come your way or compromise. Be sure to differentiate between promise and performance. I've fallen for the ol' "I'll do that for you first chance I get," then I resume giving based on that promise which they never fulfill. That's how rug-sweeping works. If you remain aware, you'll have a better chance of holding your boundaries to ensure your needs get met. Be prepared to be met with significant resistance. Change is difficult for most people, and so they react with psychological resistance. It will manifest in all sorts of behaviors designed to get you to back down. But when you can spot it, you got it! So stay firm on your position and take care of you first!

Edited May 22, 2020 by HadMeOverABarrel

[Luna66star]

I see what is keeping you hooked here is the intermittent reinforcement, a powerful manipulation tool.  Everyone is susceptible until you know what is happening.  

I got stuck in this arrangement for 2 years until I researched the topic online.  Through sheer willpower, I didn't respond anymore to the crumbs.  I saw relationship with MM as a complete dead end, despite his words of affirmation.  They were empty and devoid of action.

After several months of MM popping up here and there showing heroic deeds or  bringing flowers and/or candies, he eventually stopped trying.  It's the only thing that worked for me to get him out of my life.  I still think of him sometimes and wonder how he's doing as I cared deeply for this man.  However I do not ever reach out and also avoid places we used to visit together. 

I learned to valye myself more and set higher standards for the kind of relationship that meets my needs.   

I wish this for you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[carhill]

On 5/22/2020 at 12:58 PM, SS2855 said:

One other thing... I just saw this video on YouTube about Intermittent Reinforcement (by Teal Swan). Wow...I’ve never listened to something that so incredibly accurately described my AP relationship. It’s not a good thing of course but I had no idea. This answered so much. @HadMeOverABarrel i believe it’s the exact point you were trying to make to me several weeks back. It just leaves me to ask though... what is the reinforcer getting out of it? In my case I don’t think it’s intentional though nevertheless it’s accurate. 

Manipulation is often part of human relations, nothing particularly unique to affairs. It's a classic tactic of takers in life, give as little as possible  and sell the sizzle to collect the profit. Very few of us make it through life without doing it at some point, at some level, just like very few, actually none, of us make it through life without lying. It's all part of being human.

The reinforcer gets attention; think of it as relationship/interaction currency. They collect it while giving as little as possible to maximize profit. The worst are the narcs. They're black holes of collecting attention. The human doesn't matter to them at all. Others have varying levels of conscience/morality and define their boundaries for themselves. Like I opined prior, accept the real. The guy is who he is. All associations in life outside of incarceration/slavery are voluntary. Even with those one can choose, death is a choice. Romantic stuff is fun and satisfying but there are billions on the planet to enjoy it with, ask any narc. They know.

[SS2855]

Me again. I’ve been posting for almost two years buried in an affair that is controlling every moment of my being. In the last two years I’ve struggled mostly with push/pull and hot/cold behavior in the A. I am a MW with MM for almost two years. Both colleagues, struggling separately in our respective marriages. I’m in the process of separation from a very dysfunctional and toxic relationship.  MM dealing with his own issues that we haven’t talked about in detail. We communicate most every day and since lockdown we’ve seemed to have grown closer (who knows maybe even easier since we’re both no longer distracted from our careers which involved heavy travel, together.) We grew very close as colleagues and then... well this. He has always been really hot and not cold but lukewarm. He will have these moments of explosive adorations followed by what I notice as a very slight but obvious pull away. About a week ago almost to the day he blew my phone up one evening, telling me he is “lost without me”, “hates the separation” , “can’t wait to be with me” and “I LOVE you and am IN LOVE with you” and can’t figure out “what to do”. Mind you I have never asked him to leave for me- I don’t believe he would or why/ how could I ask. He’s always been open about his feelings and almost daily reminds me of his adorations, but this was so strong. I reciprocated some and of course floated away to sleep that evening. That  was almost a week ago. The very next day on social media his spouse tagged him in a photo of them celebrating her birthday dinner. Yes I know it’s par for the course and I have ZERO right to be upset, but boy did it crush me. I felt like someone punched me in the stomach. Please don’t say “what did u expect?” because I know. Believe me. But damn it like if it wasn’t a knife to the heart. Since then- about a week- he has been somewhat distant. He says life at home has been very difficult so I’m leaving it be and giving space though he has not asked for it. I’m perplexed (and I’m sure I’m an idiot here) of how someone can profess this hardcore undying love and then snap back like a rubber band to sweet still yes, but distant. I finally asked today and he said he is struggling at home. Is he a sociopath or truly has just been able to compartmentalize his feelings in such a way where he can stuff them in a drawer and take out when he’s ready. I don’t doubt he’s struggling but the chain of events has left me feeling gutted. I have not nor plan to reach out to him, but this week is the longest we’ve gone with what I consider to be minimal contact. And again so soon after what I consider a hard core drop of his feelings. I know the answers maybe - that I’m in a toxic relationship. I’m struggling though to make sense of what is going on. Am I that blinded to see he truly doesn’t care for me? I feel stupid, weak and just plain gutted. What’s wrong with me?

[HadMeOverABarrel]

One possibility is when he and wife are arguing/disagreeing, he comes to love up on you so you'll be his source of validation when she's being a meany to him. Then, they make up and you're forgotten...until the next argument. Basically you're his safe place to crash until she warms up to him again.  Only you can break the cycle of him coming to you when he feels rejected by his wife.

[SS2855]

I think you’re right @HadMeOverABarrel. I wish I could talk with you because I feel like you understand this all very well. I think I’ve fooled myself perhaps in to thinking this man loves me the way he tells me he does. I feel foolish. I need to accept that I am likely a chess piece in his twisted relationship game. I don’t want to believe it but it’s the only thing I can make sense of. Because when you profess the love the way he has I’d think even with trouble at home you wouldn’t just retract like that. It’s a long weekend and I’m praying for strength if he does not contact me that I can cope. And if he does? That I can be bluntly honest and tell him where my mind has been. It’s hard to imagine it would simply be that because of how our relationship has been over the last couple years, but it’s the only thing that makes logical sense. 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

I just wanted to add that I'm being facetious in using words such as meany (meant to portray his sense of entitlement which he justifies to himself by telling himself his wife is being unfair while he probably is not considerimg how his behavior is contributing to their conflicts; meany is a juvenile word purposely chosen to reflect what I perceive is his emotionally immature perspective).

[HadMeOverABarrel]

1 hour ago, SS2855 said:

I think you’re right @HadMeOverABarrel. I wish I could talk with you because I feel like you understand this all very well. I think I’ve fooled myself perhaps in to thinking this man loves me the way he tells me he does. I feel foolish. I need to accept that I am likely a chess piece in his twisted relationship game. I don’t want to believe it but it’s the only thing I can make sense of. Because when you profess the love the way he has I’d think even with trouble at home you wouldn’t just retract like that. It’s a long weekend and I’m praying for strength if he does not contact me that I can cope. And if he does? That I can be bluntly honest and tell him where my mind has been. It’s hard to imagine it would simply be that because of how our relationship has been over the last couple years, but it’s the only thing that makes logical sense. 

It's tough I realize. I still have my own moments when I want to see the good in my own xMM because I want to see the good in people generally. In fact, most non-personality disordered people want to see the good in others.

In the midst of a confusing situation, focus only on actions. Try to focus mostly on what your needs and boundaries are, and less on his intentions. Then, measure his actions against your needs/boundaries. This helps you accomplish two things primarily:

1) you stay centered in yourself (focusing on an internal locus of control vs. his actions as external locus of control); keeps your sanity as you will decide what's right for you rather than him dictating what you get.

2) If you choose to believe his intentions are malicious rather than ignorant/negligent, you will suffer unnecessarily more from that belief. Ultimately what drives his behavior is not important when you consider whether or not your needs are better met here or elsewhere. Your needs being met are what this whole situation boils down to. Just do the math and then follow through. Be your own advocate.

This will be painful to hear but you have to remember his wife is primary, you are secondary in this scheme. Look past the mushy gushy stuff he says (and your feelings) and review the facts. Besides an emotionally charged connection, they are legally bound together.. They share assets, relatives, friends, a home, and so forth. You and he share...emotions and sex. Regardless if he hated her guts (he doesn't), he still shares a greater portion of his life with her than with you...hence she's primary, you're secondary. That means he looks to her to meet most needs, and you get to supplement wherever he finds her lackluster or wants something different.

No doubt he loves the way you make him feel, but if he loved you the way he says would he put you through all this? Wouldn't he be more considerate of how this all affects you? He may be lacking in empathy, seeing only what feels good for him while justifying/making excuses for being dishonorable to you and wife. For example, per discussion with my xMM, he justifies cheating by saying his wife has done so many things to upset him and to me, he said he never forced my participation (but he did intentionally deceive me on many points the whole way through and manipulate me so I didn't think as straight as normal).

If you want to have a conversation with your MM, first have a 'come to Jesus' conversation with yourself. You need to decide exactly what it is you want to get out of this, at what price, what are your alternatives, and at what point you will absolutely walk away if your MM attempts to move those boundaries. You should stay very firm to those decisions. Then, the conversation you should have with him is:

• I have decided x, y, and z are what is best for me.
• I am not willing to compromise on x, y, and z no matter what.
• What are you willing to do to meet my terms?
• If you are not willing to meet my terms, or if you agree and subsequently act otherwise, the consequence will be... (e.g. I will permanently disengage until you do....)

Only you can decide what terms are best for you. I would suggest putting a chasm of distance between you two until he is physically/mentally/emotionally available to meet all your needs. This is not the time to minimize your needs or make exceptions or excuses for him. He's a grown boy and he will either accomodate you or he won't. Better you know now than to invest more of yourself into a path to nowhere.

Be fearless in your requests and don't back down if he whines or complains. That's just him trying to put you back into your "place" which clearly is not working for you or your wouldn't be posting here.

If you fail to complete the above exercise, what will happen instead will be some version of:

You: We need to discuss something. 

Him: (to himself--ut oh, I'm going to have to endure some girly babble) Sure, what's up?

You: I'm concerned about this, this, annd that.

Him: Ok as soon as I can [lame excuse], I'll address this and that. [Possibbly minimizes your needs/concerns or tells you that you are too demanding, sensitive, etc. all as a means to get you to back down and get back into your "role"]

End result: Nothing changes. You are temporarily pacified. He is back to getting what he wants. Repeat cycle.

He's got a good thing going here. He's not going to want to upset the applecart so be prepared for lots of resistance however it may show up. If he won't give you want you need (most likely outcome), you have no choice but to explore your other options and walk. Obvs there is a whole other kaboodle here which I've not discussed--that being your own H.

Edit: I meant to include a piece about remembering we are responsible for our own happiness and emotions but not others. Keep that in mind when he starts to complain about your demands or his unhappiness (like with wife). Remember he chooses everything in his life and you are not responsible for his happiness. You are responsible for yours alone. Caution about overinvesting in his happiness which sets you up to be manipulated. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by HadMeOverABarrel

[Starswillshine]

Another possible explanation... be knew his wife was going to post something, so he had to be proactive. He didnt want to anger you. He had to make sure you felt good. Also, it builds triangulation. Some women get off on knowing MM was thinking about them on a day he was "celebrating" his BW. It's a manipulation. Others, like yourself, are disgusted by the behavior. 

My ex did this as well. We had lots of celebrations, and he would go somewhere while I was getting ready so that it could be like a real date. So he said. Really, it was the time to smooze up his OW so she wouldnt get mad. In his case, his OW was volatile and he was scared she would tell me. In other cases, I'm sure that is on the back of the MM's mind, but also he doesnt want to give up his OW either. 

[BaileyB]

9 hours ago, SS2855 said:

I know the answers maybe - that I’m in a toxic relationship. I’m struggling though to make sense of what is going on. I feel stupid, weak and just plain gutted. What’s wrong with me?

It’s definitely a toxic relationship. It sounds torturous. There is nothing wrong with you, but I do hope you find a way to make a better choice for yourself someday. Best wishes. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by BaileyB

[SS2855]

On 6/19/2020 at 12:22 AM, HadMeOverABarrel said:

It's tough I realize. I still have my own moments when I want to see the good in my own xMM because I want to see the good in people generally. In fact, most non-personality disordered people want to see the good in others.

In the midst of a confusing situation, focus only on actions. Try to focus mostly on what your needs and boundaries are, and less on his intentions. Then, measure his actions against your needs/boundaries. This helps you accomplish two things primarily:

1) you stay centered in yourself (focusing on an internal locus of control vs. his actions as external locus of control); keeps your sanity as you will decide what's right for you rather than him dictating what you get.

2) If you choose to believe his intentions are malicious rather than ignorant/negligent, you will suffer unnecessarily more from that belief. Ultimately what drives his behavior is not important when you consider whether or not your needs are better met here or elsewhere. Your needs being met are what this whole situation boils down to. Just do the math and then follow through. Be your own advocate.

This will be painful to hear but you have to remember his wife is primary, you are secondary in this scheme. Look past the mushy gushy stuff he says (and your feelings) and review the facts. Besides an emotionally charged connection, they are legally bound together.. They share assets, relatives, friends, a home, and so forth. You and he share...emotions and sex. Regardless if he hated her guts (he doesn't), he still shares a greater portion of his life with her than with you...hence she's primary, you're secondary. That means he looks to her to meet most needs, and you get to supplement wherever he finds her lackluster or wants something different.

No doubt he loves the way you make him feel, but if he loved you the way he says would he put you through all this? Wouldn't he be more considerate of how this all affects you? He may be lacking in empathy, seeing only what feels good for him while justifying/making excuses for being dishonorable to you and wife. For example, per discussion with my xMM, he justifies cheating by saying his wife has done so many things to upset him and to me, he said he never forced my participation (but he did intentionally deceive me on many points the whole way through and manipulate me so I didn't think as straight as normal).

If you want to have a conversation with your MM, first have a 'come to Jesus' conversation with yourself. You need to decide exactly what it is you want to get out of this, at what price, what are your alternatives, and at what point you will absolutely walk away if your MM attempts to move those boundaries. You should stay very firm to those decisions. Then, the conversation you should have with him is:

• I have decided x, y, and z are what is best for me.
• I am not willing to compromise on x, y, and z no matter what.
• What are you willing to do to meet my terms?
• If you are not willing to meet my terms, or if you agree and subsequently act otherwise, the consequence will be... (e.g. I will permanently disengage until you do....)

Only you can decide what terms are best for you. I would suggest putting a chasm of distance between you two until he is physically/mentally/emotionally available to meet all your needs. This is not the time to minimize your needs or make exceptions or excuses for him. He's a grown boy and he will either accomodate you or he won't. Better you know now than to invest more of yourself into a path to nowhere.

Be fearless in your requests and don't back down if he whines or complains. That's just him trying to put you back into your "place" which clearly is not working for you or your wouldn't be posting here.

If you fail to complete the above exercise, what will happen instead will be some version of:

You: We need to discuss something. 

Him: (to himself--ut oh, I'm going to have to endure some girly babble) Sure, what's up?

You: I'm concerned about this, this, annd that.

Him: Ok as soon as I can [lame excuse], I'll address this and that. [Possibbly minimizes your needs/concerns or tells you that you are too demanding, sensitive, etc. all as a means to get you to back down and get back into your "role"]

End result: Nothing changes. You are temporarily pacified. He is back to getting what he wants. Repeat cycle.

He's got a good thing going here. He's not going to want to upset the applecart so be prepared for lots of resistance however it may show up. If he won't give you want you need (most likely outcome), you have no choice but to explore your other options and walk. Obvs there is a whole other kaboodle here which I've not discussed--that being your own H.

Edit: I meant to include a piece about remembering we are responsible for our own happiness and emotions but not others. Keep that in mind when he starts to complain about your demands or his unhappiness (like with wife). Remember he chooses everything in his life and you are not responsible for his happiness. You are responsible for yours alone. Caution about overinvesting in his happiness which sets you up to be manipulated. 

@HadMeOverABarrel you are so wise. And your words have so much truth to them that I cannot argue. You talk of his actions and my needs. I need consistent intimacy and closeness.  I miss it. I had the holes filled when I was seeing MM a few times a week but with quarantine it’s only been now twice in last few months though we’ve still stayed in close contact. I crave touch and deep connection- those “needs” were finally being met after 12 years of nothingness. My husband and I are still living together but divorce hasn’t yet been filed (I’ll need to as he will not) so we don’t talk to one another unless we need to. My primary relationship with husband has been missing intimacy almost from the start (I noticed this dating and ignored it- ignored that I would really NEED this).  In terms of my role with MM you are right- I am very secondary to him but mentally like all OW I want to be primary and often times forget that I am not. I feel incredibly strong for him but like my therapist has said in the past- the MM is basically providing me a sip of water as I’ve been in the desert for so long that the sip tastes like a gallon to me...when in reality it’s really just a sip. As a couple years have passed and we’re still in this dance I’m finding myself thirsty for consistency, for companionship. The loneliness as I’m spending so much more time at home is palpable. I know what I need to do. I know I need to file for divorce and keep going as I’m deserving of it all. l know I am, I’m just so scared to let go of what I have with MM. But in my heart it’s not enough. He reached out that next morning and I left some space before responding- not even to play games but just mentally exhausted. When I did he immediately responded and said  it was grueling to see my response not until hours later. He knows I’m usually available at the ready. I’m going to try for starters my best to occupy myself and keep moving forward to my goal of detachment with a new therapist. Again the answer is there- just scared but I have to believe as much as I feel I love MM there is something more for me out there even if it won’t be with him.

[SS2855]

On 6/19/2020 at 7:43 AM, BaileyB said:

It’s definitely a toxic relationship. It sounds torturous. There is nothing wrong with you, but I do hope you find a way to make a better choice for yourself someday. Best wishes. 

Thank you. I laughed to myself a little as I’ve described this and my marriage on here before and you said something like “I’d rather be single forever”. It makes sense. The marriage and the MM leave me feeling as if I have a giant black hole in my heart.

[SS2855]

On 6/19/2020 at 5:36 AM, Starswillshine said:

Another possible explanation... be knew his wife was going to post something, so he had to be proactive. He didnt want to anger you. He had to make sure you felt good. Also, it builds triangulation. Some women get off on knowing MM was thinking about them on a day he was "celebrating" his BW. It's a manipulation. Others, like yourself, are disgusted by the behavior. 

My ex did this as well. We had lots of celebrations, and he would go somewhere while I was getting ready so that it could be like a real date. So he said. Really, it was the time to smooze up his OW so she wouldnt get mad. In his case, his OW was volatile and he was scared she would tell me. In other cases, I'm sure that is on the back of the MM's mind, but also he doesnt want to give up his OW either. 

Makes sense. I know there is no right for me to be upset but it was a sock in the gut. And one which I WISH I could let him know angered me so much but again I don’t have a right do I? I know he’s married so can’t expect otherwise.