Anti-Masker protesters spreading the infection

[gaius]

Yeah @major_merrick, in an economy with 11% unemployment they can just run out and get another job. The same conditions that make them high risk usually prevent them from doing certain types of work. A 60 something year old cashier or teacher isn't going to be able to run out and just get a construction job instead. You're not being realistic.

And the George Washington story was only one example. Throughout our history we've had plenty of quarantines, inoculated regular citizens without their consent and it's almost always been accepted by the courts for good reason. They forcibly quarantined Typhoid Mary for over 23 years of her life without trial. You think that's a country that prioritizes unbridled liberty over public health? It's not, never has been and hopefully never will be.

[major_merrick]

@gaius  IDK about where you live, but in the city near me there are TONS of places advertising that they need employees.  So yes, at least here there's work to be had.  And again, how exactly is that everybody else's problem?  Personal responsibility mostly solves those issues. 

Once again, your examples from history don't seem to fit.  Many of the things the medical establishment did in the past are examples of tyranny, violation of ethical standards, and lack of due process, rather than good policy.  It simply shows that this country has had problems since the 19th century.  Its that same "public health" system that did the Tuskegee syphilis experiment.  Oh yeah, the government often issues an apology after something they've done has caused damage or death.  But "Sorry" doesn't do much good.  That's why we absolutely must be proactive about our own health and liberty. 

[lana-banana]

7 hours ago, major_merrick said:

We cannot be legally obligated to be our "brother's keeper" as this is not some socialist utopia and was never intended to be one. 

"According to settled principles, the police power of a State must be held to embrace, at least, such reasonable regulations established directly by legislative enactment as will protect the public health and the public safety.” (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 1905)

Edited July 6, 2020 by lana-banana

[QuietRiot]

7 hours ago, gaius said:

Yeah @major_merrick, in an economy with 11% unemployment they can just run out and get another job. The same conditions that make them high risk usually prevent them from doing certain types of work. A 60 something year old cashier or teacher isn't going to be able to run out and just get a construction job instead. You're not being realistic.

And the George Washington story was only one example. Throughout our history we've had plenty of quarantines, inoculated regular citizens without their consent and it's almost always been accepted by the courts for good reason. They forcibly quarantined Typhoid Mary for over 23 years of her life without trial. You think that's a country that prioritizes unbridled liberty over public health? It's not, never has been and hopefully never will be.

Right, it has been verified by political experts that it is NOT unconstitutional to mandate masks or in time, require citizens to take the new Covid 19 vaccine. Of course you have your wack job anti-vaccers that will take issue.

Here:

https://www.wbir.com/article/news/verify/verify-requiring-masks-does-not-violate-your-constitutional-rights/51-16fbea5e-12c0-4b01-aafc-27367ca71640

Consider the 1905 case of: (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 1905)

This was put in motion when Small Pox hit and made everyone take the small pox vaccine.

"No," answered Harris.  "It's just not.  The Supreme Court of the United States, 115 years ago in a case called Jacobson vs. Massachusetts, very clearly stated that the government has something called 'police power' which allows it to protect the health and welfare of its people."

Basically, anything that is considered a public health threats, it is reasonable to require people to do this.

Edited July 6, 2020 by QuietRiot

[QuietRiot]

6 hours ago, major_merrick said:

That's why we absolutely must be proactive about our own health and liberty. 

But there are people NOT doing this, they are resisting this.

 Of those that are resisting being pro-active about their own health about making a stink about not being able to enter a business without a mask or have themselves go viral while they go ape-s*** at a Trader Joe's (or wherever) whilst being escorted out of the building, well...something needs to be done with those types.

[major_merrick]

15 hours ago, lana-banana said:

"According to settled principles, the police power of a State must be held to embrace, at least, such reasonable regulations established directly by legislative enactment as will protect the public health and the public safety.” (Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 1905)

A closer look at that case will reveal the logic behind the decision.  Citizens could still freely refuse the inoculation against the law, at the cost of a minimal one-time fine.  The fine was $5 in those days, or about $100 today.  Not even as bad as a minor speeding ticket.  Citizens could also opt out of the inoculation on religious grounds.  There was no absolute coercion going on, no "You will do this or else..."  Big difference from the way vaccines and public health issues are being handled today. 

**Please note the wording of your quote as well.  "established directly by legislative enactment."  The vast majority of COVID-related measures have been done by executive fiat.  Many of them are at local level, rather than state level, and are thus subject to other interesting developments. 

And then there's the logical comparison between smallpox (mortality rate of 20% or so depending on the outbreak) vs COVID (mortality rate of 1% among certain groups only).  One is a deadly plague!  The other is not.  People are acting like this thing is the end of the world simply due to lack of perspective.  Our ancestors wouldn't have stopped the whole country for this.  They would have recoiled in horror at the power grabs of the state and the economic damage.

Beyond that, we can claim at any time that our government has the tendency to overreach.  We have many, many instances throughout the nation's history of Supreme Court decisions that should not have happened....including in the medical sphere.  Buck vs Bell (1927) provided for forced sterilization, for example....and the opinions of the justices cited the Jacobsen case to justify their ruling!!!  So, when we the people believe that something intolerable has happened...it is our right and our duty to protest, refuse to comply, or take any necessary measures for our own security.  That is one of the founding principles of our nation, and today's anti-mask and anti-vaccine protestors are merely participating in our heritage of rebellion and noncompliance. 

15 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

But there are people NOT doing this, they are resisting this.

As I said, people should be doing things proactively for themselves.  That statement ASSUMES their right not to do so. 

As for businesses requiring customers to wear a mask...that's their right since it is private property, in just the same way as they have the right to prohibit firearms.  I also have the right to take my money to a place that lets me carry my gun and doesn't make me wear something silly and ineffective on my face just to make other folks feel better.

Edited July 7, 2020 by major_merrick

[gaius]

It's very odd Merrick that you're advocating for travel restrictions, not being allowed to go where you want to go, while complaining that putting a piece of cloth on your face when your indoors in public spaces is too much of burden on your liberty. 

Yeah it would have been nice if foreign travel had been more restricted, if New York had been forcibly quarantined, but none of our leaders, political or intellectual, had the will or the intelligence to do so. And they still don't. They can't even get testing right. It's like a three stooges skit that never ends. The one and only choice we can make that's within the realm of possibility is whether or not to force people to wear masks.

If you ignore the incompetent public health experts in the US, look at the science behind the virus and how it spreads, pay attention to much more intelligent experts from other parts of the world, it's a no brainier that people should be wearing masks. And it's not any significant violation of your rights. If you can't bring yourself to make that horrible sacrifice of pulling those two mask loops behind your ears you have absolutely nothing in common with the founding fathers, because you have no sense of civic responsibility.

 

[regine_phalange]

Everyone should wear a face covering, especially now that there are suspicions of the virus being airborne and hanging out in the air for long periods of time.

Face coverings protect other people if we are asymptomatic and speak, cough or sneeze around them. Respiratory droplets is another way that the virus is transmitted.

Please wear a face covering in closed spaces. This disease can make some people very very ill and it's not a good time to protest.

[Kitty Tantrum]

I'll be wearing a face covering when I go into most stores. Not because I think it's effective, which I don't... ESPECIALLY if it's airborne. If it's binding to particles small enough to be suspended in the air for any length of time and still be infectious, a cloth mask is going to do exactly nothing to protect you from that.

Even if we assume that masks ARE good prevention/protection against the more typical "droplet" vector, the mandates leave enough room for populations to move around and socialize, etc. without them, and the vast majority of people don't use them properly, that it's pretty much guaranteed to be more of a "feel good" measure than an effective way of halting the spread of disease.

This is the simple reality of humans: most behavior has its basis in FEELINGS instead of evidence. I've seen this time and again, where even the loudest "pro-maskers" have their things that they do that are much more high-risk than grocery shopping without a mask. They haven't even thought about these things critically - they do them because they FEEL GOOD about doing them. Many people wearing masks wear them out of shame or fear (FEELINGS) rather than the understanding of how it works as a protective device.

It's actually NOT SAFE to assume that you are "safer" because of widespread mask usage. All you have to do to understand and confirm this for yourself is to watch how the majority of people wearing masks actually behave. It's like the mask is some kind of talisman that will protect them and others, in spite of the fact that they go around touching it, touching their face, touching their eyes, reaching up under and scratching their nose, reaching up under to bite off a hangnail, etc. And of course all the ones who openly scratch their junk and/or butthole, and continue on their merry way without washing hands, are still doing that. For the vast majority of people I've seen, the mask might as well not even be there.

But I'll def. wear a mask to the store because I don't want any of the very few businesses I actually patronize to get hassled by the government or slapped with fines because of me. I don't even want to make the employees uncomfortable or anxious about it. These are folks who have been going out of their way to help me and make my life easier for years, it would be a totally dick move to bring my belligerence through their doors when they're not the ones making the mandates (none of the stores I go to strictly required masks until yesterday when the fines were implemented).

I think it's a VERY good time to protest, but the grocery store is not the place! Private businesses in general are not the place.

That's my two cents.

[CaliforniaGirl]

On 7/2/2020 at 1:04 PM, Kitty Tantrum said:

1. Not okay to acquire virus through natural spread.. this must be stopped.

BUT

2. Everyone better line up to acquire the virus as soon as it's available in a syringe.

🤡 🤡 🤡

Was this a meme somewhere? I'm sure the vax will be just like lab testing, with physical distancing and so on. And if vaccines caused illness schools would be overrun by polio and German measles. Correct?

Edited July 12, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[Kitty Tantrum]

Kitty understands very well how vaccines work - and as with the actual live/wild virus, it's not the healthy school-aged population you have to worry about. It's those who already have overtaxed or compromised immune systems, underlying conditions, etc. It's been standard practice for a long time to basically "quarantine" the vulnerable away from recently-vaxxed people. I've mentioned before: there was a big sign on the door going into the delivery/recovery area where I gave birth, in both hospitals, as well as in other areas of the hospital, forbidding entry to anybody vaccinated within the last two weeks.

Vaccine shedding is a very real thing. Even with current vaccines that have been in use for a long time. With a brand new vaccine that has been exempted from a lot of typical safety protocols, I def. would not be hanging out with grandma for a week or two after getting it.

[Ellener]

On 7/2/2020 at 8:34 AM, QuietRiot said:

Are you getting the same kind of flack in your communities?

I think there will be no TX protest now the President is wearing his snazzy Oval Office face-covering. But there's nothing like seeing your friends sick or dying or bereaved to focus people's empathy; it's becoming a symbol of I care so I'll wear whatever people's personal medical opinions.

[major_merrick]

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2020 at 1:09 PM, Kitty Tantrum said:

But I'll def. wear a mask to the store because I don't want any of the very few businesses I actually patronize to get hassled by the government or slapped with fines because of me. I don't even want to make the employees uncomfortable or anxious about it. These are folks who have been going out of their way to help me and make my life easier for years, it would be a totally dick move to bring my belligerence through their doors when they're not the ones making the mandates (none of the stores I go to strictly required masks until yesterday when the fines were implemented).

That's where you an I differ.  I refuse.  I don't care about making people comfortable.  Their problem, not mine.  Don't like it?  Stay 6ft+ away...I'm not there for the conversation anyhow.  I go in, get my stuff, get out.  Way more concerned with my shopping list and how damn much its gonna cost.

If people want to talk about it, I'll tell them my reasons politely.  They wanna get rude or insistent....well that's just a bad choice on their part.  I have no problem with businesses who post signs or whatever.  I'll go somewhere else with my money, or if it becomes required everywhere I will politely refuse to comply.  Its called "civil disobedience." 

Edited July 13, 2020 by major_merrick

[lana-banana]

It's not about "making people comfortable", it's about "keeping them alive". What, precisely, is the objection to preventing the spread of a dangerous disease?

[Ellener]

Civil disobedience is doing something unlawful which only risks your own freedom/wellbeing.

Where I live it's the businesses who get fined ( $1000 ) for not enforcing the face-covering order. 

It won't last forever, especially if we all do our bit.

 

 

 

[QuietRiot]

1 minute ago, Ellener said:

Civil disobedience is doing something unlawful which only risks your own freedom/wellbeing.

Where I live it's the businesses who get fined ( $1000 ) for not enforcing the face-covering order. 

It won't last forever, especially if we all do our bit.

 

 

 

Exactly, there was a very great and succinct Tom Hanks interview. He was talking about how pretty much everyone did their part for the war effort in WW II. Too bad Americans cannot be so equally as patriotic as to do something so simple.

We're a laughing stock to the rest of the world. Other COUNTRIES don't want us across their borders!

[Ellener]

The President looked very dignified in his! @QuietRiot

I do hope we're not in this situation for four years, but now it's happened we have to be strong and honorable. Hold up on the world stage.

 

[major_merrick]

31 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

It's not about "making people comfortable", it's about "keeping them alive". What, precisely, is the objection to preventing the spread of a dangerous disease?

I have stated my objections over and over, but some folks just can't absorb the information.  Which is why I'm pretty much in the mode of "I couldn't give two cents for what people think." 

Once people drink the government KoolAid, that's the only opinion they've got.  Whatever. 

 

[Ellener]

Masks reduce infection transmission by @65% here is the explanation last week from Dean Blumberg, chief of pediatric infectious diseases at UC Davis Children’s Hospital and his colleague William Ristenpart, professor of chemical engineering:

There are two primary methods of transmission, they said. The first is via droplets a carrier expels, which are about one-third the size of a human hair but still large enough that we can see them. Masks create an effective barrier against droplets.

“Everyone should wear a mask,” Blumberg said. “People who say, ‘I don’t believe masks work,’ are ignoring scientific evidence. It’s not a belief system. It’s like saying, ‘I don’t believe in gravity.’ 

“People who don’t wear a mask increase the risk of transmission to everyone, not just the people they come into contact with. It’s all the people those people will have contact with. You’re being an irresponsible member of the community if you’re not wearing a mask. It’s like double-dipping in the guacamole. You’re not being nice to others.”

The second major transmission method is via the aerosol particles we expel when we talk. Those are about 1/100th the size of a human hair and are more difficult to defend against. Social distancing and staying outdoors, where there is more air flow, are helpful, Blumberg and Ristenpart said.

“Studies in laboratory conditions now show the virus stays alive in aerosol form with a half-life on the scale of hours. It persists in the air,” Ristenpart said. “That’s why you want to be outdoors for any social situations if possible. The good air flow will disperse the virus. If you are indoors, think about opening the windows. You want as much fresh air as possible.”

This is why, he said, places like bars are particularly hazardous for aerosols, on top of the likelihood of minimal distancing. “The louder you speak, the more expiatory aerosols you put out,” he said.

That was what we found in Houston, when the bars re-opened, masks weren't mandatory then and the infection rate increased very quickly to what is now a hospital bed crisis situation.

 

[Angelle]

1 hour ago, major_merrick said:

I have stated my objections over and over, but some folks just can't absorb the information.  Which is why I'm pretty much in the mode of "I couldn't give two cents for what people think." 

Once people drink the government KoolAid, that's the only opinion they've got.  Whatever. 

 

Much like those who drink the conspiracy kool-aid. I'm sad that includes a few of my friends.

[Ellener]

It's been a difficult time for a lot of people. The knowledge has evolved over a number of stressful weeks but these are our US current CDC guidelines:

How to Protect Yourself & Others, Everyone Should

Wash your hands often

Avoid touching your eyes, nose, and mouth with unwashed hands.

Avoid close contact

Cover your mouth and nose with a cloth face cover when around others

Cover coughs and sneezes

Clean and disinfect

Monitor Your Health Daily

The detailed guidelines are on CDC website but that's the summary of the basics and it's becoming standard advice worldwide. 

 

 

[regine_phalange]

5 hours ago, lana-banana said:

It's not about "making people comfortable", it's about "keeping them alive". What, precisely, is the objection to preventing the spread of a dangerous disease?

They just don't understand how serious the situation is. I work closely with someone who during COVID has gotten a very grim second job... Her job is to go to suspected COVID patient houses and confirm that they are dead. Let's say that she has been very very busy for the past few months... 

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, regine_phalange said:

. Her job is to go to suspected COVID patient houses and confirm that they are dead. Let's say that she has been very very busy for the past few months... 

Yes and  it not just old people  dying alone.
A lot of people live alone.
The virus can cause delirium and confusion, so some are not actually aware how ill they are until they cant breathe... some are so ill they can't physically get up to seek help...
One of the nurses who died at 28 in the UK, went home to isolate with Covid - 19, found dead at home a few days later.

[QuietRiot]

10 hours ago, major_merrick said:

That's where you an I differ.  I refuse.  I don't care about making people comfortable.  Their problem, not mine.  Don't like it?  Stay 6ft+ away...I'm not there for the conversation anyhow.  I go in, get my stuff, get out.  Way more concerned with my shopping list and how damn much its gonna cost.

If people want to talk about it, I'll tell them my reasons politely.  They wanna get rude or insistent....well that's just a bad choice on their part.  I have no problem with businesses who post signs or whatever.  I'll go somewhere else with my money, or if it becomes required everywhere I will politely refuse to comply.  Its called "civil disobedience." 

You'll go somewhere else with your money? You must have your own garden where you grow your food...if no grocery store will take you if you refuse to wear a mask, then you'll starve. Unless you'll do all your shopping online, but with groceries, that'll be limited.

[NuevoYorko]

On 7/6/2020 at 6:29 PM, major_merrick said:

  I also have the right to take my money to a place that lets me carry my gun and doesn't make me wear something silly and ineffective on my face just to make other folks feel better.

 It's good that you live in a compound where you produce what you need to take care of yourselves.  There seems to be little necessity for you, your saliva particles and firearms to be of concern to the rest of  the population.   Win/win.