Anti-Masker protesters spreading the infection

[introverted1]

I'm in the US epicenter and we have a mandatory mask order in my county.  In spite of that, there are both store employees and customers not wearing masks. And this is at big chains, like Home Depot, Pet Smart, and Walmart. 

I don't enjoy wearing a mask but I do it out of respect for others.  And I hope they will do the same for me.

[nittygritty]

A bus driver in France was beaten to death for telling 4 people that they couldn’t get on the bus without wearing a mask.
 

The face mask mandates do put employees at risk of being assaulted and attacked for having to enforce the policy. It has already happened several times in the US where these ridiculous mandates are being implemented. Then the business is also at risk of being sued by the employee that gets assaulted on the job. I have no problem with strongly encouraging people to wear face masks but it is a divided issue that some people no matter what are going to refuse to do. It should not be up to businesses to enforce it or to have to start calling the police on people that refuse to wear a face mask. It makes no sense for a restaurant or bar to refuse service to a customer that does not have a face mask on because they certainly cannot eat Or drink with a face mask on. And there will always be other restaurants that they have to compete with that does not enforce face mask policies no matter what is legislated. Even drive thru windows are not 6 feet apart from the customer in a car picking up the order. It is beyond difficult for businesses to reopen especially restaurants. It is difficult enough and expensive to provide PPE equipment, hand sanitizer, paper menus, thermometers, etc for their employees And social distancing customers that allows less than half of the restaurant capacity. Also having to find employees that are even willing to work because the federal government is paying them more until the end of July not to with the federal unemployment benefit. And now local governments expect businesses to take on the burden of becoming the face mask police and getting assaulted or attacked and no doubt losing customers.  
 

The logical solution is for the government to give hospitals more money to care for COVID Patients. If the ICU’s are full they need to build bigger ICU’s specifically for the pneumonia, flu and COVID cases that they claim to be overwhelming ICU’s. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by nittygritty

[pepperbird]

On 7/5/2020 at 10:31 PM, QuietRiot said:

This is a good analogy comparing pants to masks

Maybe this'll help

https://twitter.com/mlipsitch/status/1256603982820188160/photo/1

Also, let's talk about other countries. If other countries won't let us into their borders, it's pretty obvious how other countries see us.

yeah, don't fall for that one.
We keep being told "our border with the USA is closed". Meanwhile, people are freely flying back and forth every day.

[QuietRiot]

11 hours ago, introverted1 said:

I'm in the US epicenter and we have a mandatory mask order in my county.  In spite of that, there are both store employees and customers not wearing masks. And this is at big chains, like Home Depot, Pet Smart, and Walmart. 

I don't enjoy wearing a mask but I do it out of respect for others.  And I hope they will do the same for me.

Really? Wait in a county where masks are mandated...those businesses have employees NOT wearing masks? They are aware of the mandate, are they not? I figured businesses, esp. big businesses, would be on board as soon as the mandates kicked in.

They don't want the  Dept of Health knockin' on their doors with fines in tow.

[major_merrick]

21 hours ago, regine_phalange said:

They just don't understand how serious the situation is. I work closely with someone who during COVID has gotten a very grim second job... Her job is to go to suspected COVID patient houses and confirm that they are dead. Let's say that she has been very very busy for the past few months... 

Actually, I have a very good idea.  My mother-in-law is the county coroner, and has been in medicine since the 80's.  She's against all the masks, the CDC stuff...the whole works.  We don't see eye-to-eye on everything, but

Interesting thing she's notices when conferring with the coroner from the next county over (our state's recent hot-spot).  People aren't dying of COVID.  However, as social interaction has taken a hit and employment has been affected, suicides are WAY up.  As we save some people from the virus, other folks die in different ways.  I seem to remember mentioning this possibility many, many weeks ago. 

16 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

You'll go somewhere else with your money? You must have your own garden where you grow your food...if no grocery store will take you if you refuse to wear a mask, then you'll starve. Unless you'll do all your shopping online, but with groceries, that'll be limited.

Well, the mask crap is haphazard here.  Some towns do it, some don't.  Even some stores in the "mask zone" refuse to enforce the do-nothing ordinances and there's not much the authorities can do about it.  But yeah, I've got a big garden and critters. 

If it came down to being "refused" service everywhere and I actually needed the stuff....I'd go in with cash, calculate the tax rate on what I buy, hand 'em exact change and a piece of paper with my math.  Then leave with my stuff.  It ain't robbery if you pay, and it is a lot more socially acceptable than what I did as a teenager. 

13 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

 It's good that you live in a compound where you produce what you need to take care of yourselves.  There seems to be little necessity for you, your saliva particles and firearms to be of concern to the rest of  the population.   Win/win.

At this point, I go out simply because I can.  While I was pregnant, I barely left our property for four months.   The desire for junk food is strong with this one  😝  Bringing my saliva and my guns to irritate the snowflakes....that's just an added bonus.  Cheers! 

[QuietRiot]

6 hours ago, major_merrick said:

Actually, I have a very good idea.  My mother-in-law is the county coroner, and has been in medicine since the 80's.  She's against all the masks, the CDC stuff...the whole works.  We don't see eye-to-eye on everything, but

Interesting thing she's notices when conferring with the coroner from the next county over (our state's recent hot-spot).  People aren't dying of COVID.  However, as social interaction has taken a hit and employment has been affected, suicides are WAY up.  As we save some people from the virus, other folks die in different ways.  I seem to remember mentioning this possibility many, many weeks ago. 

Well, the mask crap is haphazard here.  Some towns do it, some don't.  Even some stores in the "mask zone" refuse to enforce the do-nothing ordinances and there's not much the authorities can do about it.  But yeah, I've got a big garden and critters. 

If it came down to being "refused" service everywhere and I actually needed the stuff....I'd go in with cash, calculate the tax rate on what I buy, hand 'em exact change and a piece of paper with my math.  Then leave with my stuff.  It ain't robbery if you pay, and it is a lot more socially acceptable than what I did as a teenager. 

At this point, I go out simply because I can.  While I was pregnant, I barely left our property for four months.   The desire for junk food is strong with this one  😝  Bringing my saliva and my guns to irritate the snowflakes....that's just an added bonus.  Cheers! 

Yeah, a local journalist told me though the mandates are in place "they have no teeth".  Recently, the local business owners posted on a local board giving praise to said small town's mandate as it's rather a touristy downtown area where the big city folks that come from the Covid Hotspot come to shop on the weekends. A destination they go to on their country rides ...away from the even more infected areas.

The small town folks got nervous on this and said something to the mayor, and viola, the mandate was set in place. So chances are ANY business you go to...at least in the downtown district..won't let you in without a mask.

Edited July 14, 2020 by QuietRiot

[Piddy]

Recently a 65 year old man saw a woman in a Publix grocery store bending over and looking at the vegetables where they make sub sandwiches.  She wore no mask.  He spoke up and long story short he was banned from Publix.  The guy wearing the mask was banned. 🙄 

So it's not really being enforced even though some counties have a $500 dollar fine for not wearing a mask inside a public place.  

In other news like below there's these Covid parties taking place with young  people.  You go to a party where a known person has the virus.  No masks.  Well a 30 year old man went to one of these parties and got the virus.  He ended up dying.  

"A 30-year-old man died of coronavirus in Texas this week after attending a so-called "Covid party".

Dr Jane Appleby, chief medical officer for Methodist Hospital and Methodist Children’s Hospital in San Antonio, said that the unidentified man’s last words were: “I think I made a mistake. I thought this was a hoax, but it's not.”

In a recorded statement, Dr Appleby said that the patient told nurses about the party which she said was hosted by someone diagnosed with coronavirus.

“The thought is people get together to see if the virus is real and if anyone gets infected,” she said.

Dr Appleby decided to share the story to get the message across that the virus can affect anyone."

Edited July 14, 2020 by Piddy

[Ellener]

It's taken a few weeks for the 'best practice' infection prevention and control to come together, then anything which is a major lifestyle change takes a while to become normalised.

Even the US President and UK PM are wearing their face coverings now.

I've been washing soft fabric masks, I got an eye infection where the paper one rubbed and I didn't want to keep touching it to pull it down! $3.95 at Kroger here per fabric mask with adjustable ear loops, either plain or a variety of patterns including the US flag.

But a lot of people make their own and some are very creative.

😷

[introverted1]

11 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

Really? Wait in a county where masks are mandated...those businesses have employees NOT wearing masks? They are aware of the mandate, are they not? I figured businesses, esp. big businesses, would be on board as soon as the mandates kicked in.

They don't want the  Dept of Health knockin' on their doors with fines in tow.

Really.

I have personally witnessed it at Petsmart (0 employees wearing masks), Home Depot (about 50/50 with and without masks), and Walmart (roughly 80/20 in favor of masks). 

Enforcement is nearly impossible. The CDC says that anyone with a breathing condition should not wear a mask.  Ditto the deaf.  There is a long list of exceptions on the CDC web site.  That leaves a pretty wide berth for non-compliance.  Businesses are required to accommodate customers who may not be able to wear masks due to a medical condition. I can't even imagine what that would entail.  And even if you could prove that someone was capable of wearing a mask but is choosing not to, what would you do - jail people?  fine them?  Fines sound good in theory but tend to harm poor people disproportionately.  It's a mess. 

[Atwood]

We have no clue what's effective, what isn't, all the ways it's transmitted or how the virus works. We'll gain all of that in time and hindsight. Meanwhile, people are getting very ill, being left with serious long-term effects, or living out the rest of their lives on ventilators and dying. Unless you have a genuine medical reason not to, why would you not wear a mask as a precaution when knowing all of this? We already know that the best defence is to stay home and limit travel, but we have not been able to trust people even to do this, some people stupidly believing the virus is a hoax or that the numbers are exaggerated. 

Is it nice to wear a mask? Does it feel good? Do I want to wear one? No. Will I? Yes, because there is literally no excuse for me to be so selfish and idiotic. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Atwood

[elaine567]

33 minutes ago, introverted1 said:

.  And even if you could prove that someone was capable of wearing a mask but is choosing not to, what would you do - jail people?  fine them? 
Fines sound good in theory but tend to harm poor people disproportionately.  It's a mess.

Not if they wear a mask/face covering.
English fine = £100 for non compliance...

[Redhead14]

39 minutes ago, introverted1 said:

 but tend to harm poor people disproportionately. 

And possibly spreading a disease to some innocent person and causing death/serious illness isn't disproportionate to the level of inconvenience of taking a couple of seconds to put on a mask???

[introverted1]

6 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Not if they wear a mask/face covering.
English fine = £100 for non compliance...

 

2 minutes ago, Redhead14 said:

And possibly spreading a disease to some innocent person and causing death/serious illness isn't disproportionate to the level of inconvenience of taking a couple of seconds to put on a mask???

😣

If you read what I've posted, I am in FAVOR of mask wearing. 

That doesn't negate the fact that fines tend to disproportionately harm poor people.

Forget about the irony of a country that has just spent weeks protesting in favor of defunding the police to now ask those same police to become experts in who has a legitimate reason for not wearing a mask and who does.  And then applying enforcement fairly.

Maybe the above is why, in my county with a mask order, there have not been penalties for non-compliance.

[Redhead14]

1 minute ago, introverted1 said:

 

😣

If you read what I've posted, I am in FAVOR of mask wearing. 

That doesn't negate the fact that fines tend to disproportionately harm poor people.

Forget about the irony of a country that has just spent weeks protesting in favor of defunding the police to now ask those same police to become experts in who has a legitimate reason for not wearing a mask and who does.  And then applying enforcement fairly.

Maybe the above is why, in my county with a mask order, there have not been penalties for non-compliance.

I wasn't going against you.  Just pointing out the irony of the statement.

[introverted1]

Just now, Redhead14 said:

I wasn't going against you.  Just pointing out the irony of the statement.

It's a legitimate concern.

From Current Affairs magazine:

Quote

One of the most insidious fine regimes comes from the government itself in the form of fines in criminal court, where monetary penalties are frequently used as punishment for common misdemeanors and ordinance violations. Courts have been criticized for increasingly imposing fines indiscriminately, in ways that turn judges into debt collectors and jails into debtors’ prisons. The Department of Justice found that fines and fees in certain courts were exacted in such a way as to force “individuals to confront escalating debt; face repeated, unnecessary incarceration for nonpayment despite posing no danger to the community; lose their jobs; and become trapped in cycles of poverty that can be nearly impossible to escape.”

From the American Bar Association:

Quote

No person in America should be locked up because they are poor. Yet, every day we see homeless people arrested for sleeping outside; parents who can’t afford to purchase their release from jail; and people who cycle in and out of jail because they can’t afford to pay old fines as their debt grows from new ones. Meanwhile, cities and counties fill their coffers from the fines and fees that are imposed on people who are struggling just to survive.

If you think I enjoy potential exposure to covid when those around me refuse to wear a mask, you are mistaken.  I am just aware of the larger picture of what fines lead to.  I don't know what the answer is. 

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

Florida, from what I have heard, seems to be a hot bed for infection because of the behavior of all the young people there, video after video of them partying in the bars, on the beaches... These people should be jailed, they are a liability to themselves and everyone around them.

 

The contrast between China and the US is fascinating... We are literally having trouble containing our infected patients, meanwhile in China, they'll literally shove you into a van and basically kidnap you.

Edited July 14, 2020 by CAPSLOCK BANDIT

[central]

23 hours ago, nittygritty said:

The logical solution is for the government to give hospitals more money to care for COVID Patients. If the ICU’s are full they need to build bigger ICU’s specifically for the pneumonia, flu and COVID cases that they claim to be overwhelming ICU’s. 

Sure, you can build them - but it can take a long time and very large costs to build a specialized facility, often a couple of years.  But then you have to staff them.  It takes years to train doctors and nurses, and there is already a shortage.  Many people won't want the job now, given how risky it is, the long hours, the isolation from family, and a systemic lack of support when it comes to proving personal protective equipment.  The money isn't worth it, except for the most dedicated.  Also, the current schools don't have the capacity to significantly increase the number of students.  Of course, proper training requires in-person labs, so some of those students will inevitably catch the virus, leading to temporary closures of the school, and some instructors are older, and will die or have permanent disabilities as a result.  Maybe your idea could bear fruit - in 6 to 10 years.

[QuietRiot]

9 hours ago, Atwood said:

We have no clue what's effective, what isn't, all the ways it's transmitted or how the virus works. We'll gain all of that in time and hindsight. Meanwhile, people are getting very ill, being left with serious long-term effects, or living out the rest of their lives on ventilators and dying. Unless you have a genuine medical reason not to, why would you not wear a mask as a precaution when knowing all of this? We already know that the best defence is to stay home and limit travel, but we have not been able to trust people even to do this, some people stupidly believing the virus is a hoax or that the numbers are exaggerated. 

Is it nice to wear a mask? Does it feel good? Do I want to wear one? No. Will I? Yes, because there is literally no excuse for me to be so selfish and idiotic. 

RIght and people are going out of their way to print out FAKE medical cards saying they can't wear masks.

[major_merrick]

1 hour ago, QuietRiot said:

RIght and people are going out of their way to print out FAKE medical cards saying they can't wear masks.

Where has this happened?  And what kind of medical card would someone even be able to use for this? 

There are a lot of people who legit can't breath through masks.  But bothering to get some kind of card that says so?  I think that simply not cooperating and just going about one's business seems to work effectively enough. 

There's also other options, such as pretending not to speak any English at all.....speak a language different than the top 3 languages in your area and nobody will really bother you.  I could always pretend to be a "dumb Russian" and use people's stereotypes in my favor.  If they hand me a mask, look at it quizzically, then take a bite out of it and walk off happily pretending it is a free food sample.     

[NuevoYorko]

On 7/14/2020 at 7:09 AM, Redhead14 said:

And possibly spreading a disease to some innocent person and causing death/serious illness isn't disproportionate to the level of inconvenience of taking a couple of seconds to put on a mask???

As is demonstrated conveniently on this thread, the answer to your question is "no."  

We have well laid out posts explaining this American perspective, mostly following the lines of "nobody's gonna tell me what to do" and "sure people are going to die, let it 'burn through' the country and just get the deaths over with as quickly as possible. Where I live everything is fine."  

[Piddy]

Walmart just said that they will require customers to wear masks beginning July 20th.  This will include all of it's more than 5000 stores including Sams Clubs.  Good for them.  They will offer a free mask to people and will sell masks as well. 

People who refuse to be considerate of the public health and continue to not wear a mask will soon be running out of places to shop.  I guess that's their problem.  I wonder if all the anti mask wearing people would shop in a crowed grocery store with fellow anti mask wearers? 

  In other words no one wore a mask.  Just a thought.

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Piddy

[Redhead14]

1 hour ago, NuevoYorko said:

As is demonstrated conveniently on this thread, the answer to your question is "no."  

We have well laid out posts explaining this American perspective, mostly following the lines of "nobody's gonna tell me what to do" and "sure people are going to die, let it 'burn through' the country and just get the deaths over with as quickly as possible. Where I live everything is fine."  

And my go to response to them is F U . . .  I'll be sorry for their families if they are next, but I won't be too sad just like they aren't for anyone else.  Mutual apathy.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Redhead14

[Kitty Tantrum]

I had a big long reply typed up but it got eaten. The long and short of it, though, is that civil disobedience won't get you far in the grocery stores around here. Even if the mask mandates ultimately prove to be unenforceable, you'll get booted for trespassing if you refuse to wear a mask AND refuse to leave, and that's that.

Stores in my area won't even honor medical exemptions for in-store shopping now that the state has imposed (IIRC) a $10k fine on businesses that fail to require masks. If you say you can't wear a mask, they don't care why; they offer you curbside pickup (no mask required).

I think it's absurd, but we haven't yet reached the point where I'd be willing to engage in any civil disobedience, and I don't think the grocery store is the place to do it. If/when I reach that point, I imagine most of the shopkeepers and business owners will be with me.

Right now they're either scared for their health or they're being bullied by the government into policing the public. Possibly a little of both. Neither of those things makes them my enemy.

Anyone who is worried about the precedents being set here, anyone who is inclined at this point to make a stink about it, might do well to consider that if this whole thing IS being blown out of proportion to serve an agenda, then the kind of civil disobedience that puts you directly at odds with your neighbors might just be playing right into the "divide and conquer" strategy.

[Piddy]

1 hour ago, Kitty Tantrum said:

 

Anyone who is worried about the precedents being set here, anyone who is inclined at this point to make a stink about it, might do well to consider that if this whole thing IS being blown out of proportion to serve an agenda, then the kind of civil disobedience that puts you directly at odds with your neighbors might just be playing right into the "divide and conquer" strategy.

 

I think you're over thinking this. 

There's no agenda except to help stop the spread of the virus.  Isn't it just common sense that if everyone where's a mask in an indoor public space, that it can help prevent the spread of the virus, since it's main source of transmission is thru droplets / particles from the nose and mouth of a person?

And if it's also spread thru aerosol then the microscopic particles could hang in the air for up to three hours and float around like dust.  So just practicing social distancing may not prevent exposure.

What happens if like has been reported that antibodies dissipate over time and you can possibly get the virus again?  Then herd immunity won't help in the long run.  And vaccines could be a ways off and even when they become available it could take even more time to make enough for the whole world.

So again, why isn't it just common sense to cover your nose and mouth with a mask to help stop the spread?  I mean it's just logical thinking.  No conspiracy or ulterior motives .  No hidden agenda.  Just a good public safety measure.

It's kind of like mandating wearing a seat belt.  Evidence shows that wearing a seat belt can help prevent you from serious injury or death in a car accident.   No hidden agenda.  Just common sense.

  Same with the virus.   If you contract the virus you may get a case of mild, moderate or severe symptoms that could kill you.  But why not minimize that chance?  Why not do something as simple as wearing a face covering to help minimize the spread of the virus? 

Just seems like a common sense thing to do, same as wearing a seat belt.

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Piddy

[Timshel]

1 hour ago, Kitty Tantrum said:

Anyone who is worried about the precedents being set here, anyone who is inclined at this point to make a stink about it, might do well to consider that if this whole thing IS being blown out of proportion to serve an agenda, then the kind of civil disobedience that puts you directly at odds with your neighbors might just be playing right into the "divide and conquer" strategy.

I would appreciate to be informed of the 'agenda.'  I would also like to know more about 'playing into 'divide and conquer strategy.'  If you be so kind to share, Kitty.