The argument of citing less deaths keep popping up

[Piddy]

9 hours ago, Kitty Tantrum said:

Every doctor I've seen recently has been THRILLED to see a "real person." Every time. And there's been quite a few, not just my regular doctor but the rotating PT/OT staff - plus every assistant, tech, etc.

Of course they require everyone to mask up, and do a temp check when you get there, and the seats are spaced out - but they're taking these measure because they are REQUIRED under threat of severe penalty. They are not worried about COVID-19. They joke about it. They roll their eyes about it.

There ARE people, even doctors and nurses, who are legitimately scared. And there are those who are legitimately overworked because they're in the (fortunate? unfortunate??) position of being one of the ones who works in a hospital that has taken on a lion's share of the current overall patient load -- rather than being one of the ones who got laid off, furloughed, hours cut, etc.

But the bulk of the folks I know in the healthcare industry seem to be right about where I am in my assessment (partly because I take my cues from them, given that they are the professionals in charge of MY health care at present). They understand that "confirmed cases" or "asymptomatic cases" actually mean VERY LITTLE, and they understand from watching how actual INFECTIONS (that is, an actual disease, the presence of symptoms), HOSPITALIZATIONS, and DEATHS are trending - that this virus is not very dangerous at all for the average person who is healthy and is not elderly.

And they know how to protect their elderly and infirm from contagions because they've been doing it throughout their careers (without the need for mass-masking and distancing requirements).

No one is joking about this.  I took my mother in law to the doctor for a back issue.  They required her to wait in the car and called when they were ready for her. 

 She needed to go to another building to get an x-ray and they told me I could not go into the waiting room with her even wearing a mask.  So the medical people I've encountered are taking this very seriously. 

The fact is the jury is still out on how much we know about this virus.  But we are learning more.  It's simply too early to know the long term effects.  This virus can infect the whole body and not just the lungs. 

It can affect kidneys for example and cause blood clots.  It can affect the cells that line blood vessels.  For many it can stay in the nose, but for some it can infect and overwhelm the whole body.  They'e seeing more and more people with lingering long term effects.  

To minimize this virus as no big deal and a joke is being either naive or stupid, maybe both.  I'll let you know my experience should I test positive myself.

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[QuietRiot]

58 minutes ago, Piddy said:

 No one is joking about this.  I took my mother in law to the doctor for a back issue.  They required her to wait in the car and called when they were ready for her. 

 She needed to go to another building to get an x-ray and they told me I could not go into the waiting room with her even wearing a mask.  So the medical people I've encountered are taking this very seriously. 

The fact is the jury is still out on how much we know about this virus.  But we are learning more.  It's simply too early to know the long term effects.  This virus can infect the whole body and not just the lungs. 

It can affect kidneys for example and cause blood clots.  It can affect the cells that line blood vessels.  For many it can stay in the nose, but for some it can infect and overwhelm the whole body.  They'e seeing more and more people with lingering long term effects.  

To minimize this virus as no big deal and a joke is being either naive or stupid, maybe both.  I'll let you know my experience should I test positive myself.

 

RIght, apparently TOM HANKS came out to tell everyone how he is now feeling the after effects MONTHS later. Sometimes you feel better...the symptoms go away...then later...it reels it's ugly head again. It all comes back.

The idea of following these mandates is to give medicine some time to figure it all out...but these whiney no-maskers are making a big stink about it. By the way, hosp. workers are running low on PPE.

Edited July 8, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Piddy]

26 minutes ago, QuietRiot said:

RIght, apparently TOM HANKS came out to tell everyone how he is now feeling the after effects MONTHS later. Sometimes you feel better...the symptoms go away...then later...it reels it's ugly head again. It all comes back.

The idea of following these mandates is to give medicine some time to figure it all out...but these whiney no-maskers are making a big stink about it.

Yes.  And there's stories from people I've seen interviewed.  Mara Gay is an editorial board member of the New York Times.  She's 33 years old and had a high enough oxygen level to recover at home.  But she was terribly sick for weeks and had a hard time breathing.

Then there's Dr. Joseph Flair a 42 year old infectious disease expert who got the virus and was in the hospital and on oxygen.  He fought to not go on a ventilator.  He recovered after weeks of being very sick.

Saw a doctor yesterday that was presented with a 20 year old man who died after an hour in the hospital.  He said he was dying as he came in the hospital.  

Also, Dr. Fauci is saying, "we're not in a good place" and we're "knee deep in the first wave."  Citing less deaths as an attempt to somehow minimize this could be a fools errand when it comes to this virus.

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Piddy

[BaileyB]

9 hours ago, Kitty Tantrum said:

Every doctor I've seen recently has been THRILLED to see a "real person." Every time. And there's been quite a few, not just my regular doctor but the rotating PT/OT staff - plus every assistant, tech, etc.

They understand that "confirmed cases" or "asymptomatic cases" actually mean VERY LITTLE, and they understand from watching how actual INFECTIONS (that is, an actual disease, the presence of symptoms), HOSPITALIZATIONS, and DEATHS are trending - that this virus is not very dangerous at all for the average person who is healthy and is not elderly.

Well, my doctor cancelled my physical and told me it would not be rebooked for two years. She did a phone call, and then decided to bring me in for something that needed to be done in person. She was wearing a face shield, gloves, and social distancing was well respected in the office.

I work in a health facility as a physiotherapist. We are ONLY bringing in children who CAN NOT be seen virtually. Whenever possible, services are provided online. Many of the kids we serve are high risk because of their medical conditions, and many are cared for by grandparents. As one family put it, “our village is at risk.” I can’t even begin to tell you how much this has changed the way and volume we are providing service. Parents now have to ring a doorbell to be let into the building by security. They have their temps taken and are screened at the door by nurses - same as staff. We have the ability to see some clients in person - in my community job we are being encouraged to see families outdoors. I have to self screen every day and call every family before the appointment to screen the family, and document that conversation on file. Again, we have to get manager approval to do these appointments because we are encouraged to provide services virtually whenever possible. 

All this - and yesterday we had seven days with NOT a single positive Covid infection reported in my province. There is virtually NO flu activity in my area - and still, people are being very vigilant. Workplaces and medical facilities are taking it very seriously. So, perhaps that is your experience - it is very different than my experience. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by BaileyB

[nospam99]

quietriot said: ''Listen dude, we can argue about this until we're blue in the face, but there is no one else in this thread that is on board with your anecdotal stuff. ''

I'M 'on board' with the 'anecdotal stuff'. FWIW, Johns Hopkins, which the world seems to treat as a Source of Authority, is just one step up from 'anecdotal stuff' because they don't actually count the numbers they post. They AGGREGATE reports from multiple sources, many of them governmental health agencies which have political agendas. Apples and oranges AND NOT VERIFIED. Are all those aggregated sources reporting the same 'fruit'? How many different tests are being used to report 'cases'? What proportion of what tests are being used within each source? What are the false positive and false negative characteristics of each diagnostic test? All the questions I just asked are subsumed by aggregation.

So I usually stay off this and similar threads because it is a political argument conducted with religious fervor. Clearly there are people on LS and in the world at large who are 'drinking the KoolAid'. But don't lose track of 'no one else in this thread that is on board', not because 'we' are not 'on board' but because it is useless to argue with 'believers' of 'the other' faith. You are not going to convince me of your OPINION and I doubt I will convince you of mine. Just don't take that to mean that there are not people who disagree with you.

[Piddy]

6 minutes ago, nospam99 said:

quietriot said: ''Listen dude, we can argue about this until we're blue in the face, but there is no one else in this thread that is on board with your anecdotal stuff. ''

I'M 'on board' with the 'anecdotal stuff'. FWIW, Johns Hopkins, which the world seems to treat as a Source of Authority, is just one step up from 'anecdotal stuff' because they don't actually count the numbers they post. They AGGREGATE reports from multiple sources, many of them governmental health agencies which have political agendas. Apples and oranges AND NOT VERIFIED. Are all those aggregated sources reporting the same 'fruit'? How many different tests are being used to report 'cases'? What proportion of what tests are being used within each source? What are the false positive and false negative characteristics of each diagnostic test? All the questions I just asked are subsumed by aggregation.

So I usually stay off this and similar threads because it is a political argument conducted with religious fervor. Clearly there are people on LS and in the world at large who are 'drinking the KoolAid'. But don't lose track of 'no one else in this thread that is on board', not because 'we' are not 'on board' but because it is useless to argue with 'believers' of 'the other' faith. You are not going to convince me of your OPINION and I doubt I will convince you of mine. Just don't take that to mean that there are not people who disagree with you.

Just what are you not on board with?  That Covid-19 is not a highly infectious disease (close to 12 million infected) that makes many people sick and has killed hundreds of thousands of people worldwide?

[nospam99]

^^^ I'm onboard with 'infectious' (NOT 'highly), makes people sick, and has killed thousands (NOT 'hundreds of'). I could nitpick lots of stuff, in particular the impact in the US of the highly political CDC Alert #2 and the financial incentives for hospitals to inflate reported numbers. But that would just lead to an endless argument about OPINIONS that will not change.

[Piddy]

13 minutes ago, nospam99 said:

^^^ I'm onboard with 'infectious' (NOT 'highly), makes people sick, and has killed thousands (NOT 'hundreds of'). I could nitpick lots of stuff, in particular the impact in the US of the highly political CDC Alert #2 and the financial incentives for hospitals to inflate reported numbers. But that would just lead to an endless argument about OPINIONS that will not change.

Yup.  I have zero interest in conspiracy theories.  And it's killed well over 500,000 people worldwide.  I think it's actually over 547,000 deaths.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Piddy

[nospam99]

^^^ Just checked > current Johns Hopkins death count is 539,057. So what? I've already pointed out that I regard the JHU numbers as invalid. The fact that they are aggregates of reports from multiple sources (and that JHU site does not provide a function to quickly drill for the detailed components of that total) is sufficient reason to dismiss their validity (IMHO of course).

[nittygritty]

2 hours ago, Piddy said:

Yup.  I have zero interest in conspiracy theories.  And it's killed well over 500,000 people worldwide.  I think it's actually over 547,000 deaths.

Compared to Worldwide deaths of over 7 million for tobacco use and over 3 million deaths for alcohol use it still seems fairly low. Because tobacco and alcohol use are totally preventable. Yet neither products are illegal. 

According to WHO, In 2016, 15.2 million deaths were caused by Ischaemic heart disease and Stroke and they were also the leading cause of worldwide deaths for the previous 15 years. Why haven’t they come up with a cure yet??? Why isn’t there mass hysteria about this??? Free testing for all and nobody should have to work or leave their homes anymore unless it’s considered “essential”.

Edited July 8, 2020 by nittygritty

[Piddy]

11 minutes ago, nittygritty said:

Compared to Worldwide deaths of over 7 million for tobacco use and over 3 million deaths for alcohol use it still seems fairly low. Because tobacco and alcohol use are totally preventable. Yet neither products are illegal. 

According to WHO, In 2016, 15.2 million deaths were caused by Ischaemic heart disease and Stroke and they were also the leading cause of worldwide deaths for the previous 15 years. Why haven’t they come up with a cure yet??? Why isn’t there mass hysteria about this??? Free testing for all and nobody should have to work or leave their homes anymore unless it’s considered “essential”.

Oh I don't know, maybe because none of those ailments are contagious. 🙄  

[nittygritty]

17 minutes ago, Piddy said:

Oh I don't know, maybe because none of those ailments are contagious. 🙄  

Second hand smoke isn’t contagious? Getting killed by a drunk driver isn’t contagious? Sure it is. And totally preventable. People want to make it illegal to not wear a face mask in public but keep alcohol and tobacco products legal. And further want to legalize marijuana cuz it’s so healthy for people, lol. I haven’t seen any homeless people or panhandlers with their face masks on yet. I guess they haven’t got the memo yet. Are they arresting any of them yet for leaving needles or taking a dump outside ? Or is that considered okay during a “pandemic”? Along with rioting, vandalizing, destroying property and looting as long it’s called a “protest”.

Edited July 8, 2020 by nittygritty

[lana-banana]

19 hours ago, Art_Critic said:

How many of those ICU beds being used are covid-19 related ?

 

Wasn't able to find specific answers, but leading in the Texas Tribune today:

"An increase in people dying at home suggests coronavirus deaths in Houston may be higher than reported"

"In Houston, one of the nation's fastest-growing coronavirus hot spots, more residents are dying before they can make it to a hospital. Medical examiner data shows that an increasing number of these deaths are the result of COVID-19." Authors are Charles Ornstein and Mike Hixenbaugh.

[lana-banana]

1 hour ago, nittygritty said:

Second hand smoke isn’t contagious? Getting killed by a drunk driver isn’t contagious? Sure it is. And totally preventable. People want to make it illegal to not wear a face mask in public but keep alcohol and tobacco products legal. And further want to legalize marijuana cuz it’s so healthy for people, lol. I haven’t seen any homeless people or panhandlers with their face masks on yet. I guess they haven’t got the memo yet. Are they arresting any of them yet for leaving needles or taking a dump outside ? Or is that considered okay during a “pandemic”? Along with rioting, vandalizing, destroying property and looting as long it’s called a “protest”.

I have no idea what you're talking about, but all of the people I see experiencing homelessness are wearing masks. 

[nittygritty]

45 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

I have no idea what you're talking about, but all of the people I see experiencing homelessness are wearing masks. 

So you are in favor of arresting them if they don’t?

Edited July 8, 2020 by nittygritty

[BaileyB]

16 minutes ago, nittygritty said:

So you are in favor of arresting them if they don’t?

There wouldn’t be a need if people would take some responsibility to protect their own health and the lives of others by taking basic measures to prevent the spread of infection. We are talking about wearing a face mask when out in public - it’s not a great sacrifice, it’s is a reasonable thing to do given the circumstance. Why are we even having to debate something that seems to be such a simple, common sense thing to do - something that could save your life or the lives of others. It seems to me to be the very least that anyone could do...

But, if you want to debate then what about fines? There are other ways to potential enforce a public health order. 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by BaileyB

[lana-banana]

20 minutes ago, nittygritty said:

So you are in favor of arresting them if they don’t?

Of course not. Give people masks to wear. If they're causing a fuss or threatening others, like we've seen on so many videos, fine them. But of course I don't support harming the most vulnerable.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, lana-banana said:

Wasn't able to find specific answers, but leading in the Texas Tribune today:

"An increase in people dying at home suggests coronavirus deaths in Houston may be higher than reported"

"In Houston, one of the nation's fastest-growing coronavirus hot spots, more residents are dying before they can make it to a hospital. Medical examiner data shows that an increasing number of these deaths are the result of COVID-19." Authors are Charles Ornstein and Mike Hixenbaugh.

Honestly, we're just all hunkered down as much as possible, trying to avoid the infection. We're hoping that the latest wave of infection can be contained.

I don't hate on anyone, the homeless? are despised in America now? Shame on you! for no compassion.

If you're a Christian, read Matthew 25....

I'm not going to expose anyone if I can just stay home for now, which I can. I don't think my life is any more important or special than anyone else's.

We've been through a lot in Houston, we've learned how to be a community. We went out in boats, we wrote checks, we 'saved' one another. That was Harvey, and we'll get through this latest trouble the same way. 

 

 

 

 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, lana-banana said:

Give people masks to wear.

In my community- need a mask, just ask....

[nittygritty]

29 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

There wouldn’t be a need if people would take some responsibility to protect their own health and the lives of others by taking basic measures to prevent the spread of infection. We are talking about wearing a face mask when out in public - it’s not a great sacrifice, it’s is a reasonable thing to do given the circumstance. Why are we even having to debate something that seems to be such a simple, common sense thing to do - something that could save your life or the lives of others. It seems to me to be the very least that anyone could do...

But, if you want to debate then what about fines? There are other ways to potential enforce a public health order. 

 

People already don’t take “some responsibility to protect their own health or the lives of others”. They smoke, they drink, they do drugs, they over eat but “Hey, let’s start arresting people for not wearing a face mask in public”??? You want to charge people with a crime for not wearing a face mask in public and make them pay a fine??? Who cares if they are poor? Who cares if they are missing an ear to hold up a face mask or have other mental, physical or health conditions that prevent them from wearing a face mask? It’s really up to every individual to decide for themselves based on recommendations but who is going to be in charge of enforcing it?  The newly formed face mask police?

Edited July 8, 2020 by nittygritty

[Angelle]

3 hours ago, nittygritty said:

Compared to Worldwide deaths of over 7 million for tobacco use and over 3 million deaths for alcohol use it still seems fairly low. Because tobacco and alcohol use are totally preventable. Yet neither products are illegal. 

According to WHO, In 2016, 15.2 million deaths were caused by Ischaemic heart disease and Stroke and they were also the leading cause of worldwide deaths for the previous 15 years. Why haven’t they come up with a cure yet??? Why isn’t there mass hysteria about this??? Free testing for all and nobody should have to work or leave their homes anymore unless it’s considered “essential”.

I can't remember if I mentioned this yesterday, in response to a post like this: I recall when some tried to get rid of drinks like "Big Gulps" and people railed against it. My mother was a smoker, who ended up buying her own tobacco, and making her own cigarettes, after taxes were raised on them everywhere. Some citizens didn't like their habits being policed, it was their health, their lives. Been there, done that, now we're dealing with Covid, and similar complaints from some, not all. 

I googled, and it was NYC trying to ban sugary drinks. One link featured a picture of an eight year old, sipping a big gulp, whilst protesting a soda ban.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Angelle

[BaileyB]

7 minutes ago, nittygritty said:

Who cares if they are missing an ear to hold up a face mask or have other mental, physical or health conditions that prevent them from wearing a face mask? 

Seriously? Again, not sure what your argument is but are you really going to argue that we shouldn’t require people to wear masks because they may be missing an ear? It’s a face mask. I wore one this morning. I had a community visit for work and the mother, her daughter, and my other coworkers were all wearing masks when I arrived. It was an outdoor visit, but I put my mask on because that was clearly what they wanted. It was no great discomfort. No inconvenience. I wanted the other people I was meeting to feel safe and comfortable. The vast majority of people should have no problem putting a mask on... particularly if it will save a life. But, if you want to catastrophize and argue every possible exception, have at it. 

Back on topic, I find it really sad that they are seeing an increase in people dying at home. I think I remember reading the same was true during the height of the pandemic in New York. It’s so sad that people are saying before they get to hospital, or for some - perhaps even choosing to die at home. 😢

[Angelle]

17 hours ago, Kitty Tantrum said:

Every doctor I've seen recently has been THRILLED to see a "real person." Every time. And there's been quite a few, not just my regular doctor but the rotating PT/OT staff - plus every assistant, tech, etc.

Of course they require everyone to mask up, and do a temp check when you get there, and the seats are spaced out - but they're taking these measure because they are REQUIRED under threat of severe penalty. They are not worried about COVID-19. They joke about it. They roll their eyes about it.

There ARE people, even doctors and nurses, who are legitimately scared. And there are those who are legitimately overworked because they're in the (fortunate? unfortunate??) position of being one of the ones who works in a hospital that has taken on a lion's share of the current overall patient load -- rather than being one of the ones who got laid off, furloughed, hours cut, etc.

But the bulk of the folks I know in the healthcare industry seem to be right about where I am in my assessment (partly because I take my cues from them, given that they are the professionals in charge of MY health care at present). They understand that "confirmed cases" or "asymptomatic cases" actually mean VERY LITTLE, and they understand from watching how actual INFECTIONS (that is, an actual disease, the presence of symptoms), HOSPITALIZATIONS, and DEATHS are trending - that this virus is not very dangerous at all for the average person who is healthy and is not elderly.

And they know how to protect their elderly and infirm from contagions because they've been doing it throughout their careers (without the need for mass-masking and distancing requirements).

It sounds like my vet takes it more seriously than the healthcare workers you know.

The whole point of being careful, even if you're asymptomatic, is that you're still in danger of spreading it to others. 

[nittygritty]

12 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Seriously? Again, not sure what your argument is but are you really going to argue that we shouldn’t require people to wear masks because they may be missing an ear? It’s a face mask. I wore one this morning. I had a community visit for work and the mother, her daughter, and my other coworkers were all wearing masks when I arrived. It was an outdoor visit, but I put my mask on because that was clearly what they wanted. It was no great discomfort. No inconvenience. I wanted the other people I was meeting to feel safe and comfortable. The vast majority of people should have no problem putting a mask on... particularly if it will save a life. But, if you want to catastrophize and argue every possible exception, have at it. 

Back on topic, I find it really sad that they are seeing an increase in people dying at home. I think I remember reading the same was true during the height of the pandemic in New York. It’s so sad that people are saying before they get to hospital, or for some - perhaps even choosing to die at home. 😢

It’s really none of my business why someone else doesn’t wear a face mask out in public. Neither is it yours or anyone else’s. There are all kinds of reasons that people don’t. It should not be a crime not to. They should not have to pay a fine or do jail time for not wearing a mask. That is my argument. 
 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by nittygritty

[BaileyB]

2 minutes ago, Angelle said:

I can't remember if I mentioned this yesterday, in response to a post like this: I recall when some tried to get rid of drinks like "Big Gulps" and people railed against it. My mother was a smoker, who ended up buying her own tobacco, and making her own cigarettes, after taxes were raised on them everywhere. Some citizens didn't like their habits being policed, it was their health, their lives.

In my mind, there is a difference between an individual choice that affects the health and life of the individual vs a threat to public health/pandemic (infectious virus with no known treatment or vaccine). I don’t want anyone to tell me that I can’t drink Big Gulps or eat chocolate or whatever else, but in that case it is only my health that is affected if I chose to overindulge (aside from the cost to the health care system, given we have public health care).

I read a comment by Dr. Bonnie Henry (BC) that I thought was interesting. She had the ability to use her authority to impose various public health orders but she said that she was trying to avoid “mandating” anything. It was her belief that people would be more compliant if restrictive rules and punishments were NOT put in place. Her exact quote was something like “If you give the people what they need - information, financial assistance, such that they can make the right decision... they will make the right decision and do what is required.” And, that’s pretty much what happened. Not without it’s bumps, but BC got their cases under control quickly because people complied with the public health recommendations...