How do you know who is at fault?

[homecoming]

The last person I was involved with often told me that they had problems with intimacy (not sex, just closeness) and anxiety. A few times they would distance themselves when they felt overwhelmed with emotions, and once, they even broke up with me because of it (or so they said). 

The thing is, though - they would create an issue over something very minor. For example, they broke up with me because I hadn't replied to a text message. This was the first time I'd ever done that, and it was because my battery had died. When I had eventually charged it, we had a phone call in which I was accused of lying, being untrustworthy, etc. The anger and irritation that was directed at me didn't seem proportional to a one-off event like a missed text, which I'd explained and apologised for. Anyway, I was then broken up with. 

We eventually got back together and they broke up with me again in a more explosive way, but I digress. This person would seem to be quite nasty/blunt during these abrupt break ups, but in any post-break up conversation would suddenly calm down and act as if I was being mean to them, which to be honest, confused me, and still does. In the last break up, for example, they spent about 45 minutes on the phone ranting about everything that they thought was wrong with me - it was so surreal that I even tried to record the call, because none of it was making sense and I wanted to listen to it again. The things they were saying were just out of the blue, random, and made no sense - when I'd try to defend myself I was shut down, or told I wasn't paying attention. It didn't feel good. Bearing in mind that this person broke up with me over something they'd done, I just didn't get it. 

Anyway. As a codependent, I find it hard to trust my own judgement, at times. I don't know if I am the issue, or if this person is. Or maybe we both are. 

How do you really decipher who is at fault, or are you even meant to? I feel like sometimes I get stuck on these things - with this relationship and with other past failed relationships

[Beachead]

Hey Homecoming,

 If you feel like you're consistently being blamed, and not being heard, and when you try to clarify the misunderstandings that are occurring, they're committed to misunderstanding you and are generally being unreasonable..then I say its them that's the problem, especially if you are a person who doesn't have a problem admitting to his/her own mistakes or failures.  The key word here is consistently. Over and over again it happens and it seems to only happen with them.

Bear in mind, the way people treat you has more to do with them, than you and there are a lot of factors.  Past trauma that comes from bad relationships, be it familial, romantic or just friendship.  Past trauma that comes from situations that happened to them that were out of our control.   Our upbringing and the environment we grew up in.  We develop insecurities, fears, biases which all contribute to the way we feel about ourselves, how we perceive our world,  how we react to all of it. If we have bad coping mechanisms that allow us to run away or bury our problems, we never deal with it, so things get worse because those unresolved issues unknowingly bleed into our behavior our choices in life; The people we choose to bring into our lives.  The careers we choose to be in.  The amount of mistreatment and abuse we choose to take before we walk away from something.  It also affects the way we treat others.  So on so forth

I hope that helps a little

- Beach

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Beachead

[elaine567]

15 hours ago, homecoming said:

In the last break up

THIS^^ is your "fault", if we really want to assign fault, as "last" implies many, so why did you stick around even after the first time?  
These illogical break ups were cues for you to run, not wait around till he found something else to "beat" you up with...
Trouble is, these push pull relationships can be very addictive. The highs are so high the lows are so low.
Google "intermittent reinforcement" and watch this video.


 

[homecoming]

5 hours ago, elaine567 said:

THIS^^ is your "fault", if we really want to assign fault, as "last" implies many, so why did you stick around even after the first time?  
These illogical break ups were cues for you to run, not wait around till he found something else to "beat" you up with...
Trouble is, these push pull relationships can be very addictive. The highs are so high the lows are so low.
Google "intermittent reinforcement" and watch this video.


 

I agree. This year I’ve admitted to myself that my codependent habits have landed me in some very toxic situations. I suppose I just wasn’t strong enough to walk away, always giving the benefit of the doubt. 

[d0nnivain]

Most break-ups result from fault on both sides.  

In the situation you describe, your EX was a bit volatile & kinda mean but you let it happen by going back.  One break up & reconciliation, ok fine.  But when that 2nd chance doesn't make it better, you have to be done.  Even the 2nd chance if you haven't addressed what broke you up in the 1st place you are just going back to something that wasn't working & that is pointless.  

[homecoming]

4 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

Most break-ups result from fault on both sides.  

In the situation you describe, your EX was a bit volatile & kinda mean but you let it happen by going back.  One break up & reconciliation, ok fine.  But when that 2nd chance doesn't make it better, you have to be done.  Even the 2nd chance if you haven't addressed what broke you up in the 1st place you are just going back to something that wasn't working & that is pointless.  

Hey. 

Yes, I did let it happen, unfortunately. I can't really recall what state of mind I was in at that time, but I was getting warned off of this person by several people - and even the person themselves! I can't really explain or defend it. I guess I was just a bit naive in my thinking, perhaps. 

[d0nnivain]

When multiple people warn you off someone for valid reasons, listen.  I say valid because a # of people told me not to date my husband because he was too good looking.  I thought that was a stupid reason.  Plus they were trying to tell me that he was Player who couldn't be trusted but I already knew he wasn't. 

Also when the person themselves tells you things like I have a fear of commitment, listen to them.  

So again the fault lies with your disregard of the warning signs.  

[homecoming]

Just a journal-type post here...

I was going through some of my folders for previous uni work, and found some written by this ex, that I'd helped with (which is why they were on my laptop). I hadn't read them before because I was just busy with my own work and essays, so had no real need to, I suppose. 

There was one I hadn't come across before. It was a sort of reflective essay about their childhood, and some about their last relationship (before me). They noted that they would often point out flaws in their ex, have arguments, become angry, etc. Seems as if that relationship was awful and my ex even described it as such in the essay. They wrote a lot about their childhood, and personal emotions and emotional neglect from both parents. 

Reading this has sort of... helped? I mean, it's written by my ex, detailing all of their problems that they seem very aware of. So. I mean, while I have my own codependent patterns, it looks as if it wasn't 100% my fault, at all. Hmm. 

[homecoming]

Just now, d0nnivain said:

When multiple people warn you off someone for valid reasons, listen.  I say valid because a # of people told me not to date my husband because he was too good looking.  I thought that was a stupid reason.  Plus they were trying to tell me that he was Player who couldn't be trusted but I already knew he wasn't. 

Also when the person themselves tells you things like I have a fear of commitment, listen to them.  

So again the fault lies with your disregard of the warning signs.  

I completely agree with the part in bold, I can't even lie! Moving forward, it doesn't seem likely that it's an experience that will be repeated. 

[homecoming]

20 hours ago, Beachead said:

Hey Homecoming,

 If you feel like you're consistently being blamed, and not being heard, and when you try to clarify the misunderstandings that are occurring, they're committed to misunderstanding you and are generally being unreasonable..then I say its them that's the problem, especially if you are a person who doesn't have a problem admitting to his/her own mistakes or failures.  The key word here is consistently. Over and over again it happens and it seems to only happen with them.

Bear in mind, the way people treat you has more to do with them, than you and there are a lot of factors.  Past trauma that comes from bad relationships, be it familial, romantic or just friendship.  Past trauma that comes from situations that happened to them that were out of our control.   Our upbringing and the environment we grew up in.  We develop insecurities, fears, biases which all contribute to the way we feel about ourselves, how we perceive our world,  how we react to all of it. If we have bad coping mechanisms that allow us to run away or bury our problems, we never deal with it, so things get worse because those unresolved issues unknowingly bleed into our behavior our choices in life; The people we choose to bring into our lives.  The careers we choose to be in.  The amount of mistreatment and abuse we choose to take before we walk away from something.  It also affects the way we treat others.  So on so forth

I hope that helps a little

- Beach

 

Hi Beach - thank you for this long detailed response, I really appreciate it. 

You're right, it does have to do with them - it's unfortunate, but that's how it is, I suppose. 

[Emilie Jolie]

23 minutes ago, homecoming said:

I mean, it's written by my ex, detailing all of their problems that they seem very aware of. So. I mean, while I have my own codependent patterns, it looks as if it wasn't 100% my fault, at all. Hmm. 

I don't think it's healthy to look at it from a perspective of whose fault it is, to be honest. It's neither their fault or yours (unless there was psychopathic or deliberately malevolent, manipulative, criminal or deviant stuff going on, I guess).

You both have a responsibility to own your own part  in terms of how the relationship went down for sure - you weren't suited, the timing sucked, one or both of you have / had a fixed pattern of behaviour you weren't able to break, you had communication issues, external factors out of your control (family or work issues or whatever) or a combination of these things - but the main thing is the positives you take from this: you now know to place firmer boundaries. 

Clearly, you ex had some intimacy-building issues and a lot of insecurities; you need to be in a strong state of mind either to be able to take this on or to take yourself out of the drama.  

Looking at the bigger picture, take your part of the responsibility but don't dwell on it. Your next relationship will likely be different, and this experience means you are mentally better prepared to approach it on a stronger footing.

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

Your both at fault... Fault isn't something you need to ponder on, you live your life and the commonalities of your faults add up, you see yourself struggle in the same areas, you know where your faults are over time... Stopping to point a finger is masturbation.

[homecoming]

12 minutes ago, CAPSLOCK BANDIT said:

Your both at fault... Fault isn't something you need to ponder on, you live your life and the commonalities of your faults add up, you see yourself struggle in the same areas, you know where your faults are over time... Stopping to point a finger is masturbation.

I’m not referring to the nuances. I’m referring to the one incident that led to the break up, which perhaps I should have been more clear about in my OP.

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

Just now, homecoming said:

I’m not referring to the nuances. I’m referring to the one incident that led to the break up, which perhaps I should have been more clear about in my OP.

Well, when you get approached by a dude, any dude, your going to have a lot of experience with that because its like an entry level thing to dating, if you dont get approached or dont approach somebody, you cannot begin to build report.. In your approaches, you can more readily see your faults because you have more experiences to draw off of... For break ups, most of us dont have that much experience to draw off of, we cant quantify what constitutes a normal break up besides the outcome of two people amicably not seeing each other, like what else should a break up look like? Does "Its not you, its me," have to be said?

If you want more information about this break up, go begin the process of reaching your next one.

[homecoming]

16 minutes ago, CAPSLOCK BANDIT said:

Your both at fault... Fault isn't something you need to ponder on, you live your life and the commonalities of your faults add up, you see yourself struggle in the same areas, you know where your faults are over time... Stopping to point a finger is masturbation.

I am aware that I ignored red flags, and that's my fault.

When I speak of something being my fault, I am referring to concepts such as not being good enough, being too needy, etc etc, that's made someone treat me poorly and reject me in an explosive manner - not wider faults like staying in a bad relationship, or ignoring red flags. 

I don't claim to be innocent or perfect, in my OP I stated that I am codependent. However, the person I was with did do and say some awful things, and ended up breaking up with me in a horrible and humilating manner, which I have blamed myself for - did I say something wrong, etc. It turns out that no, that person's behaviour wasn't influenced by me or anything I said or did, as I have read in this essay they have had these issues since early adolescence, when I didn't even know them. 

I think that's a bit clearer in what I mean when I say "fault"

[homecoming]

4 minutes ago, CAPSLOCK BANDIT said:

Well, when you get approached by a dude, any dude, your going to have a lot of experience with that because its like an entry level thing to dating, if you dont get approached or dont approach somebody, you cannot begin to build report.. In your approaches, you can more readily see your faults because you have more experiences to draw off of... For break ups, most of us dont have that much experience to draw off of, we cant quantify what constitutes a normal break up besides the outcome of two people amicably not seeing each other, like what else should a break up look like? Does "Its not you, its me," have to be said?

If you want more information about this break up, go begin the process of reaching your next one.

I'm sorry, I'm having trouble understanding this take or what point you're trying to convey. And I'm not interested in relationships or going through another break up, at the moment.

And I am very sure that a normal break up doesn't involved someone, out of the blue exploding with anger and ranting about you to a bunch of people - while you stand there confused -  then breaking up with you soon after. That isn't typical of the other break ups I've experienced.

Edited June 30, 2020 by homecoming

[Ruby Slippers]

It takes two to tango. You've identified that you're codependent, which means you likely overlook all kinds of warning signs just so you don't have to be alone, which eventually results in all this crazy stuff.

Sounds like you need to learn to stand strong on your own, so you can be more discerning about whom you let close to you.

[ShyViolet]

I hate the word "gaslighting", it's become such an overused buzzword nowadays, but I think it is fair to use that term to describe what this guy was doing.  He sounds unstable and just mean.

I agree it was both of your faults.... it was his fault for being mean, cruel and volatile, but it was your fault for accepting this and going back to him time and time again.

[Lotsgoingon]

You just said your ex made shocking and confusing and nonsensical allegations against you. 

To get out of codependence, you have to start trusting your judgment. Look, you cannot go around in the world ... and tell a story about an ex making no sense ... and then ask yourself whether you are the problem. If you have codependent tendencies, you need to strengthen your trust in your feeling when someone doesn't make sense. 

Manipulators and those types need to trust themselves less when they describe someone as making no sense. YOU have to trust yourself more!

The codependent move you make here is that basically you're dealing with someone who is deeply troubled apparently ...and yet, you don't have the reflex pull away.

Here's your first step. Someone makes no sense--trust that feeling!  Someone accuses you of doing something without acknowledging that they did the thing, you need to start calling this out. Open  your mouth and talk. "I'm confused. You're accusing me of what I feel like you've done." ... or "I'm sorry, I can't talk about this right now." And leave. Run.

Here's another tip: quit trying to think so hard. If you're having to think hard to make sense of what a partner is saying, stop. That means the partner wasn't communicating well ... or made no effing sense. 

[basil67]

@homecoming that first breakup where your phone had run out of battery was HIS fault.  It was completely unreasonable of him to not only call you names but to break up over it.    The only thing you did wrong in that breakup was give a serious apology when he was mad at you.  I say this because you did nothing to apologise for - it's not as if you'd blocked him deliberately. 

If something like this ever happens again - like your phone is dead, out of range or you simply don't hear it..... and if they have no good reason to assume you've died or been hurt.... just give them the reason with a light apology.   "Sorry, I missed your call.  I didn't know my phone had run out" is more than enough.   If they stay mad at you, don't apologise again.  Hang up on them or walk away if you need to.    

With the second break up, don't ever allow someone to rant at you for 45 mins.   And don't defend yourself either.   Just hang up or walk away.   Giving him space to abuse you gives him power over you.  

Edited July 1, 2020 by basil67

[Emilie Jolie]

17 hours ago, CAPSLOCK BANDIT said:

Your both at fault.

Fault means blame means guilt means it takes longer to process and recover.

Taking responsibility means  focusing on a positive outcome.

Somebody's at fault when they do premeditated stuff. We don't know that it's the case here. 

@homecoming's ex sounds unstable; either it's part of their personality or a build-up of unresolved issues, but it's not homecoming's fault or responsibility to address their behaviour.

Having codependent tendencies isn't a fault anyway; it's a set of behaviours that you can learn to undo.

Shifting your thinking so you focus on positive outcomes helps stengthen your mindset, in my experience. 

[homecoming]

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

@homecoming that first breakup where your phone had run out of battery was HIS fault.  It was completely unreasonable of him to not only call you names but to break up over it.    The only thing you did wrong in that breakup was give a serious apology when he was mad at you.  I say this because you did nothing to apologise for - it's not as if you'd blocked him deliberately. 

If something like this ever happens again - like your phone is dead, out of range or you simply don't hear it..... and if they have no good reason to assume you've died or been hurt.... just give them the reason with a light apology.   "Sorry, I missed your call.  I didn't know my phone had run out" is more than enough.   If they stay mad at you, don't apologise again.  Hang up on them or walk away if you need to.    

With the second break up, don't ever allow someone to rant at you for 45 mins.   And don't defend yourself either.   Just hang up or walk away.   Giving him space to abuse you gives him power over you.  

That's a good point. I did say that at first, very casually - "My battery died, I've just got in, sorry" and it seemed as if he wanted to interrogate me further. At one point he said something like "you've had me waiting for three hours" - it hadn't been three hours, and he had deliberately used that time frame to try and confuse me, later saying "so why did you say three hours when it hadn't been three hours?" - when it was him who'd mentioned that time frame in the first place. 

It sounds so crazy to write now. I don't know why I was engaging with him or believing anything he was saying. I don't know how someone like that will ever be happy and content within themselves. 

 

[homecoming]

5 hours ago, Lotsgoingon said:

You just said your ex made shocking and confusing and nonsensical allegations against you. 

To get out of codependence, you have to start trusting your judgment. Look, you cannot go around in the world ... and tell a story about an ex making no sense ... and then ask yourself whether you are the problem. If you have codependent tendencies, you need to strengthen your trust in your feeling when someone doesn't make sense. 

Manipulators and those types need to trust themselves less when they describe someone as making no sense. YOU have to trust yourself more!

The codependent move you make here is that basically you're dealing with someone who is deeply troubled apparently ...and yet, you don't have the reflex pull away.

Here's your first step. Someone makes no sense--trust that feeling!  Someone accuses you of doing something without acknowledging that they did the thing, you need to start calling this out. Open  your mouth and talk. "I'm confused. You're accusing me of what I feel like you've done." ... or "I'm sorry, I can't talk about this right now." And leave. Run.

Here's another tip: quit trying to think so hard. If you're having to think hard to make sense of what a partner is saying, stop. That means the partner wasn't communicating well ... or made no effing sense. 

Thank you for this. I feel your style of writing really made this easy to understand. 

Since this person, I've had a couple of experiences with people from my past who've resurfaced and acted irrationally angry. The moment I felt anxiety rising, and things making no sense, I told them that I'd no longer be engaging and I blocked them. It went against my habitual behavioural patterns, and felt strange to do, but it seemed as if I could instantly recognise when something was 'wrong' with the way the person was behaving towards me. So I think this whole thing has left me with more awareness around unhealthy dynamics. 

[d0nnivain]

21 hours ago, homecoming said:

I am aware that I ignored red flags, and that's my fault.

When I speak of something being my fault, I am referring to concepts such as not being good enough, being too needy, etc etc, that's made someone treat me poorly and reject me in an explosive manner - not wider faults like staying in a bad relationship, or ignoring red flags. 

Ignoring red flags in on you.  But you are now better equipped to recognize them which helps to deal with them.  

That is vastly different from being needy, not good enough.  You are plenty good enough.  It's OK to need other people once in a while.   Work on your self esteem to address the misperception that you are not good enough.  

You said you are getting better -- & stronger -- about recognizing your own rising anxiety in certain situations as an alert that something's wrong so you can stay away.  That is a huge step forward. 

Keep up with your progress.  

[Lotsgoingon]

Trust yourself. The rule basically is that the right person will FEEL like the right person.

You won't have to think hard and justify and make sense of what they're doing. And remember, you are not judging someone (though that's fine) when you find they aren't a good partner. You're simply concluding that this person isn't a good fit for you (and you not for them) ... so both of you are better off if you go seek partnership elsewhere.