Ableism

[pepperbird]

If we're going to discuss "isms", the ableism is, at least in my opinion, worthy of inclusion. In my country, it's reported that 22 percent of people are disabled ( 2017 Statscan) and it's up to 26 percent in the USA. (CDC) , so this affects a big chunk of the population.

Ableism can really hold someone back, and it's very insidious because most of it comes from a  very good place. In my experience, it comes from just about every corner, event the orgs that are supposed to help. It's usually really well intentioned, and people want to be supportive but maybe they don't know how?

if you want to know what someone with physical/development/cognitive/mental health issues needs, ask them. If you own/manage a business, look for barriers that might keep people out.  Inclusion is about more than words- it's about removing barriers and actually working with the people involved to find out what they need. If cost is a problem, there may be grants that can help fund upgrades etc.

 

[pepperbird]

If you identify as disabled, what are some barriers you face? For me, being hearing impaired ( I have about 20 percent in the low frequencies, almost nothing in the high) can be hard, especially in medical situations.  I have to have someone with me any time I see a doctor etc., and explaining that can get frustrating.  I can understand why there's concern, especially with covid-19 floating around.

The barriers that come with being autistic are more subtle,   There's  a stereotype that's out there, and part of that is driven by well intentioned efforts in mass media. People want to raise awareness, but often go back to the rocking back and forth/hand flapping. savant stereotype.

 For a long time, I was told by teachers, counsellors etc. that autistics really struggle, tend to need to live at home, need a lot of support, don't go far academically ( unless the "savant" piece comes into play), that sort of thing. My parents pretty quickly rejected all of that, because they thought it was nonsense. They took a different approach and taught me that if there's barrier I can't get over,  I need to find a way to go around it. That's how I raised my own kids. The world will not help you- you have to help and advocate for yourself.

One "barrier" (for lack of a better term) that a lot of people don't realize can be insidious are the social media posts that follow the tack of "look at the autistic boy bounce the ball- wow".  I get why people like those-  but it's actually quite patronizing. It could be the wording- if it was more "this little boy worked hard to learn to bounce and catch the ball, and now he can" that would be different. That may not make sense to most, but it's something other autistics I have talked to understand. We're not children. We don't need pats on the head.

A huge issue a lot of autistics come up against is "masking".  We pretend to be neurotypical because it's  easier that way. When I say "easier" I just mean that it makes life a bit easier from a  social and inclusion  perspective. It also keeps being autitsic from being seen as all that you are. My daughter masks and I can understand why. She's in university, in the top ten percent of students in any program and is on her way to law school. She works really hard to hide being autistic because as she explained it, when people find out that you are that can become all that you are to them.  It's not "look at her- she worked hard to get top grades" it becomes " look at her - she has high grades even though she's autistic".  Subtle, but the messaging is there.

One issue that is often left out of the discussion re: autism is that conversion therapy and other forms of negative reinforcement is still seen in some places as an acceptable "treatment" for autism. It's seen as a disease that needs a cure, and in some cases, that can involve some pretty cruel practices.  Thankfully, that's becoming a lot less mainstream these days.


 

[pepperbird2]

silly macbook died on me (pepperbird) , so I created a new account...

I'd really like to know why ableism is acceptable? please don't give me the line of 'it's not", because it's happening all over.
here's just one example:
https://thepostmillennial.com/ontario-family-face-mask-disney-store
 

According to the mom, she was told "Apparently, one of them said “I know people on the spectrum and they can wear masks".
I understand people are sacred, but this is getting ridiculous. Here's a couple more.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/12/boy-10-autism-syndrome-kicked-shop-not-wearing-mask-12845637/
https://www.ydr.com/story/news/2020/07/15/hersheypark-refuses-autistic-boy-because-he-wasnt-wearing-face-mask/5442681002/

Now, I fully expect the "we have to think of the good of us all" trotted out here, but would this excuse be accepted in other situations?

 

[basil67]

When my autistic son was little (and not so little) he didn't behave appropriately in restaurants - too loud, wouldn't stay in his chair etc.  So we didn't take him.   I don't think that a disability is a good enough reason to spoil the amenity of an experience others pay for.   Or a good enough reason to put them at risk.  

With COVID, just as those who are highly at risk are told to stay home, those who's needs put others at risk should also stay home.

[pepperbird2]

 The LAW here sates that people who cannot wear a mask, for a legitimate reason, are not required to. YOU may not like that, but that's not up to you to decide.  Follow the damned law...or is it okay to break the law if you don't happen to agree with it?

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by pepperbird2

[major_merrick]

I'm guessing that this thread is mostly directed at autism?  If so, I can't really relate to that specific issue, but I can relate to disability in general.

In the USA, I think that the government has really lowered the standard on what is considered to be a disability.  People can receive government money for all sorts of things, when they are perfectly able to work in some way.  I think that at least in the USA, the system and the population tend to be kind of patronizing toward people who have a disability.  I think that welfare lowers people's overall resilience to the negative things that happen in life.  Rather than making them equal, it makes them dependent. 

In my family, we've got people who have different issues.  My mother-in-law had to stop her regular medical practice due to her disability....a disability she received from a bad MMR vaccine.  She keeps her license, and even though she's entering her "retirement" years she has now become our county coroner.  She fights chronic pain daily, but has found all kinds of ways to manage.  My husband's Wife #1 - among other things, she's deaf in one ear, blind in one eye, and has limited function in one hand due to an auto accident.  She doesn't work, but is a fantastic mother to her children and has learned to cope so well that I didn't know about her prosthetic eye until long after I joined the family.  My husband has damaged lungs due to a chemical accident....he basically pretends it never happened even though at times he's short of breath. 

Most disabled people I've known have ways of coping.  Those who can cope are quite proud of how they do so, and even resist accommodations made on their behalf so that they appear as "normal" as possible.  I guess that's called "masking" these days?  Hard to say whether that's good or bad.  To me, the solution seems to lie in broadening the range of behaviors and methods that the general population perceives as normal.  Followed by a healthy dose of independence, and a general attitude in society where we leave people alone and let them do what they want to/need to/have to do. 

I find that general society in the USA is too nosy.  The face-mask thing is a perfect example.  When stores have employees at the front to accost customers about policies, and when members of the public want to be confrontational about masks (and really anything else) the average person's response tends toward compliance or some sort of polite explanation.  If people's responses to nosy busybodies was a bit more aggressive, we would see less of it. 

 

[basil67]

18 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

 The LAW here sates that people who cannot wear a mask, for a legitimate reason, are not required to. YOU may not like that, but that's not up to you to decide.  Follow the damned law...or is it okay to break the law if you don't happen to agree with it?

 

I didn't suggest breaking the law.  I suggested staying home as an alternative to not wearing a mask in public.  

[basil67]

1 hour ago, major_merrick said:

I find that general society in the USA is too nosy.  The face-mask thing is a perfect example.  When stores have employees at the front to accost customers about policies, and when members of the public want to be confrontational about masks (and really anything else) the average person's response tends toward compliance or some sort of polite explanation.  If people's responses to nosy busybodies was a bit more aggressive, we would see less of it. 

We've seen some of this aggression.  The vilification they receive when someone films the confrontation and releases it online is enough to remind everyone else to not be an entitled idiot.

Edited August 14, 2020 by basil67

[schlumpy]

I think that it's a good thing that society is making allowances for those that are disabled but I like to see things change over a reasonable period of time. Some of the demands and lawsuits concerning ADA have happened to make money for lawyers or scratch some liberal itch.

Ten to fifteen years ago in my city I noticed they were replacing the sidewalks on street corners and putting in concrete with built -in ramps. They destroyed a perfectly good sidewalk and put in something that rarely got used. In my neighborhood there is one women who moves around in a wheelchair but she uses the street.

I think the ramps are a good idea but implementation represented poor city management. Someone downtown was eager to put "helps the handicapped" on their political resume and spent a bunch of money that could have been more wisely spent. They could have done it in stages and hit areas first where the disabled actually live.

Again the idea was good but implementation was poor due to political wants and needs.

They did exactly the same thing with schools. Instead of replacing he buildings that actually needed replaced they replaced newer buildings in black areas of the city to maintain political strength.

I guess it's pretty easy to be generous with someone else's wallet.

[pepperbird2]

9 hours ago, major_merrick said:

I'm guessing that this thread is mostly directed at autism?  If so, I can't really relate to that specific issue, but I can relate to disability in general.

In the USA, I think that the government has really lowered the standard on what is considered to be a disability.  People can receive government money for all sorts of things, when they are perfectly able to work in some way.  I think that at least in the USA, the system and the population tend to be kind of patronizing toward people who have a disability.  I think that welfare lowers people's overall resilience to the negative things that happen in life.  Rather than making them equal, it makes them dependent. 

In my family, we've got people who have different issues.  My mother-in-law had to stop her regular medical practice due to her disability....a disability she received from a bad MMR vaccine.  She keeps her license, and even though she's entering her "retirement" years she has now become our county coroner.  She fights chronic pain daily, but has found all kinds of ways to manage.  My husband's Wife #1 - among other things, she's deaf in one ear, blind in one eye, and has limited function in one hand due to an auto accident.  She doesn't work, but is a fantastic mother to her children and has learned to cope so well that I didn't know about her prosthetic eye until long after I joined the family.  My husband has damaged lungs due to a chemical accident....he basically pretends it never happened even though at times he's short of breath. 

Most disabled people I've known have ways of coping.  Those who can cope are quite proud of how they do so, and even resist accommodations made on their behalf so that they appear as "normal" as possible.  I guess that's called "masking" these days?  Hard to say whether that's good or bad.  To me, the solution seems to lie in broadening the range of behaviors and methods that the general population perceives as normal.  Followed by a healthy dose of independence, and a general attitude in society where we leave people alone and let them do what they want to/need to/have to do. 

I find that general society in the USA is too nosy.  The face-mask thing is a perfect example.  When stores have employees at the front to accost customers about policies, and when members of the public want to be confrontational about masks (and really anything else) the average person's response tends toward compliance or some sort of polite explanation.  If people's responses to nosy busybodies was a bit more aggressive, we would see less of it. 

 

I;m living in a place that;s being called "one of the safest places in the world" right now. There hasn't  been case of covid 19 in weeks. Even so, people are acting really odd. For example, I took my daughter to buy an iPad at the Apple store. At the front, they did the temperature taking, and I had to explain to them that my temp is always high. They wanted me to put a mask on over the one I was already wearing.
We voted with our feet, so to speak, and walked out. I didn't snap at the guys, they were just doing their jobs and they are hard to come by right now, but that was nonsense.

This virus has taken a lot of "intelligence' out of some people. they just blindly believe whatever they are told. We keep being told "our borders are closed to the USA" even though you can fly in and out whenever you please. I really believe that, at least here, the mask thing is more about giving people the perception they are safe so they will go back to work. Between the CERB and other measures, our government is bleeding money and it's gotten to a point now where something has to give.

[pepperbird2]

32 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

I think that it's a good thing that society is making allowances for those that are disabled but I like to see things change over a reasonable period of time. Some of the demands and lawsuits concerning ADA have happened to make money for lawyers or scratch some liberal itch.

Ten to fifteen years ago in my city I noticed they were replacing the sidewalks on street corners and putting in concrete with built -in ramps. They destroyed a perfectly good sidewalk and put in something that rarely got used. In my neighborhood there is one women who moves around in a wheelchair but she uses the street.

I think the ramps are a good idea but implementation represented poor city management. Someone downtown was eager to put "helps the handicapped" on their political resume and spent a bunch of money that could have been more wisely spent. They could have done it in stages and hit areas first where the disabled actually live.

Again the idea was good but implementation was poor due to political wants and needs.

They did exactly the same thing with schools. Instead of replacing he buildings that actually needed replaced they replaced newer buildings in black areas of the city to maintain political strength.

I guess it's pretty easy to be generous with someone else's wallet.

When I see things like this, I always wonder if the government who made the decision even consulted wheelchair users or people with other mobility issues to see what they needed. There could have been other measures that would have helped a lot more, but they don't come with the same visible "wow" factor. People can't "see" programming and other supports the way they can a brand new ramp, and I 100 percent agree with you that in the situation you described, it was more about feathering some politician's nest.

There's often a variety of ways to support people with disabilities that don't cost all that much, and some cost nothing at all. There's a man who has mobility issues and lives on our street. He uses a power wheelchair, and to get to the sidewalk at the end, he has to cross a street that's on a hill and has a high volume of traffic. He'd almost been hit several times, so he went to the municipality to see what could be done. From what he said they tried to throw money at the problem, but he told them all that was really needed was a sign that asked drivers to lower their speed on the hill. It was installed, and he says he's had no problem since.

There's often ways of addressing an issue that are very economical and "low key".  The drivers have to go a bit slower, he's safe and there wasn't an undue expense passed along to the taxpayer.