Negative reactions to academic concepts relating to society and culture

June 19, 2020

I have been studying psychosocial studies for the past three years and am about to enter into a master's degree in ethnicity and culture. This degree has completely opened my eyes to the ways in which the world operates - politically, religiously, socially, and psychologically. The degree I was on was not in any way 'militant' or trying to push any specific agenda, and was great fun to be on and to be around likeminded people.

The literature I have read over the past few years has given me answers to many questions and worries I had about the world - my own experience as a black woman, for example. I was often not able to put a name to the things I'd experienced, and this degree put a lot into perspective. It provided answers and concepts for many other things, too - the way in which narcissistic leaders operate, who they prey on. Or how groups operate, and how the psychological make up of a person in a group is influenced, for example.

Obviously, we are in a moment where race is the 'hot topic', and this is something that's debated often.

One example is, I was engaged in a conversation with someone about the singer Beyoncé Knowles, and her visual album 'Lemonade'. I have studied this album extensively as part of my thesis. It contains many interwoven references to feminism, motherhood, racial tensions, police brutality, etc. It uses distinct visual imagery such as plantation houses or traditional antebellum clothing, women standing in groups, use of color symbolism, etc. This album (and this surprised me) has countless academic papers, journals, books, even - devoted to its content.

When I bought this stuff up - in a very non-preachy way, mind you - I was dismissed and told to get off my high horse and it's "just an album". I have no benefit in speaking about this stuff, I was just trying to state that it's deeper than just an album. I'm not trying to push any agenda, I don't really have the energy.

To be honest, I enjoy talking about these things and learning about them, and being shut down is frustrating because I feel like there's so much to the world, and why not learn about it? I've seen many posts - here and on other places - that just dismiss academia, and anyone that comes forward to speak about concepts etc is just called an SJW or 'woke' as an insult.

I guess my question/discussion point is, why are so many people against academia, or people that have knowledge of social or cultural concepts and education?

June 19, 2020

Because many people have their own idea of how the world works and tend not to like to be challenged by anyone.
Especially when that person may cite papers and publications to "prove" them wrong. Papers/publications they know nothing about or papers/publications they fundamentally disagree with.
Some people will automatically switch off as soon as something controversial is discussed, as they want to avoid conflict.
Some people feel uncomfortable in the presence of "experts" so will try to dismiss or denigrate them.
Some hate the assumed superiority of academia and some feel a lot of assumed "fact" or "research" is actually politically motivated so should thus be discounted as biased.
It is common practice to shout down or shut down "the opposition" so insults are the norm.
The internet is famed for its echo chambers, everyone there "debates" with people who agree with them and they shun everyone else...

June 19, 2020

44 minutes ago, homecoming said:

I guess my question/discussion point is, why are so many people against academia, or people that have knowledge of social or cultural concepts and education?

Reverse snobbery, cultivated by populists - the cult of the 'we, the common people' thing. As though academics all live in an ivory tower with no concept of 'the real world'. It feeds off the same stereotypes as snobs do, but in reverse.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

June 19, 2020

I would be thrilled to come across a conversationalist like you! I find social studies so interesting. To me people shutting down intelligent conversations are simply out of arguments to feed the conversation to an interesting level.

June 19, 2020

It's possible you were just boring the hell out of whoever you were talking to. Whether you're an academic or not it helps to sort out the things you find interesting from the things most other people find relatable and interesting.

For example, since you're familiar with all these concepts you find the crafting of lemonade interesting, because it was probably done by someone speaking the same language as you. Someone also familiar with these concepts. But does a black woman worth 400 million dollars, born 100+ years after slavery ended, using imagery of the antebellum south really grip people on a emotional level? Do most find it relatable or go around thinking about it all day? Probably not. They probably just jam along to the song for 3 minutes then move on with their lives.

I'm no academic but I do have a lot of interests I don't talk about all that often. Not because other people don't want to learn. But because it's not really their thing. In this world where you could spend 100 lifetimes thinking, learning and still only absorb or touch upon a fraction of what's out there, what symbolism Beyonce used in her album just isn't worth a lot of people's time.

June 19, 2020

1 hour ago, gaius said:

It's possible you were just boring the hell out of whoever you were talking to. Whether you're an academic or not it helps to sort out the things you find interesting from the things most other people find relatable and interesting.

For example, since you're familiar with all these concepts you find the crafting of lemonade interesting, because it was probably done by someone speaking the same language as you. Someone also familiar with these concepts. But does a black woman worth 400 million dollars, born 100+ years after slavery ended, using imagery of the antebellum south really grip people on a emotional level? Do most find it relatable or go around thinking about it all day? Probably not. They probably just jam along to the song for 3 minutes then move on with their lives.

I'm no academic but I do have a lot of interests I don't talk about all that often. Not because other people don't want to learn. But because it's not really their thing. In this world where you could spend 100 lifetimes thinking, learning and still only absorb or touch upon a fraction of what's out there, what symbolism Beyonce used in her album just isn't worth a lot of people's time.

The conversation was about Knowles and her art, so I joined in. This isn't the only place I've noticed it - over the past few weeks while discussing race, it has come up, too.

Fair enough, but I was just using Lemonade as an example. A lot of people have found it interesting, black AND white, hence the reception I've mentioned in my OP. I didn't just bring the topic up randomly, like you, I don't engage with certain things if I know the person is unlikely to be into it. I have a friend who isn't into that stuff and I never talk about it to her, because, why would I? I don't just march up to people and start rambling on, lol.

June 19, 2020

3 hours ago, Gaeta said:

I would be thrilled to come across a conversationalist like you! I find social studies so interesting. To me people shutting down intelligent conversations are simply out of arguments to feed the conversation to an interesting level.

Haha, thanks! Something else I've noticed is that a lot of people just resort to insults. Some people like to engage and find out more, some just shut you down.

June 19, 2020

1 hour ago, gaius said:

It's possible you were just boring the hell out of whoever you were talking to. Whether you're an academic or not it helps to sort out the things you find interesting from the things most other people find relatable and interesting.

For example, since you're familiar with all these concepts you find the crafting of lemonade interesting, because it was probably done by someone speaking the same language as you. Someone also familiar with these concepts. But does a black woman worth 400 million dollars, born 100+ years after slavery ended, using imagery of the antebellum south really grip people on a emotional level? Do most find it relatable or go around thinking about it all day? Probably not. They probably just jam along to the song for 3 minutes then move on with their lives.

I'm no academic but I do have a lot of interests I don't talk about all that often. Not because other people don't want to learn. But because it's not really their thing. In this world where you could spend 100 lifetimes thinking, learning and still only absorb or touch upon a fraction of what's out there, what symbolism Beyonce used in her album just isn't worth a lot of people's time.

Just want to reiterate that it was just one example. The degree and studies I've done are way more extensive - the degree even covered mental health and psychoanalysis, globalism, migrants, and more subjects that I can't recall because it's half past 12 in the morning here. In general, the concept of academia, not just Beyonce

June 20, 2020

Fair enough @homecoming. I didn't know the full context of the conversation you were talking about. And I kind of still don't. So I took a swing.

Maybe whoever made the snide remark felt you were kind of showing off you were college educated and they weren't. Or maybe they were college educated and I'm just guessing again because I don't know the full context of the conversation.

Irregardless, there are many different reasons people get annoyed with academia but the particular reason for annoyance in this case may still lay beyond my grasp.

June 20, 2020

55 minutes ago, homecoming said:

Just want to reiterate that it was just one example. The degree and studies I've done are way more extensive - the degree even covered mental health and psychoanalysis, globalism, migrants, and more subjects that I can't recall because it's half past 12 in the morning here. In general, the concept of academia, not just Beyonce

You really don't need to justify yourself, homecoming

Intellectually curious people are interested in anything, whether they have a degree or not.

June 20, 2020

I was pretty young at the time but interested in science and a number of diverse minds made an impression and likely drove interest in both science and vision as time went by. Look up the mother of all demos and Douglas Engelbart for one obscure example of a visionary engineer and scientist who melded emerging technology with the human psyche and social interaction and networking, many things we take for granted today. He was preaching them and doing them back in the 50's and 60's. The event I'm referring to occurred in the late 60's. I first got a taste of the real thing in college in the 70's. I'm no academic, just an old blue collar machinists/designer with an engineering education, but I got Doug's and other scientists and academics visions for society and its melding with technology.

We saw some of that vision just recently, though most people don't pay attention to it, when our astronauts rode a US rocket for the first time in nearly a decade into space to dock with the ISS. Pay attention to the details, both the technology and the human. It's a fascinating journey. Mine is about over and we said farewell to one original rocketeer in our group, a Gemini/Apollo propulsion engineer, who passed away this week. It's been quite a adventure. I hope you enjoy it.

Edited June 20, 2020 by carhill

June 20, 2020

2 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

You really don't need to justify yourself, homecoming

Intellectually curious people are interested in anything, whether they have a degree or not.

Everyone finds something boring. No matter how intellectually curious you are.

I remember me and my uncle watching Hero with Jet Li, a movie big on color symbolism. My uncle loves foreign martial arts movies but he was asleep within 30 minutes for that one and I hadn't found anything so tedious since reading the Canterbury tales. Just plain awful.

June 20, 2020

There are some negative reactions because what talked about is often not based in real scientific study. For example the whole intersectional thing the fact is there are no true scientific studies to support this. The sad truth is that it's because if STEM was involved the answers found wouldn't be palatable ones that fit an agenda of indoctrinating people with intersectionality. Science could actually answer the real questions of equality because it would go beyond the surface level things the average human can see

June 20, 2020

14 hours ago, homecoming said:

I have been studying psychosocial studies for the past three years and am about to enter into a master's degree in ethnicity and culture. This degree has completely opened my eyes to the ways in which the world operates - politically, religiously, socially, and psychologically. The degree I was on was not in any way 'militant' or trying to push any specific agenda, and was great fun to be on and to be around likeminded people.

The literature I have read over the past few years has given me answers to many questions and worries I had about the world - my own experience as a black woman, for example. I was often not able to put a name to the things I'd experienced, and this degree put a lot into perspective. It provided answers and concepts for many other things, too - the way in which narcissistic leaders operate, who they prey on. Or how groups operate, and how the psychological make up of a person in a group is influenced, for example.

Obviously, we are in a moment where race is the 'hot topic', and this is something that's debated often.

One example is, I was engaged in a conversation with someone about the singer Beyoncé Knowles, and her visual album 'Lemonade'. I have studied this album extensively as part of my thesis. It contains many interwoven references to feminism, motherhood, racial tensions, police brutality, etc. It uses distinct visual imagery such as plantation houses or traditional antebellum clothing, women standing in groups, use of color symbolism, etc. This album (and this surprised me) has countless academic papers, journals, books, even - devoted to its content.

When I bought this stuff up - in a very non-preachy way, mind you - I was dismissed and told to get off my high horse and it's "just an album". I have no benefit in speaking about this stuff, I was just trying to state that it's deeper than just an album. I'm not trying to push any agenda, I don't really have the energy.

To be honest, I enjoy talking about these things and learning about them, and being shut down is frustrating because I feel like there's so much to the world, and why not learn about it? I've seen many posts - here and on other places - that just dismiss academia, and anyone that comes forward to speak about concepts etc is just called an SJW or 'woke' as an insult.

I guess my question/discussion point is, why are so many people against academia, or people that have knowledge of social or cultural concepts and education?

I want to comment on Beyonce who is one of my favorite people. She is the most beautiful singer and she is very talented but because she is black, she doesn't get as much recognition as someone like Taylor Swift or Mariah Carey. She is way more talented and better looking then both!

June 20, 2020

15 hours ago, homecoming said:

I guess my question/discussion point is, why are so many people against academia, or people that have knowledge of social or cultural concepts and education?

you answer your own question:

15 hours ago, homecoming said:

being shut down is frustrating

Everyone wants to present their version of the world and have it heard and understood!

June 20, 2020

There’s a quote that goes something like:

”My ignorance is just as valuable as your knowledge.”

This is a pretty common theme. Some people are very fragile and don’t like acknowledging that other people might know more then them about the world.

My personal favourite quote is:

”We’re all wrong about pretty much everything, pretty much all the time.”

June 20, 2020

Some folks don't believe that social issues and phenomena are worth studying. Of course, they don't mean ALL issues---for instance, if you said "I study the role of state-sponsored torture in imperial Rome", or "I study how 16th century German castles affected regional architecural trends", you might get approving nods or an "oh, interesting". Of course society and culture deserve study. When someone says they don't think Black history, women's studies, etc are important, they're just saying that they, personally, don't value those fields of inquiry. It's ridiculous and sad. If the world still exists 200 years from now, there will be millions of people with opinions on how racial bigotry, gender disparities, and new modes of communication shaped events in 2020. (I've also heard the joke "in the future, historians will be asked 'what quarter of 2020 did you specialize in?')

There is also a weird idea that only mathematics and "hard" sciences merit study. I don't know why this is the case---the whole point of the quadrivium and trivium was that the liberal arts, which include math and science, were necessary to creating a well-rounded person. And if you have spent any time with an employer today they will tell you they want more social science degrees, not fewer; everyone is clamoring for experts who can help them understand complex social problems like inequities in power, class, etc.

There was a moment in America when we panicked our students weren't learning enough math and science, but 20 years later you have overloaded computer science classes teaching the kind of programming that is largely automated today. Coding skills are useful, but you need more than coding if you don't want to be replaced by software in 5 years.

I think there's also a lot of resentment in general for academia itself, which is sad. It's got its flaws but it's no more broken than any other institution, and it's critical for the introduction and research and analysis of the new (ideas, art, medicine, etc). When a society has contempt for the people who are dedicated to learning for its own sake we're in trouble.

June 20, 2020

11 hours ago, homecoming said:

The conversation was about Knowles and her art, so I joined in. This isn't the only place I've noticed it - over the past few weeks while discussing race, it has come up, too.

Fair enough, but I was just using Lemonade as an example. A lot of people have found it interesting, black AND white, hence the reception I've mentioned in my OP. I didn't just bring the topic up randomly, like you, I don't engage with certain things if I know the person is unlikely to be into it. I have a friend who isn't into that stuff and I never talk about it to her, because, why would I? I don't just march up to people and start rambling on, lol.

I think what you're describing doesn't really have much to do with academia per se..... Since you've mentioned this is something that has happened repeatedly, while discussing race, my guess is your question is more about discussions relating to the race issue?

Maybe the people you were talking to were just uncomfortable. Since it was a casual discussion about an album, having the topic switch to racism can feel like you've been thrown into cold water. It's kinda like "why am I being dragged into a discussion about racism? This feels uncomfortable."

June 20, 2020

No one is disparaging academia. Knowing about the past is a guide to the future.

I enjoy studying Greek and Roman History.

What I don't do is insist that our military take up the sword and shield and fight naked because that's how the Greeks did it.

Right now you have academics spinning theories from yon ivory castle that they insist the current population live by.

Anyone remember the flop that was New Math? What about all the new reading programs that failed to make a dent in literacy rates?

Keep that learning at the university and schmooze with your fellow academics until you have a successful real world model that people can replicate and enhance their lives with.

Revolution and change never turns out well for the common people of which I am one.

June 20, 2020

19 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

I think there's also a lot of resentment in general for academia itself, which is sad. It's got its flaws but it's no more broken than any other institution, and it's critical for the introduction and research and analysis of the new (ideas, art, medicine, etc). When a society has contempt for the people who are dedicated to learning for its own sake we're in trouble.

Oh thats for sure! Even in academia itself which is kind of ironic. I'm not sure what OP is talking about actually relates to contempt for academia though. I do know a lot of people who have contempt for any kind of academic discussions, but more often that not this contempt is either directed towards topics they deem unnecessary (they feel like it's just a lot of hot smoke) or that make them uncomfortable.

4 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

Keep that learning at the university and schmooze with your fellow academics until you have a successful real world model that people can replicate and enhance their lives with.

The above describes it quite well. Many people feel things are not worth discussing unless it leads to real, positive change.

June 20, 2020

1 hour ago, schlumpy said:

Revolution and change never turns out well for the common people of which I am one.

Humbly suggesting civil rights leaders, not to mention the people who founded America, would disagree. But there's no better encapsulation of conservative thought than someone literally saying "change is bad".

June 20, 2020

1 hour ago, lana-banana said:

there's no better encapsulation of conservative thought than someone literally saying "change is bad".

Reactionary. I already used that word today!

June 20, 2020

54 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

Humbly suggesting civil rights leaders, not to mention the people who founded America, would disagree. But there's no better encapsulation of conservative thought than someone literally saying "change is bad".

Unbridled change is bad. It is entertaining for those who just want to watch the world burn.

June 20, 2020

"Unintended consequences" are why most in power want to resist change.
Solve problem A to find problems B, C, D and E then show up... as a result of solving problem A.

Edited June 20, 2020 by elaine567

June 20, 2020

1 hour ago, schlumpy said:

Unbridled change is bad. It is entertaining for those who just want to watch the world burn.

Isn't that what we all do every day when we watch the news from other countries, use it as entertainment?

The world isn't burning any more or less than it does any day, it's just whether or not it looks like touching on our own bit of it...

I'd say we have robustly tested our own democracy in the past few weeks, I am very proud to be an American right now.

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