My opening message on Bumble after she sent me an emoji opener

[CaliforniaGirl]

12 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

I'll be honest, I have a hard time understanding what you're trying to argue in your post, and I'll also note that you seem kind of heated. 

From my understanding of your post, you view all male dating advice as canned pickup formulas 

We can stop right here as ^ it is a false premise that I have already explained twice. I am afraid that this will all have to remain a mystery to you, as I don't even give my children a third chance at an exp!anation. The general rule for them is: I'm glad to explain something, but if you ask me more than twice I'm assuming either you don't understand or you don't want to. I'm surprised to be saying it to an adult now but I suppose sometimes, exchanges on the internet are unclear. You can always re-read until you understand as it is all in writing above. Otherwise, well, it is a mystery, I guess!

Edited July 7, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[basil67]

3 hours ago, max3732 said:

d she can meet up, but not play tennis. I don't know how we can do that.

Going for a gentle stroll would be an obvious answer.  Is there any reason you're not going with this option?

[basil67]

Re the argument of men being the only ones who can give other men advice on heterosexual relationships:  I think the guys writing this have lost sight that 50% of the relationship is female.  To get balanced perspective, both genders have a solid role to play in advice giving:

Men: what works for them when trying to get a girlfriend

Women:  Commentary on the things which men do which will attract or repel them.

As for the discussions about PUA advice, it's easy to spot which bits of advice come from that direction.  PUA advice views women as a job lot, not giving space to the idea that different women like different things. 

 @max3732 you know how there's advice to not contact too often or be too available?  The way this is worded can send a guy in the wrong direction.   My daughter recently went on a first date with a guy she really, really liked.  But he didn't contact often and wasn't easily available for setting up a next date, so she ditched him.  Had he made a bit more effort to have her feel desired, he would have been in like Flynn.  

[CaliforniaGirl]

33 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Re the argument of men being the only ones who can give other men advice on heterosexual relationships:  I think the guys writing this have lost sight that 50% of the relationship is female.  To get balanced perspective, both genders have a solid role to play in advice giving:

Men: what works for them when trying to get a girlfriend

Women:  Commentary on the things which men do which will attract or repel them.

As for the discussions about PUA advice, it's easy to spot which bits of advice come from that direction.  PUA advice views women as a job lot, not giving space to the idea that different women like different things. 

 @max3732 you know how there's advice to not contact too often or be too available?  The way this is worded can send a guy in the wrong direction.   My daughter recently went on a first date with a guy she really, really liked.  But he didn't contact often and wasn't easily available for setting up a next date, so she ditched him.  Had he made a bit more effort to have her feel desired, he would have been in like Flynn.  

This pretty much puts it in a nutshell...and another poster commented that Max...you need to take things from here. You can't live your dating life this way, asking every step of the way what other people would say...what other people would do....at some point you really AREN'T being you anymore. And what good is that?

You have a date. Awesome! So just go on it and have fun. Stop thinking and worrying about every single detail and aspect. You love tennis, she loves tennis, it's socially distanced...you have everything lined up, now just go on that date and have a blast! 👍

[Versacehottie]

2 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

This pretty much puts it in a nutshell...and another poster commented that Max...you need to take things from here. You can't live your dating life this way, asking every step of the way what other people would say...what other people would do....at some point you really AREN'T being you anymore. And what good is that?

You have a date. Awesome! So just go on it and have fun. Stop thinking and worrying about every single detail and aspect. You love tennis, she loves tennis, it's socially distanced...you have everything lined up, now just go on that date and have a blast! 👍

100% agreed ^^^ and this is what I've meant within this thread about being yourself at a certain point.  It can't be like a Cyrano de Bergerac type thing.  You can't keep coming back to poll us to figure out the tiniest next step and things to say specifically.  Those are the kinds of things that when you have good social skills or decent ones at least and practice those regularly with people in general and be yourself genuinely, yourself can take over from there on the small talk and smaller decisions.

and yeah this is another reason why you should have been realistic and honest (with her and yourself) about dating in the time of COVID and your comfort level being out and about.  Now you are kind of backed into a corner because of never telling her that tennis is basically the only thing you feel comfortable doing and so even though she still wants to see you, you are now between a rock and a hard place.  I'm sure you will figure it out. Good luck  

[basil67]

4 hours ago, max3732 said:

Short term is to find people that I can go on real dates with and go out with in the future. I didn't know this virus was going to last so long. Maybe we can chat on the phone or with virtual dates until then.

Any other tips?

Max, this isn't going to work.   A woman who's happy to go on a date with you isn't going to then put herself on hold waiting to see you again when virus has gone.  

[elaine567]

7 hours ago, max3732 said:

I didn't know this virus was going to last so long.

Why not? Unless a efficacious vaccine is found or the virus just dies out and disappears. Then this is going to take literally years.
As you are in a high risk group and this virus may indeed kill you or leave you seriously ill with complications then you can't just dismiss the risks like someone else of your age.
 

[poppyfields]

19 hours ago, Fresh_Start said:

I agree with @rjc149 that a tennis date is not a good idea for a first date.  It's hard to be flirty and fun as well as build romantic/sexual chemistry when you're on opposite ends of a tennis court smacking a ball back and forth at one another.  You need a more intimate setting than that for a first date -- one that opens the door to physical contact and even sex.  If you're not comfortable with that right now because of COVID-19, then you might want to postpone dating for awhile because otherwise you're hamstringing yourself into a series of platonic quasi-dates that are likely to go nowhere.  For now, just commit to the tennis date since it has already been discussed ad nauseam and is what you both agreed to then do things differently next time, starting with being more assertive and decisive.   

I very much agree with this^, well said! 

And I'm a woman. 

Max, I asked this before, but you didn't answer or at least I didn't see it. 

 While I understand your concern re covid and your desire to remain six feet apart wearing a mask, after the tennis meet/date is over, how you plan on proceeding after that?  

How do you plan on escalating things given your concern about the virus and your stance re social distancing?

Continue making tennis dates?   The covid situation may last another year or longer!   

That's the part I don't quite get.  How do you plan on escalating things into a romantic involvement if you're too fearful of getting closer than six feet and able to physically touch? 

The tennis date is fine, not my cup of tea and has a sort of friendshippy vibe imo, but okay.

But what about the second, third and fourth dates?   Have you thought that through at all?  

Edited July 7, 2020 by poppyfields

[Fresh_Start]

14 hours ago, basil67 said:

Going for a gentle stroll would be an obvious answer.  Is there any reason you're not going with this option?

She told him she injured her leg and can't do anything that requires walking.  That puts the kibosh on a stroll. 

I can't be the only one here who finds it more than a little convenient and coincidental that she just so happened to injure her leg the day before a "tennis date" after everything that we've read here.  In my opinion, she changed her mind and this is her excuse to get out of the date.  She allegedly still wants to go out, but specifically told him that she can't do anything that requires walking.  Since virtually everything requires some degree of walking and Max has made it clear to her and to us that he doesn't feel comfortable taking her to a bar, restaurant, or any other public place we would be putting our heads in the sand to ignore the likely conclusion here.  She doesn't want to go out. 

Or maybe she's a PUA and is just trying to lure him back to her place.  

For Max's sake I would love to be dead wrong about this alleged injury and say that it's just a fluke, but with all the jockeying and negotiating that went into setting this thing up, which we all advised against, I am not at all surprised by this turn of events.  If by chance I'm wrong here and the leg injury is legitimate, then this is a blessing in disguise as far as the date goes.  If he's not comfortable going on a real date and having physical contact, then he needs to pump the brakes on dating until he's comfortable.  This is common sense. 

[CaliforniaGirl]

8 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Why not? Unless a efficacious vaccine is found or the virus just dies out and disappears. Then this is going to take literally years.
As you are in a high risk group and this virus may indeed kill you or leave you seriously ill with complications then you can't just dismiss the risks like someone else of your age.
 

Why is Max in a high-risk group??? Sorry to go OT. But if so, Max...yes...you probably should Zoom or whatever your dates. I didn't realize this factor.

Or else as Basil suggested, take a stroll, distanced apart. I know that isn't the most romantic thought but if your health is in danger then you have to do what you have to do. ETA: Oh, this is hurt-leg girl? I am getting them mixed up. I don't know, Max...I think you need to let your prospective dates know ahead of time that you will have to be socially distanced for the time being. Yes, this will mean fewer dates because some women just won't want to go for that. But...it is what it is. I don't really know how you can effectively date this way, unless you run into someone who is willing to wait (or at least to socially distance for some time). It's not like that can't happen. But it will take some time, probably.

Edited July 7, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[rjc149]

44 minutes ago, Fresh_Start said:

For Max's sake I would love to be dead wrong about this alleged injury and say that it's just a fluke, but with all the jockeying and negotiating that went into setting this thing up, which we all advised against, I am not at all surprised by this turn of events. 

I was thinking the same thing. I felt pretty sure with this elaborate production of reservations, deposits, confirmations and monetary penalties, there would be some last-minute flake of some sort. 

[poppyfields]

30 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

I was thinking the same thing. I felt pretty sure with this elaborate production of reservations, deposits, confirmations and monetary penalties, there would be some last-minute flake of some sort. 

Agree.  Too much pressure for a first meet!  

 

[max3732]

7 hours ago, poppyfields said:

I very much agree with this^, well said! 

And I'm a woman. 

Max, I asked this before, but you didn't answer or at least I didn't see it. 

 While I understand your concern re covid and your desire to remain six feet apart wearing a mask, after the tennis meet/date is over, how you plan on proceeding after that?  

How do you plan on escalating things given your concern about the virus and your stance re social distancing?

Continue making tennis dates?   The covid situation may last another year or longer!   

That's the part I don't quite get.  How do you plan on escalating things into a romantic involvement if you're too fearful of getting closer than six feet and able to physically touch? 

The tennis date is fine, not my cup of tea and has a sort of friendshippy vibe imo, but okay.

But what about the second, third and fourth dates?   Have you thought that through at all?  

My thought was that since I've been quarantined for so long and things were opening back up that before too long I could meet in person and act almost like normal and get as close physically as I did before (although until the last 2 dates I didn't do much). I didn't expect a rebound or that so many people in my age group were going to get infected and be at a high risk of spreading it. Mentally I had the 4th of July as the time I'd start ordering out from restaurants and going out more. Then in the last couple weeks there's been a huge surge in my area.

2 hours ago, Fresh_Start said:

She told him she injured her leg and can't do anything that requires walking.  That puts the kibosh on a stroll. 

I can't be the only one here who finds it more than a little convenient and coincidental that she just so happened to injure her leg the day before a "tennis date" after everything that we've read here.  In my opinion, she changed her mind and this is her excuse to get out of the date.  She allegedly still wants to go out, but specifically told him that she can't do anything that requires walking.  Since virtually everything requires some degree of walking and Max has made it clear to her and to us that he doesn't feel comfortable taking her to a bar, restaurant, or any other public place we would be putting our heads in the sand to ignore the likely conclusion here.  She doesn't want to go out. 

Or maybe she's a PUA and is just trying to lure him back to her place.  

For Max's sake I would love to be dead wrong about this alleged injury and say that it's just a fluke, but with all the jockeying and negotiating that went into setting this thing up, which we all advised against, I am not at all surprised by this turn of events.  If by chance I'm wrong here and the leg injury is legitimate, then this is a blessing in disguise as far as the date goes.  If he's not comfortable going on a real date and having physical contact, then he needs to pump the brakes on dating until he's comfortable.  This is common sense. 

From what she said her injury doesn't seem to be that serious. If she wasn't interested why would she have invited me to play last week after I messaged her? Why would she have sent me a bunch of pictures and videos and been carrying on a long conversation with me. She gave me her IG and she doesn't have a tremendous amount of followers like that other one so I don't think she's an influencer.

2 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

Why is Max in a high-risk group??? Sorry to go OT. But if so, Max...yes...you probably should Zoom or whatever your dates. I didn't realize this factor.

Or else as Basil suggested, take a stroll, distanced apart. I know that isn't the most romantic thought but if your health is in danger then you have to do what you have to do. ETA: Oh, this is hurt-leg girl? I am getting them mixed up. I don't know, Max...I think you need to let your prospective dates know ahead of time that you will have to be socially distanced for the time being. Yes, this will mean fewer dates because some women just won't want to go for that. But...it is what it is. I don't really know how you can effectively date this way, unless you run into someone who is willing to wait (or at least to socially distance for some time). It's not like that can't happen. But it will take some time, probably.

I'm in a high risk group due to a medication I'm taking for a chronic condition. Without going into too much detail that condition, which first showed symptoms when I was an undergrad in college is what kept me from dating throughout college. Since then I've got it under control and haven't had any symptoms in over 10 years (knock on wood). Technically I'm not at any higher risk of getting the virus, but if I got the virus I'm at a higher risk of complications. 

I know some people have long distance relationships. You don't think it would work with virtual dates and distanced activities until things get back to normal? I was thinking about it and there's a place near me that isn't a public park, but has wide open spaces where we could walk once she (or any other date) is able to do it.

1 hour ago, rjc149 said:

This is the only useful advice anyone can give him. But you'll notice Max has posted many threads for advice on pandemic dating, so this falls on deaf ears unfortunately. 

Max, the simple reality, to repeat, is that unless you're able to sit face to face and converse, where you will be able to pull misogynist PUA moves and insidious deceit and trickery against women such as flirting, joking, being confident and playfully cocky, and escalating the interaction into physical/sexual contact, your dates will not go anywhere productive. Tennis dates, 6-foot stroll dates, Zoom dates -- it won't lead to where you want it to go. You'll more than likely put yourself in the friend zone. 

Here's another way you can look at it, though, which I think could also be useful in general -- view these dates as practice. Practice interacting with women, being comfortable in conversation with them, and being confident. Don't have expectations. And practice not having expectations. Just view these dates as practice for the game -- the game being, of course, when you can have proper dates.

Don't view mistakes and failure as a waste of time, but rather, as practice and an opportunity for growth. So yeah, go on these dates. Just don't expect them to go anywhere, because they won't. 

That's kind of how I'm looking at all of these dates. Maybe this is TMI, but before I'd look at the profile pics and read about these women and start imagining how great it would be to do all these things with them. Now I know I need experience so if it doesn't work I can chock it up to experience.

Something I can't do though is date someone where I know I have no interest in her. I tried swiping right on everyone and had a long conversation with this woman and she was telling me about her dreams with her man and how she only believes in dating 1 person at a time and how much she enjoyed talking to me and I felt like a jerk for thinking about going out with her when I had no interest. So I had to end that right away.

[poppyfields]

max, just wanted to say, getting to know you on this forum, you seem like a very genuine and lovely man.

I'm sorry about your struggles health wise and with dating.  

I truly hope things go your way, and when this covid nightmare is over, it may all be much easier. 

Continue to remain positive!  And keep us posted re Ms. Tennis Star, it all sounds good so far!

When will her leg be better?  Perhaps you could reschedule then?

[rjc149]

5 minutes ago, max3732 said:

That's kind of how I'm looking at all of these dates. Maybe this is TMI, but before I'd look at the profile pics and read about these women and start imagining how great it would be to do all these things with them. Now I know I need experience so if it doesn't work I can chock it up to experience.

It's not TMI at all. If you want to get better at something, you need to learn what being good at it looks like, and you need to practice emulating that until it's internalized and becomes a part of you, like second nature. 

If you want to be more confident and at ease around women, spend more time around women. I think that these "dates" (they're really more like meetups) are a good opportunity for a low-investment, zero-expectation interaction with a woman. 

Then you can start incorporating some witty charm (stand up comics are good material for this, and I've personally appropriated a few Oscar Wilde quotes for humorous effect), learning good conversation skills and active listening, get comfortable with light, playful flirting, playful teasing, and being just a little bit cocky (look up "cocky-funny" by David DeAngelo -- a very good foundation to build upon).

And that's it. Don't expect the date to go anywhere. Be utterly outcome-independent and unconcerned with what happens. You'll notice, women dig this (not all women -- some women love sexually penetrating their men with strap ons while chewing tobacco and listening to Slayer). The no pressure, no expectation vibe you give will put them at ease and allow them to open up to you. That's what you want to practice. 

And also, you know, get in killer shape. That will help a lot too. But do that for your own health and confidence, not because it's what women want. 

 

[max3732]

On 7/7/2020 at 2:12 PM, Fresh_Start said:

She told him she injured her leg and can't do anything that requires walking.  That puts the kibosh on a stroll. 

I can't be the only one here who finds it more than a little convenient and coincidental that she just so happened to injure her leg the day before a "tennis date" after everything that we've read here.  In my opinion, she changed her mind and this is her excuse to get out of the date.  She allegedly still wants to go out, but specifically told him that she can't do anything that requires walking.  Since virtually everything requires some degree of walking and Max has made it clear to her and to us that he doesn't feel comfortable taking her to a bar, restaurant, or any other public place we would be putting our heads in the sand to ignore the likely conclusion here.  She doesn't want to go out. 

Or maybe she's a PUA and is just trying to lure him back to her place.  

For Max's sake I would love to be dead wrong about this alleged injury and say that it's just a fluke, but with all the jockeying and negotiating that went into setting this thing up, which we all advised against, I am not at all surprised by this turn of events.  If by chance I'm wrong here and the leg injury is legitimate, then this is a blessing in disguise as far as the date goes.  If he's not comfortable going on a real date and having physical contact, then he needs to pump the brakes on dating until he's comfortable.  This is common sense. 

Another follow up...

I've been continuing to chat with both of them. The only (let's call her Amy)who said she was injured said she is already feeling better and would probably be able to play next week or if not then the following week. 

The other one (let's call her Sally) I'm having much more trouble with. She responds to my messages instantly and gave me her number. She also writes decently long texts. Yet she says she will have to "check her schedule and let me know" about playing. If she wasn't interested wouldn't she not respond so much or let me know?

For some reason I'm having a lot more trouble trying to be flirty and fun with Sally than Amy. Maybe because Amy messaged me about playing and has sent me more fun things herself, but with her I feel more free to take chances and my messages are playful. With Sally I was looking through our conversation and she basically just says "I like this, don't like that, I've been here, not there. Tomorrow I'm doing x, y, and z, etc." After she says where she's been, what she's doing or what she likes I'll ask her about it or tell her my opinion or experience with it, but I can't make the conversation fun.

With Amy she will respond with things like "you're clever, or you're cute, how funny, this is for your viewing pleasure" It's like I have 2 different personalities with the 2 different chats.

Going beyond these 2, how can I make a conversation over text more fun when the other person isn't putting anything more fun? I just feel more cautious and don't know what to say with Sally. I think that might be part of my problem in general with OLD and why I lose their interest after a few messages.

[CaliforniaGirl]

11 hours ago, max3732 said:

Another follow up...

I've been continuing to chat with both of them. The only (let's call her Amy)who said she was injured said she is already feeling better and would probably be able to play next week or if not then the following week. 

The other one (let's call her Sally) I'm having much more trouble with. She responds to my messages instantly and gave me her number. She also writes decently long texts. Yet she says she will have to "check her schedule and let me know" about playing. If she wasn't interested wouldn't she not respond so much or let me know?

For some reason I'm having a lot more trouble trying to be flirty and fun with Sally than Amy. Maybe because Amy messaged me about playing and has sent me more fun things herself, but with her I feel more free to take chances and my messages are playful. With Sally I was looking through our conversation and she basically just says "I like this, don't like that, I've been here, not there. Tomorrow I'm doing x, y, and z, etc." After she says where she's been, what she's doing or what she likes I'll ask her about it or tell her my opinion or experience with it, but I can't make the conversation fun.

With Amy she will respond with things like "you're clever, or you're cute, how funny, this is for your viewing pleasure" It's like I have 2 different personalities with the 2 different chats.

Going beyond these 2, how can I make a conversation over text more fun when the other person isn't putting anything more fun? I just feel more cautious and don't know what to say with Sally. I think that might be part of my problem in general with OLD and why I lose their interest after a few messages.

It takes two...you just aren't getting anything back from Sally. Actually, she kind of sounds self-centered and boring.

[max3732]

10 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

It takes two...you just aren't getting anything back from Sally. Actually, she kind of sounds self-centered and boring.

I'm really enjoying the chat with Amy and not with Sally. Hopefully she in person she will not be so self centered and boring. This really shows me how just being logical and polite is not enough for texting. Maybe this is good practice for me to try and take the lead in taking some more chances.

[Fresh_Start]

Max,

For the last time, you are not ready to date right now.  You're in a high risk group and you don't feel comfortable going on a real date or having physical contact with women because of COVID-19.  When you're not comfortable, it will show in your words and actions and could result in you making your date feel uncomfortable as well.  Furthermore, you will be painting yourself into a corner with any of these women because even IF you manage to somehow build attraction and chemistry with them from opposite ends of a tennis court, early in the morning, what's next?  Another tennis date?  A stroll on the beach standing more than 6 feet apart the whole time?  Rolling around the park encased in plastic bubbles? 

Everything you're doing right now is out of desperation and neediness and it shows.  You also continue to come to us for advice on every little thing that you should say and do, which clearly demonstrates that you're very insecure and don't have a clue as to how to confidently interact with women, how to be assertive, how to be decisive, or how to organically build attraction and chemistry.  Many of us have given you advice on how to improve yourself in these areas so your focus right now should be on self-improvement and minimizing your potential exposure to COVID-19 since you are worried about it so much and are in a high risk category.  This is basic logic and common sense.  Anything else will just be needlessly spinning your wheels, setting yourself up for failure, and not generating the results you're so desperate for. 

[Versacehottie]

On 7/10/2020 at 9:47 AM, max3732 said:

Another follow up...

I've been continuing to chat with both of them. The only (let's call her Amy)who said she was injured said she is already feeling better and would probably be able to play next week or if not then the following week. 

The other one (let's call her Sally) I'm having much more trouble with. She responds to my messages instantly and gave me her number. She also writes decently long texts. Yet she says she will have to "check her schedule and let me know" about playing. If she wasn't interested wouldn't she not respond so much or let me know?

For some reason I'm having a lot more trouble trying to be flirty and fun with Sally than Amy. Maybe because Amy messaged me about playing and has sent me more fun things herself, but with her I feel more free to take chances and my messages are playful. With Sally I was looking through our conversation and she basically just says "I like this, don't like that, I've been here, not there. Tomorrow I'm doing x, y, and z, etc." After she says where she's been, what she's doing or what she likes I'll ask her about it or tell her my opinion or experience with it, but I can't make the conversation fun.

With Amy she will respond with things like "you're clever, or you're cute, how funny, this is for your viewing pleasure" It's like I have 2 different personalities with the 2 different chats.

Going beyond these 2, how can I make a conversation over text more fun when the other person isn't putting anything more fun? I just feel more cautious and don't know what to say with Sally. I think that might be part of my problem in general with OLD and why I lose their interest after a few messages.

well, well, well, this is ironic.  Ok I want you to take a good look.

Bolded #1 about Sally playing or meeting up in general.   Sounds like she is absolutely putting you off.  The reasons could be various.  I would actually venture to guess because of the time in the world currently, SHE might not be into being on a date in the time of COVID, tennis or otherwise. (with tennis she could be the type who loves it but doesn't want a sweaty first date or like many have pointed out doesn't see it as a fun first date though she likes the activity in general; with COVID concerns, may not want to be on a date in a mask, which IMO is problematic, awkward AF). It's basically your same situation (in that you will have trouble expanding beyond a tennis date).  What is exactly the same is that by not being upfront about the reason it causes confusion and doubt.  And inherent boredom.  Like spinning your wheels on a road to nowhere. " If she wasn't interested" comment is one of those overly simplistic, "IF THEN" type things that people want to deduce to the one singular answer when it's more than likely either a few factors or possible not what you think.  In other words there is not necessarily a binary answer.  Which going BACK to the finagling you did over switching around time/place of tennis date with Amy is EXACTLY why you don't want to do that sh*t.  It causes confusion and you cannot control that someone promising might see it as a binary or black white thing and write you off.

Amy sounds pretty great and into you.  Win win so far.

Sally is the kind of stuff I've often said to YOU to be careful not to do.  I get the feeling you exchange facts and have trouble being playful. Bolded #2, see how with a simple thing Amy is doing a good job of making it fun, even suggestive.  it's way more exciting.  Creates momentum and traction.  You can imagine a future with a person like this because they add fun and the potential for inside jokes etc on the very simplest of things.  Things I've been saying all along that you can practice with strangers (like in line at starbucks or right here on your own threads!!) so that you don't get all tongue tied or at a loss to do it yourself first (which is absolutely what you COULD be doing with Sally to test her personality) or stuck in how to do it back to Amy, ie becoming that person SHE finds boring much like you are finding Sally boring.  Have you been playful and fun back with Amy?

Bolded #3, um, yes I would say this is probably one of your top problems.  If you are coming off flat and boring in spite of being decent looking (maybe even good looking) and successful with nice family and other things in place, I'd say the reason why you aren't getting at least a first date shot is that you are bombing the personality/boredom component.

Are you intimidated by Sally? If that's all it is (and it doesn't sound like it), stick with it FFS to get over that and assert yourself as practice even if it goes nowhere.  If you are not intimidated, then i think you have enough information and need to put yourself in the drivers seat that she doesn't interest YOU enough.  I think it will really help to take a less desperate position and write people off who don't impress YOU.   If you want to err to the safe side, I would say now is the time to take the lead with Sally completely and be more direct.  Just state the obvious (always light heartedly IMO😞 something to the effect of "I'm getting the feeling that you might not want to meet up, is it because of COVID".  Nicer and funnier than that but yeah that's the gist.  It's just honest and laying it on the table.  Then you can say you understand and happy to keep talking virtually (if you are).  I think when people have something they're hiding, like in her case, not wanting to meet up, they put up a wall that's reads as boring and flat.  Sometimes you can break the ice by being direct and vulnerable yourself.  Sometimes people are just boring, which she could be--but if you want to err on the safe side, just try that first.  Lastly, the length of the text is b*llsh*t. Some of the best texts I've ever got sum things up or move things forward with a single emoji!  

Have standards for yourself and what you want.  Don't hang in there extra if a person is not it for you. It will give you confidence.  Don't use arbitrary ways, ie text length, to prove someone is interested.  She sounds like she is going thru the OLD motions or is just a boring person--neither of which should be good enough for you.  On your own experience for how you act in dating situations, you can give her a little benefit of the doubt to try to get her to open up and if she doesn't move on from her.  Good luck

Edited July 11, 2020 by Versacehottie

[max3732]

22 hours ago, Fresh_Start said:

Max,

For the last time, you are not ready to date right now.  You're in a high risk group and you don't feel comfortable going on a real date or having physical contact with women because of COVID-19.  When you're not comfortable, it will show in your words and actions and could result in you making your date feel uncomfortable as well.  Furthermore, you will be painting yourself into a corner with any of these women because even IF you manage to somehow build attraction and chemistry with them from opposite ends of a tennis court, early in the morning, what's next?  Another tennis date?  A stroll on the beach standing more than 6 feet apart the whole time?  Rolling around the park encased in plastic bubbles? 

Everything you're doing right now is out of desperation and neediness and it shows.  You also continue to come to us for advice on every little thing that you should say and do, which clearly demonstrates that you're very insecure and don't have a clue as to how to confidently interact with women, how to be assertive, how to be decisive, or how to organically build attraction and chemistry.  Many of us have given you advice on how to improve yourself in these areas so your focus right now should be on self-improvement and minimizing your potential exposure to COVID-19 since you are worried about it so much and are in a high risk category.  This is basic logic and common sense.  Anything else will just be needlessly spinning your wheels, setting yourself up for failure, and not generating the results you're so desperate for. 

I see your point about not being ready to date now with the virus, but respectfully disagree in one respect. If I were to wait until after the threat of the virus goes away, which is anyone's guess, then I wouldn't have had any of the experiences that I've had recently. I have been working hard on myself whether I message women on dating apps or not. They are not mutually exclusive.

I agree that it makes it hard to progress to the next level if I can't get close to them, but even before the virus I'd spend hours messaging women that would go absolutely nowhere. Actually getting to the point where we could meet in person seemed like a pipe dream. 

If we connect we can do a walk in the garden, maybe kayaking, or like you said another tennis date in addition to virtual dates. Even if it goes nowhere the alternative is no female contact whatsoever.

19 hours ago, Versacehottie said:

well, well, well, this is ironic.  Ok I want you to take a good look.

Bolded #1 about Sally playing or meeting up in general.   Sounds like she is absolutely putting you off.  The reasons could be various.  I would actually venture to guess because of the time in the world currently, SHE might not be into being on a date in the time of COVID, tennis or otherwise. (with tennis she could be the type who loves it but doesn't want a sweaty first date or like many have pointed out doesn't see it as a fun first date though she likes the activity in general; with COVID concerns, may not want to be on a date in a mask, which IMO is problematic, awkward AF). It's basically your same situation (in that you will have trouble expanding beyond a tennis date).  What is exactly the same is that by not being upfront about the reason it causes confusion and doubt.  And inherent boredom.  Like spinning your wheels on a road to nowhere. " If she wasn't interested" comment is one of those overly simplistic, "IF THEN" type things that people want to deduce to the one singular answer when it's more than likely either a few factors or possible not what you think.  In other words there is not necessarily a binary answer.  Which going BACK to the finagling you did over switching around time/place of tennis date with Amy is EXACTLY why you don't want to do that sh*t.  It causes confusion and you cannot control that someone promising might see it as a binary or black white thing and write you off.

Amy sounds pretty great and into you.  Win win so far.

Sally is the kind of stuff I've often said to YOU to be careful not to do.  I get the feeling you exchange facts and have trouble being playful. Bolded #2, see how with a simple thing Amy is doing a good job of making it fun, even suggestive.  it's way more exciting.  Creates momentum and traction.  You can imagine a future with a person like this because they add fun and the potential for inside jokes etc on the very simplest of things.  Things I've been saying all along that you can practice with strangers (like in line at starbucks or right here on your own threads!!) so that you don't get all tongue tied or at a loss to do it yourself first (which is absolutely what you COULD be doing with Sally to test her personality) or stuck in how to do it back to Amy, ie becoming that person SHE finds boring much like you are finding Sally boring.  Have you been playful and fun back with Amy?

Bolded #3, um, yes I would say this is probably one of your top problems.  If you are coming off flat and boring in spite of being decent looking (maybe even good looking) and successful with nice family and other things in place, I'd say the reason why you aren't getting at least a first date shot is that you are bombing the personality/boredom component.

Are you intimidated by Sally? If that's all it is (and it doesn't sound like it), stick with it FFS to get over that and assert yourself as practice even if it goes nowhere.  If you are not intimidated, then i think you have enough information and need to put yourself in the drivers seat that she doesn't interest YOU enough.  I think it will really help to take a less desperate position and write people off who don't impress YOU.   If you want to err to the safe side, I would say now is the time to take the lead with Sally completely and be more direct.  Just state the obvious (always light heartedly IMO😞 something to the effect of "I'm getting the feeling that you might not want to meet up, is it because of COVID".  Nicer and funnier than that but yeah that's the gist.  It's just honest and laying it on the table.  Then you can say you understand and happy to keep talking virtually (if you are).  I think when people have something they're hiding, like in her case, not wanting to meet up, they put up a wall that's reads as boring and flat.  Sometimes you can break the ice by being direct and vulnerable yourself.  Sometimes people are just boring, which she could be--but if you want to err on the safe side, just try that first.  Lastly, the length of the text is b*llsh*t. Some of the best texts I've ever got sum things up or move things forward with a single emoji!  

Have standards for yourself and what you want.  Don't hang in there extra if a person is not it for you. It will give you confidence.  Don't use arbitrary ways, ie text length, to prove someone is interested.  She sounds like she is going thru the OLD motions or is just a boring person--neither of which should be good enough for you.  On your own experience for how you act in dating situations, you can give her a little benefit of the doubt to try to get her to open up and if she doesn't move on from her.  Good luck

Yes, things seem to be progressing well with Amy. I've started mentally getting ahead of myself with her and need to stay relaxed and keep it fun. I see what you mean about not coming across as boring. Looking back at her messages Amy has taken some chances with me initially and then I reciprocated. I think it's like what someone else here said. I need to show my personality and take action and if she doesn't like it then I'll move on to someone else. I need to stop playing it so safe.

This applies to speed dating as well. The last time I did it I was talking to this women I had no interest in due to demographics, but we actually had a really fun conversation and we were both laughing by the end. She asked me where I was still single and I replied that I'm actually not. I'm a polygamist and am looking for another wife. She asked how many I had and I said 6 and I didn't feel right not having 1 for every day of the week and the conversation just flowed from there. The next speed date was with someone who was really attractive and I immediately felt nervous and tight and just had a more factual conversation. I had to admit it, but I do get intimidated if I find the woman especially attractive. It's like it sets off the fight or flight mechanism in my body that isn't present normally.

With Sally I started sending some more playful things and she will just write "lol" or "haha". She hasn't said anything remotely interesting. You don't like my idea of giving her a chance in person even if she's a boring texter?

[Versacehottie]

13 minutes ago, max3732 said:

I see your point about not being ready to date now with the virus, but respectfully disagree in one respect. If I were to wait until after the threat of the virus goes away, which is anyone's guess, then I wouldn't have had any of the experiences that I've had recently. I have been working hard on myself whether I message women on dating apps or not. They are not mutually exclusive.

I agree that it makes it hard to progress to the next level if I can't get close to them, but even before the virus I'd spend hours messaging women that would go absolutely nowhere. Actually getting to the point where we could meet in person seemed like a pipe dream. 

If we connect we can do a walk in the garden, maybe kayaking, or like you said another tennis date in addition to virtual dates. Even if it goes nowhere the alternative is no female contact whatsoever.

Yes, things seem to be progressing well with Amy. I've started mentally getting ahead of myself with her and need to stay relaxed and keep it fun. I see what you mean about not coming across as boring. Looking back at her messages Amy has taken some chances with me initially and then I reciprocated. I think it's like what someone else here said. I need to show my personality and take action and if she doesn't like it then I'll move on to someone else. I need to stop playing it so safe.

This applies to speed dating as well. The last time I did it I was talking to this women I had no interest in due to demographics, but we actually had a really fun conversation and we were both laughing by the end. She asked me where I was still single and I replied that I'm actually not. I'm a polygamist and am looking for another wife. She asked how many I had and I said 6 and I didn't feel right not having 1 for every day of the week and the conversation just flowed from there. The next speed date was with someone who was really attractive and I immediately felt nervous and tight and just had a more factual conversation. I had to admit it, but I do get intimidated if I find the woman especially attractive. It's like it sets off the fight or flight mechanism in my body that isn't present normally.

With Sally I started sending some more playful things and she will just write "lol" or "haha". She hasn't said anything remotely interesting. You don't like my idea of giving her a chance in person even if she's a boring texter?

I would say you better be honest pretty much up front what your limitations are (not the health specifics but what you are willing to do).  I think withholding that information will potentially ruin something you've put a lot of time into & feel good about. Also you need to prepare yourself if you are only willing to play tennis which you wear a mask to and from & won't get near her or walk in the park 6 feet apart with masks on that you are setting yourself up for a date with a severe lack of chemistry potential.  I'd say a person could maybe generate flirtation and chemistry off of these circumstances but it's an advanced move and you already struggle flirting in general!!!   And then what you are going to do to keep the relationship progressing?

I'm not sure that you should put dating completely on hold since the virus supposedly could be around for 1-2 years (currently what is one thing that is being said) but I think you better be honest and then if these awkward leaning dates by some miracle go well, you better be FLEXIBLE to keep them progressing. 

Absolutely agree that you can/should keep practice by communicating with women simultaneous to any improvements that you work on alone to make yourself more attractive to women.  That stuff goes hand in hand and can be worked on at the same time.  It's not like you are going to be dating up a storm due to the virus and more limited dating options in general and for you specifically due to your willingness to what you will do.

Yep, stop playing it so safe.

Ok,so Sally is boring and putting little effort in. I like the idea of you giving her a "chance" when your primary motive is to get practice and keep an open mind.  I think at the forefront of your mind equally should also be that you are not that impressed with her and one chance is enough. So did you do what I suggested or what do you plan to do with Sally to take it from lackluster and rapidly losing momentum to a date?  Otherwise you are just spinning your wheels and you are most likely going to put in effort with her that will be just wasted time when she drops off the face of the earth.

[Fresh_Start]

2 hours ago, Versacehottie said:

I would say you better be honest pretty much up front what your limitations are (not the health specifics but what you are willing to do).  I think withholding that information will potentially ruin something you've put a lot of time into & feel good about. Also you need to prepare yourself if you are only willing to play tennis which you wear a mask to and from & won't get near her or walk in the park 6 feet apart with masks on that you are setting yourself up for a date with a severe lack of chemistry potential.  I'd say a person could maybe generate flirtation and chemistry off of these circumstances but it's an advanced move and you already struggle flirting in general!!!   And then what you are going to do to keep the relationship progressing?

I'm not sure that you should put dating completely on hold since the virus supposedly could be around for 1-2 years (currently what is one thing that is being said) but I think you better be honest and then if these awkward leaning dates by some miracle go well, you better be FLEXIBLE to keep them progressing. 

^This, Max.

What I said to you is not about putting dating on hold altogether until "the threat of the virus is gone".  The "threat of the virus" could be here permanently.  It's about your own comfort level.  You are not comfortable going on a real date or having physical contact with these women and therefore shouldn't even be attempting to until you are comfortable.  If you are not comfortable doing something you won't be relaxed and if you aren't relaxed you won't be able to be flirty and fun, project an aura of self-confidence and self-assurance, and you will have even more difficulty trying to organically build chemistry and attraction than you already do.  A tennis date, furthermore, gives you no opportunity to do any of that anyways or even to have a conversation. 

I suggested that you put dating on hold until you get comfortable with the idea of going on real dates and having physical contact and then using that time wisely to work on yourself so that you can put forth the best version of you that you can be when you're ready to start dating normally.  You need to have a more solid foundation of self-confidence in place or everything you do is like trying to build a house on a weak foundation.  It will all collapse.  Without a solid foundation, you'll have trouble creating anything of value and anything that lasts.  You need to be able to reach a point where you aren't coming here asking for advice on every little thing you do and say.  Once you've reached that point and can overcome your fears of COVID-19 by studying the statistics and probability of infection, hospitalization, and death then you are in a good position to date. 

I don't want to turn this thread into a COVID-19 debate, but try to understand that you have a greater chance of being struck by lightning than you do of dying to COVID-19.  The median probability of confirmed infection in a county with a population of at least 500,000 is 1 in 40,500; the median probability of hospitalization is 1 in 709,000; and the median probability of a fatality is 1 in 6,670,000.  I have regularly been in public places (2-3 times per week) since the start of the lockdown to the present and I live in an area just outside of Philadelphia, which is right along the border of the New York epicenter of the virus.  My personal opinion, even if it's met with torches and pitchforks, is that you shouldn't allow COVID-19 to dictate the way you live your life.  

In closing, I will tell you straight away that Sally has zero interest in going out with you.  She has made that abundantly clear in ways that you are oblivious to.  For several pages you've been mentioning how she doesn't respond to your date suggestions and then said most recently that she will have to "check her schedule and get back to you".  Translation: I don't want to go out with you, Max.  If she did, she would have no problem giving you a day and time that she's available.  It's also why you're getting such lukewarm messages from her.  Stick a fork in her, she's done.  

Edited July 12, 2020 by Fresh_Start

[elaine567]

38 minutes ago, Fresh_Start said:

I don't want to turn this thread into a COVID-19 debate, but try to understand that you have a greater chance of being struck by lightning than you do of dying to COVID-19.  The median probability of confirmed infection in a county with a population of at least 500,000 is 1 in 40,500; the median probability of hospitalization is 1 in 709,000; and the median probability of a fatality is 1 in 6,670,000.

Max is high risk...

[Fresh_Start]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

Max is high risk...

I am aware.  Again, I don't want to turn this into a COVID-19 debate, but he can still apply that probability to a woman he goes on a date with and extrapolate from there.  His chances of getting COVID-19 are infinitesimally small based on the probability of his date having it and even if he is 5 times more likely to die from it than the average healthy adult in his age bracket, he still has a greater chance of being struck by lightning than dying to COVID-19.  Being "high risk" doesn't mean that you are guaranteed to get it when you leave your residence and getting it, even when you're high risk, doesn't guarantee death.  

My overall point was that if he won't feel comfortable going on real dates and having physical contact with women until after "the threat of COVID-19 goes away" then he has to understand that the threat of it could conceivably always be here, will most likely be here for at least another year, that there won't be a vaccine until around the second quarter of 2021 in a best case scenario, and that even then that will not make him or anyone else fully immune to it.  Going out with someone when you're not comfortable and don't want physical contact with them is a dead end so he has to decide whether or not he wants to pursue a date with almost no chance of becoming a relationship or if he considers the risk to be acceptable based on probability and is receptive to going on real dates and having physical contact with a woman. 

Only Max can decide that, but those are his choices.  Rushing headlong into a dead end though is folly and he'll learn this the hard way if that's his choice.