Would you consider a permanent live-out relationship?

[elaine567]

On 7/1/2020 at 3:56 PM, Emilie Jolie said:

As mentioned upthread, I was upfront with him from the beginning. I've not mislead him. Not sure what he thought was going to happen.

He thought you would change your mind.
LAT was ridiculous, it was not normal, and was never going to happen...
Now he is realising that you are serious.

[Emilie Jolie]

10 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Now he is realising that you are serious.

I see what you're saying, but I honestly hope you're wrong 😬.

That would be super patronising.

 

[elaine567]

Just now, Emilie Jolie said:

I see what you're saying, but I honestly hope you're wrong 😬.

That would be super patronising.

It is pretty common though. People get involved with others that say they never want to get married/have kids/live in the country, get a dog, move abroad etc....  yet they stick in there, "knowing" they will be able to change their minds.
"He/she can't possibly not want what I want, if  they really love me they will change their mind...
Trouble starts when they realise, changing minds was never a possibility and they are now in far too deep.

[Els]

On 7/1/2020 at 2:57 AM, Emilie Jolie said:

I don't know. I'm thinking as more and more neurodiverse people find their feet in 'mainstream' society with their needs accepted and understood, this LAT thing can take off.

I'm very much a "living together" person but I agree with this. Everyone is inherently different personality-wise, but for most of post-agricultural human history people (especially women) have been pigeonholed into the "get married, live together, have kids (with a heterosexual monogamous or polygynous partner)" societal norm for various reasons - lack of economic freedom, strict laws or societal expectations, etc. Now things are changing. I don't think the majority of people will want to LAT, but there are definitely SOME people who do. And as people get access to more freedom of choice, these people will have more freedom to express their preferences.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Elswyth

[Veronica73]

13 hours ago, Elswyth said:

I'm very much a "living together" person but I agree with this. Everyone is inherently different personality-wise, but for most of post-agricultural human history people (especially women) have been pigeonholed into the "get married, live together, have kids (with a heterosexual monogamous or polygynous partner)" societal norm for various reasons - lack of economic freedom, strict laws or societal expectations, etc. Now things are changing. I don't think the majority of people will want to LAT, but there are definitely SOME people who do. And as people get access to more freedom of choice, these people will have more freedom to express their preferences.

I agree. Also, I think it is possible that two people’s type of living situations could be so different that maybe they shouldn’t live together, but they may be wonderfully matched in a whole lot of other ways that are more important. So one person is a complete slob, and the other isn’t. But otherwise they get along wonderfully. So get a two-flat or duplex. Or one person is kind of rigid and the other isn’t. I feel like having your own spaces could kind of....temper those differences a bit.

[Emilie Jolie]

4 hours ago, Veronica73 said:

I feel like having your own spaces could kind of....temper those differences a bit.

Absolutely. I can't personally any drawback in LAT if negociated well. @Gaeta's experience is a great example of that.

[chillii]

19 hours ago, Elswyth said:

I'm very much a "living together" person but I agree with this. Everyone is inherently different personality-wise, but for most of post-agricultural human history people (especially women) have been pigeonholed into the "get married, live together, have kids (with a heterosexual monogamous or polygynous partner)" societal norm for various reasons - lack of economic freedom, strict laws or societal expectations, etc. Now things are changing. I don't think the majority of people will want to LAT, but there are definitely SOME people who do. And as people get access to more freedom of choice, these people will have more freedom to express their preferences.

 

Most women still want that , it's no pigeon hole if you ask me it's just a very natural very strong inclination , it's just what most want , well until about 40 50 anyway. Rarely have l ever met a woman that genuinely didn't . Some don't l know , l'm not sayin all , but l could count the few l've ever met on one hand over my lifetime so far.

lt would've been a dream for me before l got married meeting the right girl that just didn't care and was happy to just be ha, l wish.      Actually l wouldn't mind it one bit now either . Anyway op there's nothing wrong with what you want , just a matter of the right person wanting the same.

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by chillii

[Emilie Jolie]

18 minutes ago, chillii said:

Most women still want that , it's no pigeon hole if you ask me it's just a very natural very strong inclination , it's just what most want , well until about 40 50 anyway.

I personally think a lot of it is social conditioning for both men and women, I don't see it as a gender issue as men had the same pressures exerted on them, in a different way. I genuinely feel that if afforded the option, more people would go for it.

20 minutes ago, chillii said:

Anyway op there's nothing wrong with what you want

Thank you :). 

I know there's nothing wrong this it objectively, but I've often been made to feel like it's my issue. 

[Els]

10 hours ago, chillii said:

Most women still want that , it's no pigeon hole if you ask me it's just a very natural very strong inclination , it's just what most want , well until about 40 50 anyway. Rarely have l ever met a woman that genuinely didn't . Some don't l know , l'm not sayin all , but l could count the few l've ever met on one hand over my lifetime so far.

Eh, IMO a big part of the reason is social conditioning throughout centuries of human history. If you have no way of earning a decent income, and no reliable contraception, then of course the only sane course of action that won't result in you (and your potential kids) living on the streets is to get hitched to a decent man who will provide for you and who will take responsibility for the inevitable kids that you will have (because no contraception).

This has literally only changed less than a century ago. It took the world wars before women earning their own money was even considered a valid option, and for condoms to be available to the masses (let alone the pill). So we have thousands of years of these roles baked into our culture, and we've only had less than a century to dismantle them. Of course we're still seeing traces of it everywhere.

Give it another century or two and I suspect things will be very different.

[Emilie Jolie]

9 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

Give it another century or two and I suspect things will be very different.

100% but don't necessarily want to make it a gender thing; men too have been socially conditioned to protect, provide, work hard, 'be real men' and breed. Different sets of pressure, granted, but pressure all the same.

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[chillii]

59 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

Eh, IMO a big part of the reason is social conditioning throughout centuries of human history. If you have no way of earning a decent income, and no reliable contraception, then of course the only sane course of action that won't result in you (and your potential kids) living on the streets is to get hitched to a decent man who will provide for you and who will take responsibility for the inevitable kids that you will have (because no contraception).

This has literally only changed less than a century ago. It took the world wars before women earning their own money was even considered a valid option, and for condoms to be available to the masses (let alone the pill). So we have thousands of years of these roles baked into our culture, and we've only had less than a century to dismantle them. Of course we're still seeing traces of it everywhere.

Give it another century or two and I suspect things will be very different.

Yeah l know , but all l can go on is most women l've known over a lifetime , you can add my 6 very very well educated sisters to that too,  and nearly all of them have wanted a marriage and family or panicking later 30s.40ish if they haven't yet. lt's even all over ls, l dunno what the problem is it's perfectly natural if you ask me most men or women want to marry and have a family, just sayin. l know not all but all l can say is most l've ever known have for sure. But tbh.  l don't giva shyt what they want , only what mine want. l'd be quite happy to not getting married again tbh been there once , but 50s, it's still the same , my gf wants to get married, we thought we were preg 12 mths ago, she was over the moon ,  any others l met wanted to marry again too, what can l say.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2020 by chillii

[Els]

10 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

100% but don't necessarily want to make it a gender thing; men too have been socially conditioned to protect, provide, work hard, 'be real men' and breed. Different sets of pressure, granted, but pressure all the same.

Oh, definitely. I think historically men have had more options for life paths than women had, but social conditioning is very real for them as well.

9 hours ago, chillii said:

Yeah l know , but all l can go on is most women l've known over a lifetime , you can add my 6 very very well educated sisters to that too,  and nearly all of them have wanted a marriage and family or panicking later 30s.40ish if they haven't yet. lt's even all over ls, l dunno what the problem is it's perfectly natural if you ask me most men or women want to marry and have a family, just sayin. l know not all but all l can say is most l've ever known have for sure. But tbh.  l don't giva shyt what they want , only what mine want. l'd be quite happy to not getting married again tbh been there once , but 50s, it's still the same , my gf wants to get married, we thought we were preg 12 mths ago, she was over the moon ,  any others l met wanted to marry again too, what can l say.

Right, right. I'm not saying that they don't want it (who am I to speak for another person about what they want?), my point is that a lot of people were socially conditioned to want it. Social conditioning is INCREDIBLY powerful and, in a culture-based society like ours, can often be so strong that people think it's "nature" when it's not. For instance, a lot of men will say that they are turned on by a woman in high heels because it emphasizes the legs and hips and that's totally natural blah blah... and that may be true, but what is ALSO true is that when high heels were first invented in the 15th century, it was solely a male accessory, worn by male aristocrats and horse riders. The majority of men at that time didn't exactly find it arousing to be seeing their fellow dukes in high heels, I would imagine. We only find them to be a sexual symbol for women because we are conditioned to view it that way.

Social conditioning isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there should be more acceptance for people who choose to break out of it.

[Emilie Jolie]

17 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

Social conditioning isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there should be more acceptance for people who choose to break out of it.

I can't count the times I've said the exact same thing! We very often highly overestimate the degree of individual agency we actually have - most of our choices are pre-determined before we are even born (family, country, city, financial status,...) and the rest is a mix of childhood and social conditioning, with only a small sliver of personal input.

 

[dangerous]

I'm late to this party, but, as a mature guy, yes I would have a LTR with us living separately. 

I also have a male friend who has been in a LTR for around 12 years and they live in different houses at different ends of the city. They meet every week, maybe stay over, and they are very happy, still.

In this type of relationship, you can always move in together later, maybe when you are old, or just ready generally.

I see no problem.

[chillii]

On 7/4/2020 at 3:22 AM, Emilie Jolie said:

I see what you're saying, but I honestly hope you're wrong 😬.

That would be super patronising.

 

 

 

Noooo. lt's just hard to take serious l can just tell you from a guys point of view. Women often start of not doing this don't want that , kids marriage whatever, maybe men do it too dunno don't go out with men but l actually thought great . Yr or two later though, guess what.  Or maybe he even liked the idea himself to start but now maybe he wants more.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by chillii

[Emilie Jolie]

12 minutes ago, chillii said:

Noooo. lt's just hard to take serious l can just tell you from a guys point of view. Women often start of not doing this don't want that , kids marriage whatever, l actually thought great . yr or two later , guess what.  Maybe men do it too dunno don't go out with men.

 

Well, I was (and am) still serious about it! I don't want to have to move in with a guy full-time. I tried it for a while and did not like it.

I'm sure I could make an effort if he was more compromising but he's making it a 'my way or the highway' kind of thing. That's what's putting me off. 

And I don't know where all these men are who are ok with this living together apart arrangement thing  are - I have not met one in real life. Not one. Where are they hiding??

Edited July 13, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[Ruby Slippers]

15 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

And I don't know where all these men are who are ok with this living together apart arrangement thing - I have not met one in real life. Not one. Where are they hiding??

I have a feeling that even men more inclined to casual / emotionally distant relationships are OK with keeping the woman at arm's length, but don't like to be the ones held at arm's length. Kind of like how some are cool with treating women as casual fling material, but don't like to be treated that way themselves.

[Emilie Jolie]

19 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

I have a feeling that even men more inclined to casual / emotionally distant relationships are OK with keeping the woman at arm's length, but don't like to be the ones held at arm's length. 

I guess so.

I don't think living under the same roof as someone guarantees an emotionally close relationship, and it's not because you want 2 days a week to yourself that you are casual or emotionally distant, but I see the point you are making. To me, it's more a sensitivity thing - I am hypersensitive, and sharing a bed with someone all night every night is not enjoyable regardless of how I feel about them. I don't sleep well, I feel every move, the stubble, the extra heat, etc. I already am meeting him half-way by spending any number of nights with him.

He thinks I'm using it as an excuse because I 'want to keep him at arm's length' in every other way. We have had a million chats about it and he can't give me any specific reason as to why why he's feeling that way. He acknowledges I have his back no matter what, he knows I'm super loyal, knows I have strong feelings for him, but apparently none of this matters because I don't want to move in to his house, that he's had for ages and has no plans to move out of. 

I'm not unreasonable, and I feel like there are a number of ways he could compromise on, but he won't.

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[Ruby Slippers]

Yes, it occurred to me after I wrote the post above that you don't necessarily want emotional distance - just a certain degree of physical space.

I read somewhere that couples who sleep in separate beds are more likely to grow apart and break up. I'm guessing it has something to do with biology and bonding. There's not much you can do that's more vulnerable and trusting than lying asleep next to another person. There's something very special and intimate about it.

I've always loved sleeping with my man, but I'm definitely guaranteed a better night's sleep when I sleep alone. My last two relationships had quite a few things in common. One of them was that in the beginning when sleeping in the same bed, the man slept rather fitfully and it wrecked my sleep. In both cases, I suggested we do everything we could to improve this before giving up on it and sleeping apart, since I knew from the science and had felt myself that the bond is weakened by not sleeping together. I shared everything I know about improving quality of sleep. In each case, it was a process. A few months in with my last boyfriend, we were sleeping most nights the whole night through with no problem, usually with one of us wrapped around the other. If he got restless, instead of tossing and turning, he'd get up and go hang out in the living room for a while so he didn't wake me up, then come back to bed once he got sleepy again. 

We got along very well in many ways, but we butted heads plenty as well. I once suggested to him that probably the best solution, if we were going to live together long term, is to have a guest house behind the main house, where one of us could go if we needed space and time to ourselves.

While he wasn't entirely opposed to the idea, I got the feeling it rubbed his ego the wrong way. Like a lot of men, I think he wanted to feel that I needed and wanted him around all the time, that if I really loved him, I wouldn't need or want any kind of temporary escape route.

[Emilie Jolie]

18 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

it rubbed his ego the wrong way.

A recurring theme, it seems.

Maybe as we age, we are getting better at saying what we actually want, and we aren't fearful of rocking the boat so much. 

[dangerous]

OP, may I suggest though that you hold out for what you want: you have learnt in your life how you want your ideal relationship to look. 

Guys like me are rare (lol). I have led a rich and challenging life to arrive where I am today, and I am content in my own space, and my own self (heart and mind) but very few people are these days. 

Personally, I keep on dating, and try to enjoy each person and each experience as they are (in the moment) and one day the right person will come along. 

Best of luck OP..

[elaine567]

On 7/13/2020 at 5:22 PM, Ruby Slippers said:

Like a lot of men, I think he wanted to feel that I needed and wanted him around all the time, that if I really loved him, I wouldn't need or want any kind of temporary escape route.

I also think a lot of men are very insecure and they do not trust women a lot.
So they want HIS woman at home and in his bed...  

[chillii]

On 7/14/2020 at 1:01 AM, chillii said:

 

 

Noooo. lt's just hard to take serious l can just tell you from a guys point of view. Women often start of not doing this don't want that , kids marriage whatever, maybe men do it too dunno don't go out with men but l actually thought great . Yr or two later though, guess what.  Or maybe he even liked the idea himself to start but now maybe he wants more.

 

 

 

Yeah right , don't know , l know two haha , bout it.

l would've thought it might be pretty common though just going on forums and a lot of posts about men not ready not wanting to get serious and ra ra.

 

 

[Supernova11]

I wouldn’t do anything on a permanent basis 😁

I’m female and not actively looking to live with a partner. That said, life is just full of the unexpected. I would never go into a relationship saying “Btw, just to get this clear at the beginning, I’m never going to live with you”. What my partner would come to know about me is:

- whatever living arrangements I make, I am always going to ensure that financially I am secure and there is an easy way out

- whether I live with you or not, is about choosing the right situation for both of us at that point in our lives

- Wherever I live, there will always be a cat in the house because they are great daily reminders to live a contented life 😻 No cat, no deal x

So yeah, if the relationship is grounded enough, the live in/out situation resolves itself I think. In fact, I would be wary about dating anyone with fixed ideas about living/not living together. I think its better to judge each relationship on its individual merits and just make sure you keep looking after yourself and keep communications open.

Edited July 18, 2020 by Supernova11

[SumGuy]

On 7/13/2020 at 11:47 AM, Emilie Jolie said:

...

I'm not unreasonable, and I feel like there are a number of ways he could compromise on, but he won't.

That's the issue really in my mind.   I'm a love to live with the love of my life kind of person, but I am more than willing to compromise for the love of my life (and her me) that is kind of the deal.   All the reasons you give are practical and can be easily addressed by him with compromise...that he won't is some major WTF in my mind.   His is not the response of a centered adult.  If I was his friend I'd tell him to get his head out of his posterior, he's letting his desire for perfect (for him) destroy great for him.

Edited July 18, 2020 by SumGuy