The argument of citing less deaths keep popping up

[NuevoYorko]

42 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

Fauci first said we should not be wearing masks. Later he admitted that he lied about that in order to preserve supplies since he feared there would be a shortage. 

That's a shame.   I'm sure you are well aware that he didn't just make up this "lie" on his own and decide to spread it around.  There is a complicated convergence of many factions that resulted in what you refer to as his "lie."  

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/outdated-fauci-video-on-face-masks-shared-out-of-context/

There has been a massive avalanche of lies from the administration (of which Fauci is, in fact, a part) about all aspects of the coronavirus.  Are you interested in any of them?

[NuevoYorko]

On 7/13/2020 at 5:01 AM, clia said:

 

So, I just wonder -- is it better to eliminate it from your country in the beginning with hard lockdowns and end up forcing yourself into an isolated position from the rest of the world, or to  let it burn through your population at the outset and just get through it?  It just seems inevitable.          

What's better is to eliminate it from a country with lockdowns, testing, tracking.  The countries that have done that are getting back to life.  

Countries like the one I live in (USA) and Brazil, OTOH, which are happy to let it "burn through" the population and kill as many as possible, quickly, are the countries that are going to be in the "isolated position."  We can just stay here,  burning away,  going to Disney World and enjoying our economy.  

 

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

On 7/13/2020 at 9:07 AM, clia said:

I don't believe Trump even has the authority to issue a nationwide lockdown order.  Certainly he could've provided guidelines and advisory opinions, but it is largely up to the governors and states how they want to handle something like this within their state.  (As it should be -- what's right for New York isn't necessarily right for South Dakota.)  Even if Trump had done so, it's not at all clear to me that every Governor in the US would've followed the advice or listened to him.  (And IMO, they certainly wouldn't have listened to him if he had said to lockdown in January or February, despite what they say now with the benefit of hindsight.)  Many of the states that are going through a surge right now had some kind of a shelter in place order for some period of time in March/April.  Many of those states had relatively flat, low numbers up until about the first week in June.  And again, we do have states that seem to be doing relatively fine, despite reopening.

With the president 's support rather than him refusing to wear a mask, claiming numbers were inflated, and that it was all a hoaxssssss, they would have.

Instead he whipped people who wanted haircuts into a frenzy because pretty soon leftists were going to take their guns away (WTF???), and terrified angry supporters ran at public buildings toting like four weapons apiece. Governors were terrified and let their people out. To bowl and get tattoos.

In April. Just one month after our only-partial lockdowns...

And the our president started telling people he wanted to see churches filled...

in April...

Along with up to something like 60 tweets per day talking about how "lamestream media" was making all this up. As well as hurling abuse at their questions and basically calling them all liars at DAILY press conferences.

And governors were supposed to swim against this tide? It's all the governors' fault?

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

On 7/13/2020 at 7:28 AM, sothereiwas said:

I'm also not an expert, but it seems to me just by applying reasoning and also observation that the new Wu flu is not going away soon, possibly ever. What that would seem to leave us with is a scenario where the way forward consists of better treatments and herd immunity via exposure to either the virus or vaccination. As the supply of infectable hosts is reduced the incidence rate of infections will fall. Until then, try to keep people from being injured or killed. 

To do all those things, we have to be able to afford treatment, care, and research. Connect the dots. 

IMO it's all down to the vaccine now. We will not otherwise reduce numbers.

[CaliforniaGirl]

On 7/13/2020 at 9:36 AM, clia said:

You'll probably find this impossible to believe, but the White House Task force did release guidelines back in March, encouraging people to shelter in, social distance, work from home, avoid large gatheriings, discretionary travel, eating out, going to bars, etc.  And Trump discussed these guidelines at a number of the daily briefings he did throughout March and April.   

And less than two weeks after issuing those guidelines, the president went back to furiously tweeting about how it was all lamestream media Democrat B.S., and telling the nation he was eager to see churches filled for Easter.

[CaliforniaGirl]

5 hours ago, enigma32 said:

Fauci first said we should not be wearing masks. Later he admitted that he lied about that in order to preserve supplies since he feared there would be a shortage. 

Faucci was under the president's heel and the president more than once hinted he was going to boot him. Each time Faucci went back to "agreeing with" the president.

Who else is lined up to be accused of being the cause of this failure...rather than our leader? Obama? Betty Crocker? Santa Claus? Leadership stinks from the head down in this one and we all know it. 

[amaysngrace]

Some of us still believe it’s been grossly exaggerated.  I am one of those people.  I’m still cautious and careful in the event it is every bit as bad as it’s being played up in the media but in my own personal experience I can honestly say it seems like hype and hysteria.  My daughter had it and we didn’t get it is basically what I’m basing that on.  

Also too, she hasn’t worked a covid shift in weeks...WEEKS...and she’s the covid unit.  I’m glad for that and I hope it stays that way but wtf?

[CaliforniaGirl]

1 hour ago, enigma32 said:

So you're saying that our medical experts will lie if they think there is pressure from the government to do so? 

I'm saying Trump's lackeys will lie under pressure from the president, yes. Organizations where there isn't just one person for the president to fire (as is his style)...no.

[NuevoYorko]

6 hours ago, enigma32 said:

So you're saying that our medical experts will lie if they think there is pressure from the government to do so? 

I posted a link above that does a pretty good job of getting to the bottom of this "lie" of Fauci's that trump and his followers have decided to hang onto with such fervor.  It got left behind a bit due to the lag in link approval.  You might find it elucidating.  

[Angelle]

A friend of mine is still using an inhaler, almost four months after getting sick. She was healthy before this. Another friend just lost her grandmother to Covid. Less death (if that's even true today), is still a loss of human life - people matter. 

[Timshel]

22 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

Fauci clearly states that we should not be wearing masks. At the time the CDC agreed with him. Fauci admits that he said we should not be wearing masks because he wanted to avoid a shortage. The problem is, he knew even then that masks were necessary and chose to instead mislead the public and has since gone back on that recommendation.

I expect the government to lie to us; politicians lie every day. Doctors should not be lying. And when they do, they shouldn't then go on to say that they have been honest and should be believed. And people shouldn't defend doctors lying to us during a pandemic either. 

Well, talk about being between a rock and a hard place, Fauci certainly is and has been.  I think he knows that he will be the fall guy for some people, for now.  I think the only reason he has put up with all the crap is first and foremost, it's his job.  Do no harm and have your guts ripped out while you're doing it, lol.  He's a tough cookie. 

There was a shortage of ppe and there still is a shortage of ppe.  If the doctors and nurses die, there is no one to treat the patients.  In any case, I think Fauci and I agree, today matters and we will know more tomorrow.

So, Fauci being a stand up guy and a stellar physician is the person in this pandemic you want to take the time to call a liar?

[Timshel]

Enigma, that guy has been walking a mountain with random boulders falling around.  I admire his tenacity, he stuck around for all of us. 

As far as our respect for ppe, toilet paper comes to mind. 

[sothereiwas]

23 minutes ago, Timshel said:

you want to take the time to call a liar?

Well, he lied, so I guess that makes him a liar. Not only that, but he lied in a way that might have actually cost some people their lives, so that's put do no harm right out the window. 

[thefooloftheyear]

Fauci is getting paid to the tune of almost a half a mil/yr in salary alone...God knows what he's really worth...As an old man, no less...I wouldn't feel so bad for him or worry about his feelings....I am quite sure he sleeps very well at night...

And that's really the crux of the  issue for many ...

While there are certainly some ding dongs that have nothing better to do than flout all these rules for no good reason other than their "freedom is being infringed", the vast majority have real concerns about  their job. their career, their business, their kids, etc...With all the conflicting information and shuck and jive since this started, its no wonder people are losing it...It's not easy 

Reports surfaced that several Florida labs are misreporting their findings...I didn't read the entire story, and I dont want to do the "post link and wait" game ...

TFY

 

[Timshel]

4 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Well, he lied, so I guess that makes him a liar. Not only that, but he lied in a way that might have actually cost some people their lives, so that's put do no harm right out the window. 

First, he did not lie, let's not be dramatic.  Conservation of ppe is not lying and of course you are aware that Covid-19 is a virus that the whole world is studying; pinning psychic knowledge to Fauci is silly.  Supercilious.

Do no harm attack is predictable.  It's an oath and Dr. Fauci has followed it impeccably.  Do no harm does not mean that people will not die or that medical knowledge or technique will always save; it means the greater good, without malice, the best you are able.  Standing by us through this administration, in the face of a new viral pandemic, Fauci has done no harm.

[sothereiwas]

1 hour ago, Timshel said:

First, he did not lie, let's not be dramatic.

At the very least he spread disinformation. With places like South Korea having experience with SARS v.1.0 and opting for masking up, any advice to not wear a mask should at the very least not have been based on a guess. Like it or not, he advised people to not wear masks based on an economic issue (shortage of masks) and not any medical evidence. 

 

1 hour ago, Timshel said:

it means the greater good

No, it does not. Do no harm is a pledge to each individual. 

[CaliforniaGirl]

58 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

Fauci: The masks are important for someone who’s infected to prevent them from infecting someone else… Right now in the United States, people should not be walking around with masks.

Fauci: …There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.

Fauci: Of course, of course. But, when you think masks, you should think of health care providers needing them and people who are ill. The people who, when you look at the films of foreign countries and you see 85% of the people wearing masks — that’s fine, that’s fine. I’m not against it. If you want to do it, that’s fine.

Fauci: Exactly, that’s the point. It could lead to a shortage of masks for the people who really need it.

Direct quotes. This was back in March. Imagine what would have happened if instead of basically telling us masks won't help, if he actually encouraged us to make our own masks at home and talked about how important wearing them would be. No, he waited until later to say we should be wearing masks. So, he is either lying here that we should not have been wearing masks to stop the spread of this virus, or he doesn't know what he is talking about. Your choice. 

"Imagine what would have happened if instead of basically telling us masks won't help, if he actually encouraged us to make our own masks at home and talked about how important wearing them would be."

 

Well, yeah, imagine what would have happened. Fauci can imagine. Within four seconds he'd be having #firefauci retweeted by the president along with menacing looks every time he stepped up to the podium. So actually we can imagine and it wouldn't even be a shock, that's a lather, rinse, repeat by now. It's SOP for this administration...practically a yawn. But not for this week's guy who gets to have his job and reputation at stake. So yeah.

However...even under constant threat of the president canning him and ruining him for being straight-up instead of obeying, Fauci has slipped in what he REALLY thought every once in a while.

Under sideways (and most likely, behind closed doors, direct) threats of his job and reputation and standing he always backed off...just enough.

Now again he's speaking up...carefully. (Or tiredly?) And right away come the nasty "preparing to ruin this guy if he doesn't lie for me again" comments and tweets.

Eventually Fauci will crack since he seems to have a conscience (which jerks him this way and that, fllip flop, flip flop) and he'll decide he doesn't care if he ever works again, anywhere, and he'll tell the whole truth. My guess is a whole lot of people will be REALLY surprised and the president will immediately get all shrieky and call for him to be "arrested" and "investigated" for basically nothing because how dare he. Stay tuned, everyone.

Imagine what would have happened if the president had cared about people dying at least as much as his own campaign and power? And had not actively encoraged, cajoled and even attempted to force (with threats to governors and threats to cut off funding and so on) people into putting themselves into danger with thousands of disparaging and misleading comments and tweets, and with firings and threats and put-downs of officials, and extraordinary, targeted divisiveness, for months and months? As long as we're imagining, right. But that really IS a fantasy. So NVM.

Edited July 16, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[CaliforniaGirl]

3 hours ago, enigma32 said:

You share these things like you have some secret knowledge or something that other people are not aware of. I know why Fauci said what he said as he has already explained it.  His quote is not taken out of context in any way, despite what any "fact checkers" might say. Fauci clearly states that we should not be wearing masks. At the time the CDC agreed with him. Fauci admits that he said we should not be wearing masks because he wanted to avoid a shortage. The problem is, he knew even then that masks were necessary and chose to instead mislead the public and has since gone back on that recommendation.

I expect the government to lie to us; politicians lie every day. Doctors should not be lying. And when they do, they shouldn't then go on to say that they have been honest and should be believed. And people shouldn't defend doctors lying to us during a pandemic either. 

By the way, who else stated these things?

Who else who had direct power over Fauci, and others?

Want to hear "Fauci lied?" Sure thing! Fauci lied. No argument here! And is not off the hook for it. Established.

So anyway. Is anyone else by any chance also not off the hook for deliberarate, harmful lies that affected millions of people?

Or is commanding others okay, but following the commands under fear for one's livelihood and reputation the real bugaboo here?

If an army sergeant commands his platoon to kill a whole bunch of kids and under threat of punishment and being ostracized permanently if they don't, they follow the order, is it cool for the world to then blame them while deciding the sergeant is free and clear? What's your stance on this sort of thing - you know, the most powerful person being not at fault if his employees follow his commands?

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[CaliforniaGirl]

1 minute ago, enigma32 said:

@CaliforniaGirlif we are talking about politicians, I expect them to lie every day for the sake of politics. I don't believe anything any of them say. Medical experts on the other hand, those people should stick to straight facts. I don't want to go to my doctor and have him/her lie to me about medical advice for political reasons and I hold Fauci to the same standard. 

Oh boy. This is amazing to watch.

So, the president is not held to the same standard, lying and harming millions people? It's "expected"? Because he's just a politician?

No harm, no foul?

Edited July 16, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[CaliforniaGirl]

Excuse me, but how on EARTH do you conclude that the president was putting a positive spin on *anything*?

By any chance have you read his hundreds of furious, attacking, blaming, jeering, paranoid, divisive, conspiracy-riddled, threatening, anti-science, "get out there and breathe on each other at church and squeeze together at campaign rallies and 'liberate' states - or else the damned Democrats and their fake news lamestream media 'win' somehow...and by the way, 'they're' [who?? I mean...WTH?] trying to take your guns away....just sayin' " tweets?

This was what he had to do? To keep everybody calm?

Good work, Mr. President.

And dangerously and harmfully lying, and threatening and forcing his employees to lie, and cherry-picking what medical professionals were allowed at his podium and divorcing medical professionals who WERE giving early safety advice were all just pretty much what he had to do? 

Come on, Nobember. Come on come on come on...

Edited July 16, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[CaliforniaGirl]

3 hours ago, enigma32 said:

 

You can be amazed all you want but it doesn't amaze me when the same few people can't wait to log into LS to hate on literally everything our POTUS does every day. It's not Trump's fault that 90% of the people I see every day in my area are not wearing a mask despite masks being mandated. Outside of Walmart, there is not one business in my area that I have visited that has actually followed social distancing and mandatory mask wearing. 

Well, actually, yes. Yes it is.

Modeling not wearing a mask, claiming the numbers are a hoax and skewed and it's not all that bad, holding a rally - maskless - and expecting thousands of people to crowd together, claiming safety measures are "the Democrats" hoping to keep him from winning the election (always it's a downplaying of the actual virus) and on...and on...drumming up an angry base by constantly claiming lamestream media is just lying all the time and exaggerating...

I mean yeah. It actually IS his fault that so many people are refusing to wear masks. 🤷

As for the people posting here daily about Trump...I wouldn't know as I am certainly not on this sub daily. But I'll have to take your word for it as in order to make that assessment, apparently you are. So I'll trust you on that but any hate aside, yes, the president IS at fault for constantly jeering at safety measures. His base follows his lead. They jeer about safety measures too. There is no mystery here.

[thefooloftheyear]

27 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

 

As for the people posting here daily about Trump...I wouldn't know as I am certainly not on this sub daily. But I'll have to take your word for it as in order to make that assessment, apparently you are. So I'll trust you on that but any hate aside, yes, the president IS at fault for constantly jeering at safety measures. His base follows his lead. They jeer about safety measures too. There is no mystery here.

I'm not going to get into a debate about what the President is doing, but stop and think about this for a minute....

Upwards of 100K people die each year from hazards they incur(ed) from working, including 6K that are actually killed on the job...These folks all died so that everyone can have power,  gas, roads to travel, safety on the streets, etc...Every year...covid or no covid...No one ever screamed and hollered about those lives lost, they were just doing their jobs...

Why does this matter in terms of covid?

Because most people understand that the life we all have chosen to live now involves some level of risk assessment....Truth is we really don't know(and the medical experts don't know fully) what the real actual ramifications would be if there was an absolute lockdown where everyone just stayed inside all locked down...Everyone...indefinitely?? That would mean, just for me, one person, that several people lose their income and I lose a business, all my suppliers lose business and employees, state/federal loses tax revenue, etc....Now multiply that effect by the millions...And everything that comes along with it....If we all knew that this was a 6 month thing, it would be no problem we can ride that out, but no one knows how long this will last or who will pay for the carnage that would ensue....

What I see here is a "push-pull" situation between both sides...You have the medical people(who they themselves will admit really don't have a true handle on this)., and all the others that need/want to try to get things moving again...I don't think either side is fully right or wrong....And you know what?  That's a good thing... I think approaching this fully from either extreme would have been catastrophic...The "push pull is actually good for all of us...It allows things to move forward.... with some checks...

TFY

[QuietRiot]

1 minute ago, thefooloftheyear said:

I'm not going to get into a debate about what the President is doing, but stop and think about this for a minute....

Upwards of 100K people die each year from hazards they incur(ed) from working, including 6K that are actually killed on the job...These folks all died so that everyone can have power,  gas, roads to travel, safety on the streets, etc...Every year...covid or no covid...No one ever screamed and hollered about those lives lost, they were just doing their jobs...

Why does this matter in terms of covid?

Because most people understand that the life we all have chosen to live now involves some level of risk assessment....Truth is we really don't know(and the medical experts don't know fully) what the real actual ramifications would be if there was an absolute lockdown where everyone just stayed inside all locked down...Everyone...indefinitely?? That would mean, just for me, one person, that several people lose their income and I lose a business, all my suppliers lose business and employees, state/federal loses tax revenue, etc....Now multiply that effect by the millions...And everything that comes along with it....If we all knew that this was a 6 month thing, it would be no problem we can ride that out, but no one knows how long this will last or who will pay for the carnage that would ensue....

What I see here is a "push-pull" situation between both sides...You have the medical people(who they themselves will admit really don't have a true handle on this)., and all the others that need/want to try to get things moving again...I don't think either side is fully right or wrong....And you know what?  That's a good thing... I think approaching this fully from either extreme would have been catastrophic...The "push pull is actually good for all of us...It allows things to move forward.... with some checks...

TFY

Welll, we can get the economy going, but not talking about lock down. But if you want to open back up and successfully get back into full swing...wear a FCKIN MASK! But people are even resistant to THAT.

Scientists have said that if everyone wore masks...to work, running their businesses and so on...we'd reduce the spread considerably within 4 to 8 weeks.

[Piddy]

2 minutes ago, QuietRiot said:

Welll, we can get the economy going, but not talking about lock down. But if you want to open back up and successfully get back into full swing...wear a FCKIN MASK! But people are even resistant to THAT.

Scientists have said that if everyone wore masks...to work, running their businesses and so on...we'd reduce the spread considerably within 4 to 8 weeks.

Heard the same thing.  But somehow wearing a mask got politicized by you know who.  A real shame.  

[thefooloftheyear]

15 minutes ago, QuietRiot said:

Welll, we can get the economy going, but not talking about lock down. But if you want to open back up and successfully get back into full swing...wear a FCKIN MASK! But people are even resistant to THAT.

Scientists have said that if everyone wore masks...to work, running their businesses and so on...we'd reduce the spread considerably within 4 to 8 weeks.

Look around you.....Notice all those overweight/obese people?

Do you know what the toll is on themselves and our medical system??  Despite what every medical expert on the planet tells them,  why can't those people listen??

And so on with drugs, alcohol, you name it....All stupid behaviors that everyone knows is bad, yet people do what people do...Why you seem to have this obsession with thinking you can control(or that it bothers you so much).,what others do is beyond me....It's a losing battle, buddy...Go buy an island somewhere, and make your own rules...Thats about the only way its happening...

The world is full of people that won't be controlled no matter what "good" medical advice exists....Just look at all the looters/rioters, etc ....You think they care?  And I am sure most of them hate Trump..  Its got absolutely nothing to do with politics, as I know plenty of people who wont wear masks and hate Trump....And I know people that think he's great, but are listening carefully to the experts..

Forget about trying to control people...It wont happen...And its not about politics...I know a lot of pro Trump people...None of them ever said he was responsible for how they handled their lives through this...

TFY