The argument of citing less deaths keep popping up

[Haydn]

The US could have locked down and been in far better shape than now. But leadership failed you. As for Europe losing billions from US tourists, the Chinese, more than make up for that. UK leadership failed too, which is why we are also on quite a few lists when it comes to visiting countries.

But freedom eh? 

[Woggle]

With proper leadership this could have been not much worse than the Ebola scare from a few years ago.

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, clia said:

It hasn't affected the economy or the general population in Canada, Australia, NZ, and parts of Europe?  I'm surprised to hear that.  I don't know all the reopening details of what is going on in the world, but I was under the impression that large scale events like sports, concerts, theater, etc. aren't happening, or if they are, it is at much lower capacity (that probably isn't financially sustainable for long).  That seems like a pretty big part of the economy.  Seems like the travel industry has also been hit pretty hard -- airlines, cruise, hotels, etc.    

It's not feasible to lock everyone in the USA in their homes for months on end.  Not only due to the economy, but from a logistics perspective, and because people just wouldn't do it.  

No, our economy has suffered for all these reasons. But ask any person on the street, and most will say they that we had no other option. Our government has provided financial support for those people and industries who have been most affected. There is much debate about this, as we will be paying for this for many years to come... 

But, my daily life hasn’t changed much with the exception of the fact that I can’t travel or attend a concert. A small sacrifice I have no problem making if it will save lives. 

Here, we shut down for one month, then started a gradual reopening process. Our economy is recovering, while the US economy will take a much longer time to get back on track. People are happy - gathering with family and friends again, kids are back in sports, restaurant sector is recovering, schools will be reopening this fall... polls say that people are less anxious and the mental health of Canadians is improving. It will be a long time before the US can say that, unfortunately.

Edited July 13, 2020 by BaileyB

[clia]

21 minutes ago, Haydn said:

The US could have locked down and been in far better shape than now. But leadership failed you. As for Europe losing billions from US tourists, the Chinese, more than make up for that. UK leadership failed too, which is why we are also on quite a few lists when it comes to visiting countries.

But freedom eh? 

I don't believe Trump even has the authority to issue a nationwide lockdown order.  Certainly he could've provided guidelines and advisory opinions, but it is largely up to the governors and states how they want to handle something like this within their state.  (As it should be -- what's right for New York isn't necessarily right for South Dakota.)  Even if Trump had done so, it's not at all clear to me that every Governor in the US would've followed the advice or listened to him.  (And IMO, they certainly wouldn't have listened to him if he had said to lockdown in January or February, despite what they say now with the benefit of hindsight.)  Many of the states that are going through a surge right now had some kind of a shelter in place order for some period of time in March/April.  Many of those states had relatively flat, low numbers up until about the first week in June.  And again, we do have states that seem to be doing relatively fine, despite reopening.

[Haydn]

4 minutes ago, clia said:

I don't believe Trump even has the authority to issue a nationwide lockdown order.  Certainly he could've provided guidelines and advisory opinions, but it is largely up to the governors and states how they want to handle something like this within their state.  (As it should be -- what's right for New York isn't necessarily right for South Dakota.)  Even if Trump had done so, it's not at all clear to me that every Governor in the US would've followed the advice or listened to him.  (And IMO, they certainly wouldn't have listened to him if he had said to lockdown in January or February, despite what they say now with the benefit of hindsight.)  Many of the states that are going through a surge right now had some kind of a shelter in place order for some period of time in March/April.  Many of those states had relatively flat, low numbers up until about the first week in June.  And again, we do have states that seem to be doing relatively fine, despite reopening.

Yes but he should have said it. He`s the President. If state leaders hadn`t followed it, maybe people would have....

[clia]

4 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

But, my daily life hasn’t changed much with the exception of the fact that I can’t travel or attend a concert. A small sacrifice to make if it will save lives. 

At this point, same here.  

Quote

Here, we shut down for one month, then started a gradual reopening process.

In the state that I'm in, we were under shelter in place from March 23 - June 1.  Restaurants were closed from March 15 - June 8.  As I'm sure you can imagine, people were getting cabin fever.  At the month mark, most people were still fairly on board with the shelter in place, so I'll take your shut down over mine.  To give you an idea, we had about 300 cases in my state when the shelter in place went into effect and less than 100 when restaurants were ordered closed, so it wasn't as though things seemed out of control.  My state was one of the worst hit in March/April, and we peaked within two weeks of the shelter in place.  Now that we are reopening, we are seeing a slight bump again.  It remains to be seen how big it will be.

Quote

Our economy is recovering, while the US economy will take a much longer time to get back on track. People are happy - gathering with family and friends again, kids are back in sports, restaurant sector is recovering... polls say that people are less anxious and the mental health of Canadians is improving. It will be a long time before the US can say that, unfortunately.

People in the US are happy, too --- at least those who have been able to resume some semblance of normalcy to their lives.  People are taking vacations, gathering with family and friends, kids are playing sports and in daycare in certain parts of the country, restaurants are reopening, people are able to get back to work, etc.  We have some parts of the country that are surging right now, but the US is a big place.

[clia]

15 minutes ago, Haydn said:

Yes but he should have said it. He`s the President. If state leaders hadn`t followed it, maybe people would have....

You'll probably find this impossible to believe, but the White House Task force did release guidelines back in March, encouraging people to shelter in, social distance, work from home, avoid large gatheriings, discretionary travel, eating out, going to bars, etc.  And Trump discussed these guidelines at a number of the daily briefings he did throughout March and April.   

[Haydn]

3 minutes ago, clia said:

You'll probably find this impossible to believe, but the White House Task force did release guidelines back in March, encouraging people to shelter in, social distance, work from home, avoid large gatheriings, discretionary travel, eating out, going to bars, etc.  And Trump discussed these guidelines at a number of the daily briefings he did throughout March and April.   

The President seemed to undermine the Task force at every opportunity. Yes i watched him say it will all be over by April etc... So i don`t find it impossible to believe at all, just he didn`t.

[clia]

1 minute ago, Haydn said:

The President seemed to undermine the Task force at every opportunity. Yes i watched him say it will all be over by April etc... So i don`t find it impossible to believe at all, just he didn`t.

Yeah, he was too optimistic and proved to be totally wrong.  But I watched a number of his briefings, and saw him encouraging people to follow the guidelines.  So I don't know.  

[Haydn]

1 hour ago, clia said:

Yeah, he was too optimistic and proved to be totally wrong.  But I watched a number of his briefings, and saw him encouraging people to follow the guidelines.  So I don't know.  

He had a rally, wore no mask, Mike Pence, ditto.  I don`t doubt your belief in him. It`s just so clearly wrong. Florida 15000 cases today. The President should be leading in order to protect people. Where is the harm in wearing a mask? It`s certainly not socialist. Just common sense, surely?

Edited July 13, 2020 by Haydn

[sothereiwas]

Why are we having a political discussion outside the political forums? Is this OK now?

[clia]

1 minute ago, Haydn said:

He had a rally, wore no mask, Mike Pence, ditto.  I don`t doubt your belief in him. It`s just so clearly wrong. Florida 15000 cases today. The President should be leading in order to protect people. Where is the harm in wearing a mask? It`s certainly not socialist. Just common sense, surely?

My belief in him?

Haydn, I think he did a terrible job at leadership.  I'm just saying that he was encouraging people to follow the guidelines back in March and April during at least some of his task force press conferences.  I know this because I saw him doing it.  The mask thing is something else entirely and came later.  No one in the US (or even WHO) was encouraging the use of masks in March and for most of April.  In fact, we were being told that masks didn't help.  Obviously that messaging has changed drastically.   

[Haydn]

3 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Why are we having a political discussion outside the political forums? Is this OK now?

For you, not. But i am writing to Clia.

[Angelle]

3 hours ago, Woggle said:

With proper leadership this could have been not much worse than the Ebola scare from a few years ago.

Yep. I remember only being slightly worried. 

3 hours ago, clia said:

You'll probably find this impossible to believe, but the White House Task force did release guidelines back in March, encouraging people to shelter in, social distance, work from home, avoid large gatheriings, discretionary travel, eating out, going to bars, etc.  And Trump discussed these guidelines at a number of the daily briefings he did throughout March and April.   

I remember this, but things turned around, and I can only talk about that in another forum. 

I was pissed when we were told for weeks that we shouldn't be wearing masks, only for them to say that everyone should be wearing them. I had a panic attack when, overnight, the social media shaming switched from shaming people for wearing them, to those who weren't wearing them. A lot of us couldn't get them right away. We have a local woman who has started sewing like mad again, thanks to our county now making masks mandatory. People in my local groups are arguing, and I'm pissed that things are getting worse here. Someone said that Target isn't enforcing the mask rule - I don't know if they don't want to lose customers, or if they're afraid they will be attacked by those who don't want to wear them. Probably both.

[sothereiwas]

32 minutes ago, Angelle said:

I was pissed when we were told for weeks that we shouldn't be wearing masks, only for them to say that everyone should be wearing them. I had a panic attack when, overnight, the social media shaming switched from shaming people for wearing them, to those who weren't wearing them.

Yes, that was deeply irritating. 

[Weezy1973]

43 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Yes, that was deeply irritating. 

I’m not an expert, but I believe initially staying at home and social distancing when it was necessary to go out was the primary method to try to contain the virus. The fear was that if people thought masks were just as effective they might relax and expand their bubble and go out more than what was safe. 
 

Now that many jurisdictions have lifted stay at home restrictions, using a mask has been recommended to reduce the risk of spread. It’s not as effective as staying at home, but it’s better than not wearing a mask.
 

That might account for the mixed messaging. 

[Angelle]

13 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

I’m not an expert, but I believe initially staying at home and social distancing when it was necessary to go out was the primary method to try to contain the virus. The fear was that if people thought masks were just as effective they might relax and expand their bubble and go out more than what was safe. 
 

Now that many jurisdictions have lifted stay at home restrictions, using a mask has been recommended to reduce the risk of spread. It’s not as effective as staying at home, but it’s better than not wearing a mask.
 

That might account for the mixed messaging. 

I meant back in April.  We ordered masks, and they arrived a week later. I carry masks around with me, in my backpack, so that I know I always have one. Even if some people think they don't work well, it's better than nothing. 

[sothereiwas]

15 minutes ago, Angelle said:

We ordered masks, and they arrived a week later.

I had a bunch of 3M N95 disposable masks in the workshop, so I figured "well, if we want them, we're set" .... then the N95 for the proletariat shaming campaign got rolling and I suddenly didn't want to raise a ruckus by wearing "the wrong mask", so I went out wearing my other, heavy duty painter's mask (also N95 rated ...) instead. Goofy looking, but at least the PC cops wouldn't blink much. Now we've been able to get a few 100 packs of the surgical masks. It's all for show really, no one here is infected statistically speaking but whatever. 

[Angelle]

2 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

I had a bunch of 3M N95 disposable masks in the workshop, so I figured "well, if we want them, we're set" .... then the N95 for the proletariat shaming campaign got rolling and I suddenly didn't want to raise a ruckus by wearing "the wrong mask", so I went out wearing my other, heavy duty painter's mask (also N95 rated ...) instead. Goofy looking, but at least the PC cops wouldn't blink much. Now we've been able to get a few 100 packs of the surgical masks. It's all for show really, no one here is infected statistically speaking but whatever. 

Our numbers are increasing, and a friend of mine just said goodbye to her grandmother, over Zoom. She wasn't talking back, she's dying right now (in California, dying from Covid). I'm in Ohio, and we were doing really well. Not anymore. 

[Angelle]

13 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

I remember this all too well. Dr. Fauci said we shouldn't be wearing masks, and WHO said we shouldn't be wearing masks. At the onset of the epidemic, I was following everything, learning everything I could because our business is being affected greatly by all of this and I needed to know what to expect. Like a complete fool, I trusted what our disease experts said and when everyone asked me, I said not to wear masks. This is why I still don't trust these douchebags. 

I'm fine with masks, I just didn't like the short notice. I can't say more, because what I want to say belongs in the political forum. 

[nittygritty]

On 7/11/2020 at 8:18 AM, d0nnivain said:

What 2 consenting people do is vastly different then how one behaves in public.  Guess what having sex in public in full view of others IS illegal so your analogy is off. 

A mask protects others.  I shouldn't be limited in my ability to go to church, to the market, or to work if the person can't work from home, just because other people want to be reckless.  

 

I want to be encouraged by the declining death numbers.  I hope that means this thing isn't quite as lethal.  It could be that medical science is just keeping people alive longer  

It isn’t illegal to hold hands, hug or even kiss in public. Nor should it be. Same with trying to make it a crime to not wear a face mask in public. That’s huge government overreach. People are still doing all kinds of things that spread a virus. With or without a mask on. In public and in private. Nobody got elected King in the US including the Mayors and Governors that are mandating that face masks be worn in public. They should be giving people free face masks to wear and recommending that they do it but beyond that there is no way to control it. And they are putting people at risk of being assaulted or even worse for having to try to enforce ridiculous laws.  

[amaysngrace]

Now the Chinese are studying the next swine flu, saying it can spread to other mammals.  I’ve had enough with this Made in China BS already.

[Ellener]

21 hours ago, clia said:

is it better to eliminate it from your country in the beginning with hard lockdowns and end up forcing yourself into an isolated position from the rest of the world, or to  let it burn through your population at the outset and just get through it?  It just seems inevitable.          

There is a certain inevitability to a pandemic spreading across a population and coming and going in waves, yes, the idea with infection control measures like lockdown is that by limiting the spread to some extent medical facilities and infrastructure are not immediately overwhelmed ( as happened in New York this Spring ) and as many lives as possible can be preserved.

 

[Ellener]

8 hours ago, enigma32 said:

I remember this all too well. Dr. Fauci said we shouldn't be wearing masks, and WHO said we shouldn't be wearing masks. At the onset of the epidemic, I was following everything, learning everything I could because our business is being affected greatly by all of this and I needed to know what to expect. Like a complete fool, I trusted what our disease experts said and when everyone asked me, I said not to wear masks. This is why I still don't trust 

There is a distinction become clear since this pandemic between the one-use sterile medical equipment PPE worn by doctors and nurses to protect themselves and patients and prevent cross-contamination, and the washable face-coverings we are now being universally asked to wear around the world to act as a barrier and prevent our speech/coughing/sneezing propelling infection.

So many people weighed in on a basic yes or no response too soon it was confusing, it's taken some weeks to come to consensus and 'best practice'.

[basil67]

On 7/14/2020 at 12:15 AM, clia said:

It hasn't affected the economy or the general population in Canada, Australia, NZ, and parts of Europe?  I'm surprised to hear that.  I don't know all the reopening details of what is going on in the world, but I was under the impression that large scale events like sports, concerts, theater, etc. aren't happening, or if they are, it is at much lower capacity (that probably isn't financially sustainable for long).  That seems like a pretty big part of the economy.  Seems like the travel industry has also been hit pretty hard -- airlines, cruise, hotels, etc.    

Yes, it's affected the economy here in Australia.   It's going to take years to recover.   And you're right about large scale events being curtailed or held with social distancing.   Our travel industry is also hard hit - I live under a flight path and it's been so quiet.  

But I was reading a couple of days ago that Sweden's economy has been hit hard too and they didn't lock down at all.  Some of it was related to them not being able to export and lack of consumer confidence.   https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2020/06/08/sweden-didnt-lock-down-but-economy-to-plunge-anyway.html

Seems to me that our economies are damned if we do and damned if we don't

On 7/14/2020 at 12:15 AM, clia said:

I don't blame any country for wanting to keep the US out right now.  But are they going to keep the US out forever?  (Maybe?  I doubt it.  I read Europe is losing billions from lack of US tourists.)  And honestly, I see a lot of other countries still reporting hundreds and thousands of new cases each day -- all you need is one case under the right circumstances and boom.  It just doesn't seem sustainable to me, but that's just my opinion.   

For the record, with the exception of NZ, Australia is locking all countries out.  Not just the US.  Even our expats are on a long waiting list to return and then face mandatory quarantine in a guarded hotel for two weeks .  Apparently there have been some returned expats who refused COVID testing while in quarantine and last I heard, the government was debating whether to make it mandatory if you want to return or to extend the quarantine period for those who refuse.

While other countries are allowing us entry, we aren't travelling.   Firstly because there are few planes flying and second because to return, we'd have to do quarantine like the expats above.

On 7/14/2020 at 12:15 AM, clia said:

It's not feasible to lock everyone in the USA in their homes for months on end.  Not only due to the economy, but from a logistics perspective, and because people just wouldn't do it.  Most people need social interaction, to be able to see their friends and family, to be able to work so they can pay their bills, buy food, attend school, etc.          

We'll have to see the numbers of excess deaths for 2020, I guess.  I'm also very concerned about the number of deaths resulting directly from the lockdowns -- suicide, people not getting vaccinations or going to the doctor because they are afraid of getting coronavirus, lack of preventive care due to fear of coronavirus, etc.  I feel like the latter is going to be the bigger number, to be honest.  But I guess we'll find out.     

With the numbers the US is getting, I don't think it's feasible to lock everyone down now.  That horse has bolted.  There are so many people infected that it would be impossible to do contact tracing for each and every person who tests positive.   And even if they were to try to lock you down, from what I read on LS, I get the feeling that there would be far too many people who would refuse anyway.  The only way that a lock down can work is if everyone is on the same team working for the same result.    And even then Australia hashed up what had been a very effective quarantine up by opening up again a bit too soon and Victoria making a mess of quarantine.

"I guess we'll find out" is about the only approach which I think is correct. I'm yet to see any approach which doesn't have both pros and cons.  Mistakes will happen. Information will changes as we learn more. 

I guess we'll find out.