thefooloftheyear Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 4 hours ago, manfrombelow said: When your woman is not getting sex from you (whether by choice or not), 100% she's getting it from somebody else. Nope... The thinking that sex is the be all and end all for everyone is not accurate...Some people(men and women) just don't put a lot of value in it...For a variety of reasons...For many people they could take it or leave it, and most in that category prefer to leave it... As for the OP, I find it hard to imagine that suddenly this ship changes course after all this time no matter what methods used to change it.....What reasons/impetus would she have to change? This thinking that now you have to threaten her(as some suggested) with leaving over it is absolutely ridiculous...You can threaten to leave someone because they are a slob and need to be more considerate, or you can threaten someone that doesn't want to go to work with a divorce, but this is something that can't be threatened ...if they don't do it of their own will and desire, then it's pointless.. Who really wants someone that has sex with you because you put a gun to their head? That's the absolute last thing I would think anyone would be happy with, even if it meant there was more sex....Both parties have to want it and desire it without being told or counseled to...IMO.. And sure, most couples aren't having the same amount of sex after being together for a long time as they had when they first met, but the desire never left...The feeling someone gives to another when in their presence should always be there...That's the key...In her case, for whatever reason, its not there...My guess is that the few times she does give you sex is more of a way to get you off her back...Id imagine that if you didn't initiate she wouldn't mind at all and it would never be brought up... There are three ways this could go at this point.... - She senses your frustration or potential to walk and gives a half assed effort to make it a priority,,,,if you are happy with that, great...I wouldn't be... -You settle in, accept that this is how its going to be and you find a way to get your itch scratched...Most just use porn and take care or themselves,. some go out and find someone else on the side or use sex workers.... -You blow it all up and leave, then go and try to find what you want... I don't say counseling is a bad idea and certainly worth a shot, but just don't see how this can make someone into something that they aren't...I wish you all the best, but its hard for me to imagine something can be made good when it was never "good"... TFY 4 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 19 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said: I don't say counseling is a bad idea and certainly worth a shot, but just don't see how this can make someone into something that they aren't... ..or make someone want something they do not want. One would not consider counselling for a partner who no longer wanted to play squash with their spouse every week, or who had lost interest in a shared hobby. Desire cannot be forced nor can it be reawakened by counselling, but if there are deeper problems or communication issues then counselling can highlight those issues and allow each to see the problem from the other's POV. If this is about being busy, being pre-occupied, being tired and feeling unappreciated, then counselling may indeed help if both take the advice on board... But if fundamentally sex means little to her then any "change" may be short lived if it occurs at all. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 43 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said: The thinking that sex is the be all and end all for everyone is not accurate...Some people(men and women) just don't put a lot of value in it...For a variety of reasons...For many people they could take it or leave it, and most in that category prefer to leave it... Exactly the idea that everyone always needs and wants sex expounded by those who always need and want sex, is erroneous. That a person who does not want sex MUST be cheating is nonsense. Yes this girl may be cheating, but as Azincourt said 14 hours ago, Azincourt said: Married, with a job, and with 2 kids? She probably doesn't even have free time to get her nails done let alone meet and sleep with another dude. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
Miss Spider Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) Kind of messed up they want her to change too via counseling. It might just be how she is. Maybe she has a biologically low sex drive which is linked to genetics. Maybe with enough discussion and will power she can pretend to be into it fort he sake of her marriage?... Different people have different libidos. My friend has a high sex drive and needs to have sex or masturbate daily.. I can go forever and just be just fine...We're just different Edited June 23, 2020 by Cookiesandough 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 18 hours ago, TheJoiner said: As for doing chores round the house to help out. I won't lie, my wife definitely does the lions share Does she work full-time? If she does, why is she "definitely doing the lion's share"? I mean, look, you'll probably never be the kind of couple that has hot hour-long sex 2 nights in a row. But it's possible that if she's less overwhelmed, you might get back to once a week like you used to. Counseling is a good suggestion too. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) I would note that people can and indeed always are changing over time. There are some permanent low-drive people, but generally to say that someone past puberty has the same level of sex drive at all points in their life is going to be false. What goes down can frequently go back up again, not for everyone perhaps, but this woman is pretty young. The point of insisting on duty sex would be a) for OP to be getting some sex and b) more importantly for her to start getting more into sex so they have "good" sex with some reasonable frequency. IF she's really a permanently low drive person, then he married that young and not quite understanding it, and he's stuck with it and either little or duty sex (or the more drastic options like leaving). OP has indicated he loves his wife, wants to stay married, and has 2 kids who would be impacted by any divorce. To me it seems like attempting to change things to improve them is the least destructive option here (him being miserable for the rest of his life counting as one form of destruction IMO). Edited June 23, 2020 by mark clemson Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 14 minutes ago, mark clemson said: The point of insisting on duty sex would be a) for OP to be getting some sex and b) more importantly for her to start getting more into sex so they have "good" sex with some reasonable frequency. Does that actually work? or just build more resentment? Yes he gets regular sex, but what is in it for her? I can think of nothing worse than to be emotionally blackmailed into having sex by a partner "insisting" I give him duty sex.... Being forced into having unwanted sex is sexual abuse. Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) Hmm. You seem to be saying insist = force. I think I agree he should stop at the line where force would be the more applicable term. I'm not suggesting OP "blackmail" his wife any more than him threatening to divorce or open the marriage over it would be. (Which could result in her suddenly being very willing to turn on the sex spigot.) You'll notice I said he should think carefully about consequences implied by insisting, with these things being the far less preferable options. I'm not suggesting he do something non-consensual. I strongly suspect that both men and women have sex to keep their partners happy all the time. If she really still won't, then he's stuck with it. What does she get out of it? IF she can't enjoy sex much, she gets a more content husband out of it who won't have simmering resentment that eventually blows up into an affair, divorce, or similar issue. IF she CAN enjoy sex, she gets to have more of it as well as the benefit I just mentioned. It's probably possible for insisting to backfire with some people, depending on how they perceive it, and/or how they feel about the marriage generally so that is an issue. So I agree this needs to be done cautiously. If you want to claim that insisting on sex is sexual abuse, then I suppose it's fair to point out that her denial of his sexual needs/sexless marriages could be considered abuse via neglect if the partner indicates it's causing them distress. So, in that case I'd say she's already been abusing him. Two wrongs don't make a right, but... Also noteworthy that IF he were to be the type to suggest divorce, since the divorce would be contingent on her willingness to have sex or not, that could be considered insisting, thus force, and thus abuse. It's reasonable to suggest she'd be emotionally distressed at the prospect of divorce (or an actual one). So it would seem this logic gets us to a point where a decision to divorce because one's unhappy in a marriage is "abuse" too??? Edited June 23, 2020 by mark clemson 1 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Insist = demand something forcefully, not accepting refusal. Which is in effect what you are suggesting, he demands duty sex and doesn't take no for an answer. That sounds abusive to me. I do not think that her not being in the mood for sex is in the same league. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) You're entitled to your opinion. If she's abusing him via neglect by almost completely denying him sex, I suppose it's only fair play that he insist on receiving some (abusive in your view) as an alternative to divorcing (also a form of abuse if we take this logic to an extreme). Perhaps the solution is that she listen to his requests for sex in the first place and stop abusing him, rather than him having to resort to abusive insistence. But that didn't happen. Oh well. Edited June 23, 2020 by mark clemson Link to post Share on other sites
preraph Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 It always amazes me the importance some men put on sex that they think it's okay to coerce partners into it. Come on. By all means, let her know what you need, but it must sound ridiculous to her that you can't just grab the lotion bottle and take care of your own needs some of the time. I mean, he said sometimes they do have good sex. People in many phases of life just take care of their own sexual needs. It doesn't mean they're necessarily even less sexual. She hasn't lost total attraction to him or they wouldn't be having any "wild" sex. She's simply not in the mood and isn't going to assume that as her responsibility and I don't blame her if that's where she is libido-wise. I think he's just as obligated to accept her pace as she is his, and it's not like there's no remedy. Every 14 year old knows that. I still would advise doing nothing and to stop the awkward "warming her up" routines because that's awkward and kind of insults her intelligence. I'd let it ride for awhile and see if she ever warms up all on her own or not, and then at least you'd know what you have there. Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 You have a fair point. I would note that some of the time does not (and should not) = all of the time to the tune of 2x/year. It might reasonably = most of the time, but that just means I'm hornier than my wife (nothing particularly unusual there). My hand does not = my wife. I think it's important we view the suggestions made here (including mine) through the lens of sanity and not reach the incorrect conclusion that I'm advising people to rape their spouses. If we're going to take the line that insisting on sex is (non-criminal) abuse, then I think it's reasonable to suggest that denying sex is (non-criminal) emotional abuse as well. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 1 minute ago, mark clemson said: If we're going to take the line that insisting on sex is (non-criminal) abuse, then I think it's reasonable to suggest that denying sex is (non-criminal) emotional abuse as well. I am not sure if it is. Me, refusing to bake you a cake is not the same as you "insisting" I bake you a cake. Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) And being upset enough over you never baking cakes for me to the point that I decide to "coerce" you into baking them by threatening divorce isn't abuse. You are free to continue to not bake them and accept a divorce. Edited June 23, 2020 by mark clemson Link to post Share on other sites
Lotsgoingon Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 I suggest he go to counseling so he can figure out how to discuss his wife's disinterest in a way that is constructive. It is possible that her lack of interest is related to be overworked ... or related to her harboring resentment that she's overwhelmed in taking care of the home and family. It's also possible that she has some pain or trauma around sex and sexuality. An older man I knew rarely had sex with his wife (even when fresh into the marriage) and didn't figure out what could possibly be going on until his wife went public 30 years into their marriage that she had been assaulted by a family member when she was a teenager. The OP doesn't need to threaten ... but I really think he and his wife need to have an honest conversation about what's going on. There might be some kinds of touch that his wife would be comfortable with--shoulder rubs, neck rubs ... hugs ... maybe kisses. I know couples who don't touch each other at all. They hang on and then there's an eruption ... lots of passive-aggressive lashing out. Lots of guilt. I still think the problem most likely is lack of attraction that the wife feels. She, like others, probably didn't know what she was missing until after they married. And she, like others, doesn't have a clue as to how to talk to her husband about the reality of "not feeling much attracted to you." She's probably shared this feeling with like one friend because of embarrassment and some guilt. I recommend counseling to get clear on how to discuss this with wife, to get clear on how to even think about this issue. Link to post Share on other sites
ExpatInItaly Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Have you clearly communicated your own unhappiness about this, OP? You say you've had talks about this, and you try to do things to keep the connection alive, which is great. However, I sense that she thinks you're fairly okay with and resigned to not having much sex since it's been that way for a long time. When you broach the subject with her, what do you say, exactly? Link to post Share on other sites
GenLondon Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 21 hours ago, mark clemson said: You have a fair point. I would note that some of the time does not (and should not) = all of the time to the tune of 2x/year. It might reasonably = most of the time, but that just means I'm hornier than my wife (nothing particularly unusual there). My hand does not = my wife. I think it's important we view the suggestions made here (including mine) through the lens of sanity and not reach the incorrect conclusion that I'm advising people to rape their spouses. If we're going to take the line that insisting on sex is (non-criminal) abuse, then I think it's reasonable to suggest that denying sex is (non-criminal) emotional abuse as well. As a woman it might surprise people that I actually agree with @mark clemson I've just recently ended a 5 year relationship, and a huge part of that was due to a lack or sex, romance and general intimacy. Masterbation is NOT a good substitute to being with your partner. I went through a long stage of not even being able to because I would cry, knowing that I had to do it because my partner refused to even entertain the idea of touching me. It's soul destroying, knocks your confidence down to the floor and it made me feel worthless and unattractive for a long time. I do see openly denying sexual intimacy in a relationship, when one party clearly knows the other wants to, for months and sometimes years as emotionally abusive. He knew exactly how it was making me feel and didn't do anything about it, didn't even try; he refused to go to the doctors or a councillor, read forums, stop using porn or do anything to try and help the situation. As for the cake analogy: over the years I would have baked him a mountain of cake, and he wouldn't have even bothered to turn the oven on for me 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 1 hour ago, GenLondon said: I do see openly denying sexual intimacy in a relationship, when one party clearly knows the other wants to, for months and sometimes years as emotionally abusive. He knew exactly how it was making me feel and didn't do anything about it, didn't even try; he refused to go to the doctors or a councillor, read forums, stop using porn or do anything to try and help the situation. But why didn't you just walk away? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 On 6/24/2020 at 11:25 AM, GenLondon said: As a woman it might surprise people that I actually agree with @mark clemson I've just recently ended a 5 year relationship, and a huge part of that was due to a lack or sex, romance and general intimacy. Masterbation is NOT a good substitute to being with your partner. I went through a long stage of not even being able to because I would cry, knowing that I had to do it because my partner refused to even entertain the idea of touching me. It's soul destroying, knocks your confidence down to the floor and it made me feel worthless and unattractive for a long time. I do see openly denying sexual intimacy in a relationship, when one party clearly knows the other wants to, for months and sometimes years as emotionally abusive. He knew exactly how it was making me feel and didn't do anything about it, didn't even try; he refused to go to the doctors or a councillor, read forums, stop using porn or do anything to try and help the situation. As for the cake analogy: over the years I would have baked him a mountain of cake, and he wouldn't have even bothered to turn the oven on for me So if he didn't want to have sex with you and you knew that, then he should have just done it anyway,, so you would be happy and your self esteem would be restored??? That's just ridiculous, IMO....Who would want to give it, and who would want to receive it, under those circumstances..? TFY 3 Link to post Share on other sites
CautiouslyOptimistic Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 On 6/23/2020 at 2:47 AM, manfrombelow said: When your woman is not getting sex from you (whether by choice or not), 100% she's getting it from somebody else. And so should you guys, if your women - for any reasons - stop giving you sex in your so-called "rELaTiOnShIp"! This is soooooo not true. It sounds to me like OP's wife just has a low sex drive. Period. And he has a normal sex drive. Period. They are mismatched and need to figure out a way to work this out so both of their needs are being met. It's not anything more nefarious than that. You are coming at this from a point of view that everyone wants sex all the time, but it's simply not true even if it's true for you (@manfrombelow) Link to post Share on other sites
basil67 Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 (edited) As your wife says that she wants to fix it, there's a great book aimed at women called Where Has My Libido Gone by Dr Rosie King. I'd recommend she reads it. Dr King has loads of ideas which could help your wife pinpoint where the underlying issues are. Edited June 26, 2020 by basil67 1 Link to post Share on other sites
GoldenR Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 On 6/24/2020 at 11:38 AM, elaine567 said: But why didn't you just walk away? Earlier you're against breaking up over it, now you're saying someone should've broken up over it. Pretty obvious with you it depends on if its M or F that's not getting it in what they should do. Male threatens to leave over it is coercion. Females should leave over it. Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 2 minutes ago, GoldenR said: Pretty obvious with you it depends on if its M or F that's not getting it in what they should do. No, it is nuanced not black and white. genLondon was not married and does not have kids, the OP has kids and he does not want to walk away. Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 13 hours ago, thefooloftheyear said: So if he didn't want to have sex with you and you knew that, then he should have just done it anyway,, so you would be happy and your self esteem would be restored??? That's just ridiculous, IMO....Who would want to give it, and who would want to receive it, under those circumstances..? TFY I'm pretty sure she was agreeing that denial of sex is (or at least felt) abusive. I suspect you're right that convincing a low sex partner to have sex will have varying levels of gratification for the deprived partner. If it's validation they want/need as much as anything else, then duty sex may not help much. However, there are people who can enjoy sex without (or with limited) validation, e.g. via a prostitute or sugar-baby. Speaking for myself, I can enjoy sex with or without validation, although I prefer with. Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 On 6/25/2020 at 1:25 AM, GenLondon said: As a woman it might surprise people that I actually agree with @mark clemson I've just recently ended a 5 year relationship, and a huge part of that was due to a lack or sex, romance and general intimacy. Masterbation is NOT a good substitute to being with your partner. I went through a long stage of not even being able to because I would cry, knowing that I had to do it because my partner refused to even entertain the idea of touching me. It's soul destroying, knocks your confidence down to the floor and it made me feel worthless and unattractive for a long time. I do see openly denying sexual intimacy in a relationship, when one party clearly knows the other wants to, for months and sometimes years as emotionally abusive. He knew exactly how it was making me feel and didn't do anything about it, didn't even try; he refused to go to the doctors or a councillor, read forums, stop using porn or do anything to try and help the situation. As for the cake analogy: over the years I would have baked him a mountain of cake, and he wouldn't have even bothered to turn the oven on for me Would you honestly have been happy if he just conceded to having duty sex with you and just laid there and thought of something/someone else while you had your way with him??? Wouldn't that have made you feel even more unattractive? I mean, I agree that a good sex life is important for a lot of people (including myself), and I agree that mark clemson isn't suggesting rape or anything heinous like that. I do however disagree with him that "duty sex" will help. IMO it will just make things worse in the long run, the solution would be to try and figure out together what caused the decline and how to fix it. The OP hasn't been back, but there have been quite a few suggestions made to him in that area that he hasn't responded to. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts