Having big problems with boyfriends brother....

[Sharron Hallet]

Hi All. Sorry about the long post, please bear with me though 😊

I've been dating my boyfriend (Daniel) for two years now. We're both in our late twenties. It's going very well with him, we're planning to get married 🥰 However, recently there have been some issues with his twin brother Clive that I'm not sure how to navigate.

Daniel and I decided to move in together a year ago. We asked Clive if he would be interested in joining us as we wanted to save on rent and we knew he was keen to move out of his parent's house - win-win situation. Clive agreed, so we found a nice two-bedroom apartment and signed the lease. 

Some background on my relationship with Clive (before the drama): We were on friendly terms even though he is very vocal about his many strong, conservative opinions of which I mostly don't agree. I never entered into debates or arguments with him over our different opinions and world-views to keep the peace. Clive is extroverted and loves to talk, particularly about politics and his hobbies. On the other hand, I've always been quite introverted and more inclined to keep to myself. Despite our differences, I generally enjoy his company and try to make an effort with him as he and Daniel were so close. 

After living together peacefully for about three months, Clive started a new relationship and has his girlfriend (Lilly) over quite often - at least three times a week. Although Daniel and I enjoyed Lilly as a person, we noticed that she was a bit inconsiderate - she was very loud (even late at night and early in the morning), never picked up after herself or washed her dishes, and made the whole house stink of the incense she burnt in Clive's room. We didn't raise these issues with Lilly or Clive because we weren't overly annoyed, they were just small things we picked up on. 

Enter the COVID pandemic. After being in lockdown for three weeks, Clive asked Lilly to sit out the remainder of the lockdown with him, in our shared apartment, as Lilly was getting lonely at home. So, we went from having three people in the house to four. Lilly, Daniel, and I were all working from home. Clive doesn't work (and never has worked), he studies part-time and lives off a substantial allowance from his parents. There is limited desk space in the house so while Lilly worked from Clive's room, Daniel and I worked at the dining room table (we don't have a desk in our room).

As far as I can tell, irritation between us began to occur a few days after Lilly 'moved in'. She and Clive started doing YouTube workouts weekday afternoons (at around 3 pm) in the space right next to the dining room (the apartment is mostly open plan). This meant Daniel and I had to listen to the blaring workout music and instructors, and see Lilly and Clive jumping around for an hour while we tried to work. After the second workout, we asked them nicely to please either exercise after working hours or use Clive's bedroom, as their exercising was distracting us from our work. They didn't seem happy about us asking but agreed nonetheless. We also asked Clive to please speak to Lilly about limiting the incense burning. A few days later, while the four of us were talking, Lilly told us about something she was dealing with at work. She made some incorrect assumptions about a subject I've studied extensively and had a career in. I explained to her that she's wrong about a few things and offered some alternative viewpoints. She clearly didn't take this well as she became sulky and withdrawn for the rest of the evening. I didn't think much of it as she's proven to be quite moody in general. However, from then on she refused to greet Daniel and me (never said good morning) and didn't acknowledge us at all during the day. She acted like we didn't exist and when we tried to engage her, she gave only one-word responses. I noticed that Clive was doing the same thing (although to a lesser extent) to me, but not to Daniel. This went on for a couple of days. I asked Daniel if he would please speak to Clive about it so we could find out what was wrong, make amends, and clear the obvious tension in the house. 

At this point, Daniel was going back to work. Before leaving for the office, he asked Clive if they could have a chat when he got back in the evening - just the two of them. Clive agreed but then during the same day, he and Lilly packed their bags and moved to Clive and Daniel's parent's house, without telling me or Daniel (I was out of the house when they left). We were both very shocked by this. Daniel then sent a message to Clive asking if they left because of us. Clive replied saying they just wanted more space. Daniel and I still found it very strange that they didn't even tell us they were leaving. A few weeks later, Clive comes home (and Lilly goes back to her home) and I noticed he was still treating me like I didn't exist - if the three of us were having a conversation, he wouldn't even look at me or acknowledge what I said. Daniel also noticed. While I was out, he asked Clive what his problem was. Clive told him that we've both been rude to him and Lilly and that I, specifically, need to apologise and "own up" to what I've done. Daniel told him that the three of us need to sit down and talk about it the following evening. Clive says okay but then once again disappears for two days. Daniel messages him and asks him to please come over so we can talk things through and clear the air. Clive doesn't respond. It seemed to me that he was upset but handling it in a very poor, immature way. The following evening, while Daniel and I were watching a movie in our room, Clive messages to say he's in the lounge if we want to talk. 

Daniel and I go upstairs and Clive is immediately hostile (asking us to hurry up and say what we have to say). We ask him what we've done to evoke such a response from him. He says that if we don't already know, he's not going to tell us. I ask Clive what I need to own up to and apologise for, as I don't know what I've done wrong. He once again says that if I don't already know, he's not going to tell me. Clive then proceeds to go on an angry, loud rant - telling Daniel and me we're awful people, with nasty personalities, that deserve one another. Telling us that he has been absolutely miserable living with us, that from day one we've been rude and he has been uncomfortable. He also says that Lilly refuses to come over any more because of us. While he's saying this, Daniel and I are sitting and Clive is standing over us, yelling and pointing in our faces. We ask Clive for a few examples of our rudeness because, as far as we know, we've all been happy living together and Clive has never expressed or shown any discomfort previously. We also tell him we feel that we've been welcoming towards Lilly, and that she is the one who was standoffish towards us. Clive says that he saw me rolling my eyes once while Lilly was talking and that I'm antisocial because I spend a lot of time in my room, and that Daniel and I were rude about the workouts. I tell Clive that I've always been a quiet person I didn't mean any personal offence. I apologised for the supposed eye-rolling. We ask Clive if that's all, he says no but that he doesn't need to carry on as he feels he's said enough. Daniel and I tell Clive that although there may have been some tense moments in the house, we don't feel that he's being reasonable by yelling at us, or by completely avoiding us, especially if he can't tell us what we've done so wrong that he or Lilly can't bear to be around us anymore. Clive once again says that he's not going to tell us. He then declares that he's moving out the next day. (This all sounds very immature, I know).

So, the next day Clive gathers his things and moves in with Lilly. We visit Daniel's parent's and they are distraught that this happened between their twin boys, his mom says she can't even sleep at night. So now I feel like I've caused a rift in the family (even though I have no clue what I've done to warrant it?). Daniel tells me that he thinks all this is just a symptom of Clive's general unhappiness with life - he has never been able to hold down a job and is still trying to finish the degree he started ten years ago, despite doing nothing with his life but studying. He also tells me not to worry so much as Clive has had problems with every house mate he has lived with. I feel like I can't help but worry when someone yells at me, telling me what a horrible person I am. Clive is so stubborn and holds on to grudges for ages so I feel like he will never want to make things better, although I'm happy to let this all be water under the bridge. Daniel says that he won't be on friendly terms with Clive if Clive continues being rude to me. There has been no contact between the brothers for a week now and it doesn't look like there will be for some time. I find the whole situation very bizarre and I don't know what conclusions to draw or how to make it better.

TL/DR: Boyfriends twin brother blew up at me and called me an awful person without telling me what I had done wrong. Now the brothers aren't speaking and I'm not sure how to make the situation better.

[d0nnivain]

You don't do anything.  

You tried to apologize to Clive & you asked multiple times what went wrong.  When he repeatedly said he wouldn't tell you that was your cue to stop trying.  He was too immature & petulant to deal with.  

This is a fight between brothers.  There is no room in here for you. 

Your BF Daniel needs to handle his brother.  If the mother is so upset that she can't sleep, have Daniel suggest to her that she play peacemaker.  Perhaps she can get her man child, Clive, to actually voice what his problem is.  At that point, you can decide if you want to apologize for whatever perceived slight. 

Meanwhile you go along like this never happened.  You be gracious & warm to Clive when do see him.  Act like he didn't have his little meltdown.   

[deepthinking]

I think LIlly is the problem. Before LIly, the 2 brothers were good. She has manipulated Charles, by picking teeny faults and making them big ones, so that Charles, in love, takes her side.

This stirrer might be your sis-in-law one day.  I agree with Donnivian, just be pleasant to everybody.   

Edited July 3, 2020 by deepthinking

[Sharron Hallet]

9 minutes ago, deepthinking said:

I think LIlly is the problem. Before LIly, the 2 brothers were good. She has manipulated Charles, by picking teeny faults and making them big ones, so that Charles, in love, takes her side.

This stirrer might be your sis-in-law one day.  I agree with Donnivian, just be pleasant to everybody.   

Daniel and I also think this all may be the result of Lilly whispering in Clive's ear. It's clear she no longer wants anything to do with us as she blocked us on all social media platforms (even those we weren't connected on 🤷‍♀️). Thanks for the advice!

[d0nnivain]

I agree that Lily is the instigator but you have to deal with Clive first.  

Still your best move is kill 'em with kindness

[Acacia98]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'm guessing Clive couldn't tell you what you did wrong because he doesn't actually know. So he had to feign anger or whatever because he had to save face. 

I'm kind of glad for you guys that they moved out without your having to ask them to. It's okay that they've left. As for the rift between the two brothers, lemme just say it probably won't last too long. Now that you guys are no longer in the picture to be demonized, Clive is probably gonna become the bad guy. Then she'll dump him.

[ShyViolet]

This is not your problem.  I was relieved when at the end of your story you said that Clive and his girlfriend moved out.  Problem solved!  The brothers will work it out amongst themselves eventually.  Just stay out of it and don't get involved.  And don't blame yourself.... this doesn't sound like your fault.  Clive sounds like a person with issues.

[2.50 a gallon]

MY STORY

Many years ago I was in a similar situation.  I fell in love with a Hispanic gal, dad did not speak English.  Right from the beginning her older divorced, unhappy with life sister let be known she did not approve of her baby sister getting involved with a gringo and set out to break us up.  We dated for a couple of years, and I got to know her large family.  Very catholic family, each of her parents had multiple sisters and brothers, who all married and had more sisters and brothers. she must have had at least 100 first cousins.  And most of them were girls, I though it great we would go for a walk in her small border town, and half the young women we met were another cousin, who all wanted to hug me.  Her dad's sister had married a gringo, and everybody liked him, and other than her older sister, all of her family liked me like they liked their other gringo.  on more than one occasion when We arrived at her parents place for a visit her dad would get down the bottle of Tequila and we would get drunk together, and she would have to drive us home.  Even her dad gave us a big approval.  After we got engaged the sister moved from the small border town to our big city, and that is when the BS hit the fan.  She would make things up, such as seeing me with another woman, etc.  Which caused problems between the two of us.  One time she did see me with a blonde and went nuts.  I proved to her that the blonde was my sister and I thought finally we could have a break thru.  I could prove she was lieing.  It even got so bad that she got my fiancé to go to counseling, which caused us more problems.  I finally figured out who the counselor was and literally busted in on him and demanded to know why he was trying to break me and my fiancé up.  One session with me and he told my GF that it was her sister who was the trouble maker, she was full of hate for men from her divorce.  But it changed nothing she continued to half way believe the c__p, that her sister was spewing about me.  I refused to marry her until she got things settled with her sister.  She kept pushing for us to set a date and I kept refusing until she got the feud with her sister settled.  It never happened and one day she walked out of my life.   

Edited July 4, 2020 by 2.50 a gallon

[mark clemson]

Good riddance. Even if you guys WERE genuinely rude in some ways, you were never informed, the matter was never civilly discussed. Civil discussion of differences does not seem to be a strong point here. You were tried and convicted without notice of poorly defined crimes by the GF. You didn't cause any rifts in the family, she did. Some people are like that. Pretty drama queen-ish IMO.

A 2 bedroom apt is probably way too small for the four of you anyhow.

A side note, personally I wouldn't be placing too many bets on the brash conservative and the incense burner staying together TOO long anyhow (although you never know).

Edited July 4, 2020 by mark clemson

[Sharron Hallet]

On 7/3/2020 at 5:49 PM, Acacia98 said:

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'm guessing Clive couldn't tell you what you did wrong because he doesn't actually know. So he had to feign anger or whatever because he had to save face. 

I'm kind of glad for you guys that they moved out without your having to ask them to. It's okay that they've left. As for the rift between the two brothers, lemme just say it probably won't last too long. Now that you guys are no longer in the picture to be demonized, Clive is probably gonna become the bad guy. Then she'll dump him.

Thank you for this. I was thinking the same - he was asked to give a reasonable explanation for why he ignored me and treated me like I don't exist and he doesn't actually have one. I'm sure he felt a bit stupid. I'm hoping it'll be resolved between Daniel and Clive quickly but I'm not holding my breath. Two years ago Clive was angry at their dad for some inconsequential slight and he ignored the dad for five months (while living together) despite their dad trying to reconcile 😥 I think you're right about Lilly and Clive not lasting too long 🤞

[Sharron Hallet]

20 hours ago, 2.50 a gallon said:

MY STORY

Many years ago I was in a similar situation.  I fell in love with a Hispanic gal, dad did not speak English.  Right from the beginning her older divorced, unhappy with life sister let be known she did not approve of her baby sister getting involved with a gringo and set out to break us up.  We dated for a couple of years, and I got to know her large family.  Very catholic family, each of her parents had multiple sisters and brothers, who all married and had more sisters and brothers. she must have had at least 100 first cousins.  And most of them were girls, I though it great we would go for a walk in her small border town, and half the young women we met were another cousin, who all wanted to hug me.  Her dad's sister had married a gringo, and everybody liked him, and other than her older sister, all of her family liked me like they liked their other gringo.  on more than one occasion when We arrived at her parents place for a visit her dad would get down the bottle of Tequila and we would get drunk together, and she would have to drive us home.  Even her dad gave us a big approval.  After we got engaged the sister moved from the small border town to our big city, and that is when the BS hit the fan.  She would make things up, such as seeing me with another woman, etc.  Which caused problems between the two of us.  One time she did see me with a blonde and went nuts.  I proved to her that the blonde was my sister and I thought finally we could have a break thru.  I could prove she was lieing.  It even got so bad that she got my fiancé to go to counseling, which caused us more problems.  I finally figured out who the counselor was and literally busted in on him and demanded to know why he was trying to break me and my fiancé up.  One session with me and he told my GF that it was her sister who was the trouble maker, she was full of hate for men from her divorce.  But it changed nothing she continued to half way believe the c__p, that her sister was spewing about me.  I refused to marry her until she got things settled with her sister.  She kept pushing for us to set a date and I kept refusing until she got the feud with her sister settled.  It never happened and one day she walked out of my life.   

Thank you for sharing your story. I'm so sorry that things didn't work out for you, family problems can put such strain on relationships. I hope you've moved on into a happy relationship. 

I'm hoping my situation with Clive doesn't cause any deeper harm, like the situation you faced with the sister. Clive has been visiting his older siblings and parents quite a bit and I really hope he's not running his mouth and telling lies about me to try get them on his side. Luckily for me, he has a reputation of being quite an unreasonable person so I'm counting on them not putting much weight on his words. It sucks because I love the family and really want to be a welcomed part of it. 

[Sharron Hallet]

9 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Good riddance. Even if you guys WERE genuinely rude in some ways, you were never informed, the matter was never civilly discussed. Civil discussion of differences does not seem to be a strong point here. You were tried and convicted without notice of poorly defined crimes by the GF. You didn't cause any rifts in the family, she did. Some people are like that. Pretty drama queen-ish IMO.

A 2 bedroom apt is probably way too small for the four of you anyhow.

A side note, personally I wouldn't be placing too many bets on the brash conservative and the incense burner staying together TOO long anyhow (although you never know).

You're so right 👏 if we had just sat down together at the beginning and had a civil, adult discussion, this whole mess could've been avoided. I know I'm to blame here too, I should've asked for us all to have a chat when I saw tensions rising. 

Although I'd love for Lilly to be out of the picture, my fear is that she leaves Clive and blames the current situation. Then Clive will always blame me and Daniel for pushing her away. She is his first girlfriend in about five years (despite him endlessly trying to find a gf) so I doubt he'll move on quickly. 

[mark clemson]

On 7/5/2020 at 1:31 AM, Sharron Hallet said:

Although I'd love for Lilly to be out of the picture, my fear is that she leaves Clive and blames the current situation. Then Clive will always blame me and Daniel for pushing her away. She is his first girlfriend in about five years (despite him endlessly trying to find a gf) so I doubt he'll move on quickly. 

That certainly might happen, but - in truth relationships don't end because of something like this. They're now moved out and what transpires from here is on them.

From what you say, she's a "pain" and he's probably desperate enough at this point to cling to and put up with just about anything. So what she says will unfortunately go for a while I think.

Clive may find it easier to blame you for his issues than, say, his looks, personality, and social status or that now that he's finally found someone, she's a prima donna who's not actually that into him.

I wouldn't let all that worry you too much - they're HIS issues. He'll just have to figure out how to be better with women or settle for "difficult" ones.

[elaine567]

Close brothers and twins often fall out when there are women involved.
My guess Clive would have been a lot happier if Daniel was single and they could continue the twin thing without the OP getting in the way.
He would have had the undivided attention of both Lilly and Daniel.
As it was, Daniel and the OP were a team, and there was no room for him. He was no longer "special". He thus resents the OP.
So unable to get what he wants, he throws his toys out of pram.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

So far there is nothing of any substance presented as the problem here.

 

Just a manipulative "twin" brother to your boyfriend playing the stupid games used by small-minded people when trying to gain something from  others.

 

When this read started, I thought something relating to twin life  was going to be the issue, but that didn't materialize either.

 

With some people, there just isn't anything you can do...  and you shouldn't give-in to early instincts which are to seemingly make restitution for concerns/wrong-doings which never existed in the first place.