Meeting as 'friends' after dating?

[Wiseman2]

47 minutes ago, babybrowns said:

Hello everyone,

Your insights are all very helpful and once again I thank you for them. I would like to provide an update;

Knowing that I just couldn’t continue seeing this man, I left him a message. I confessed to still liking him more than a friend and thus said a friendship can’t continue when only one person has these feelings, and wished him luck. I also thought I’d take the opportunity to once and for all, ask him why he disappeared on me that time in the middle of us dating when I thought all was going well. 

He responded that he really doesn’t want to lose me as a friend and that please could we keep that going. He also gave me the reasons for disappearing. He said that he felt I wasn’t keen enough at the start and that he was getting mixed feelings from me when he wanted to get things moving faster than I was willing to.

He is referring to when he was bringing up marriage and summer getaways and I kept saying “I’m enjoying it but let’s get to know each other a bit more first” (if interested please see the thread I posted on here a few months back, on what to do when a guy wants to move too fast).

1. In truth I really don’t feel I want to lose this guy from my life. Perhaps I’ll see him once or twice more to assess whether he truly has no chance of rekindling. But the last meet-up really wasn’t that fun for me, seeing his loss of care from the old days. Really not sure 😕

Don't be demoted to FWB, based on false hopes. Make a clean break and free yourself to date local and interested men.

[babybrowns]

1 hour ago, Acacia98 said:

Gosh. This guy actually does not care about you, not even as a friend. His empathy for you is zero. You tell him it's too difficult for you to remain friends and he insists that you remain friends? So to hell with your feelings? His convenience comes before your emotional well-being? That is unkind, callous even. If he had any ounce of sympathy for you, he would have given you space with the possibility of reestablishing friendship later, when you felt comfortable. Someone who liked you wouldn't want to see you in pain, especially not if the pain was somehow connected to him.

I'm glad our previous advice was helpful, babybrowns. And I hope you can choose to put your well-being and happiness first and cut off links with this guy. If you're still having difficulty doing that, try thinking of emotional injury as physical injury. You got hurt, maybe you sprained your ankle. At this point, it doesn't matter whose fault it is. What matters is that you have an injury and you need to rest and put your leg up so that it can heal. This guy, your "friend," knows you sprained your ankle, but is insiting that you go hiking this afternoon. Really think about how that makes you feel.

Now ask yourself this: would you ignore your injury and go hiking with him or would you recognize that he was being ridiculous and decide to do what was best for you?

 

I agree 100% with this, thank you very much for it. It does help me a lot to think of it like that as well. Due to my liking for him though, it is difficult for me to cut ties altogether. 

The nagging thought I have, is that while he is still single and hasn’t yet met someone, I want to see if spending some time together has any chance of rekindling his feelings. If it doesn’t happen it doesn’t happen, but atleast I’ll have no regrets about pulling away without trying.

[salparadise]

On 7/22/2020 at 6:14 AM, Acacia98 said:

Well, I'm guessing he doesn't hate you. If you treat him well, it makes him feel good about himself. Some guys will keep women in their lives who boost their egos, who make them feel good about themselves. But they don't necessarily feel passionate about them. It's similar to the way some women will friendzone guys who love them but then keep them around...

 

On 7/22/2020 at 10:32 AM, stillafool said:

He treated you terribly and now you are going along with whatever he wants again.  If someone doesn't treat you properly you do what is best for you not them.  If you cave to their desires you are showing them you are desperate for any attention from them.

I don't know about these absolute rules/presumptions with respect to friends and the friendzone situations. It looks quite different depending on which side of the equation you're on. @stillafool I don't get how you conclude that he treated her terribly. He just gave up on the pursuit. He told her that it was due to her lack of reciprocation, which I totally get. He seemed to be love bombing (talking too soon about the future and marriage, etc.) while she was feigning demure. She wanted him to continue pursuing against resistance, and he wanted some encouragement that they were aligned. They were dancing to the same tune, but were out of step.

I have been on both sides of this friendship-friendzone dilemma recently. @Acacia98 is correct when she says that he doesn't hate her, but I would go further to say that he likes her and means no harm. Friendzoning serves as a soft rejection, usually intended to minimize hurt and humiliation. The problem is that it's no consolation to the one being demoted... or should we say sidetracked. Friends and romantic interest are not degrees of the same, they're different categories.

I think the lesson here is, timing is critical. For the women... when a man is making his bid he's going out on a limb emotionally and being vulnerable. If you like him too, give him encouragement. This state of one-sided vulnerability is not sustainable. If you leave him dangling in order to avoid showing some vulnerability yourself, the window of opportunity will close at some point.

The woman I was pursuing seemed to have trouble with vulnerability too. We had lockdown at an inopportune time and we weren't able to progress things naturally. Finally, I put my cards on the table and sort of got shot down (the word friends was employed). I told her in that case, I must go. It has been almost three months and I have not contacted her. I still wonder if she actually had no interest or if she was just unable to tolerate vulnerability once the ante was raised. But I took her literally and disappeared completely. Friends is no consolation prize when your heart feels desire.

 

*I dislike how the ambiguity of the word friends is so often leveraged to conflate the disparate concepts of friendship and romance. 

 

 

[elaine567]

26 minutes ago, salparadise said:

He told her that it was due to her lack of reciprocation, which I totally get

Yes maybe or he told her that  to get himself out of a tight spot...
"It was YOUR fault I acted so badly..."
He ghosted her, which is not the nicest or kindest thing to do, is it?... so "treated her terribly" is not far off.

[babybrowns]

I am thinking about asking him to meet up and clear the air over coffee, I'm planning on visiting friends in his town again next week so will see if he's around. The texts that we exchanged about this weren't too clear and weren't the best way to leave things, a face to face would be much better. We do get on well in person so I feel it would be good to clear out any misconceptions over coffee.

I do want him to know that I always was keen since he obviously had doubts about that which I was unaware of, it might not make any difference now but atleast he'll know the facts before we part again. I feel that a nice tete-a-tete would be a good turning point to see whether we both come out wanting to be friends or wanting to part ways for good if we still don't reach an understanding, and wish each other luck before saying goodbye.

[salparadise]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Yes maybe or he told her that  to get himself out of a tight spot...
"It was YOUR fault I acted so badly..."
He ghosted her, which is not the nicest or kindest thing to do, is it?... so "treated her terribly" is not far off.

Eh, I just don't see it in such absolute terms. I also don't think he ghosted her as he has been responsive and they are still in contact. What happened is that he lost hope and ceased pursuit. Are there rules governing a man's obligation to announce such intention? I don't suppose a woman has ever lost interest and told a man that it was his fault... nah, that just wouldn't ever happen.

Edited July 25, 2020 by salparadise

[elaine567]

11 minutes ago, salparadise said:

I also don't think he ghosted her

On 7/11/2020 at 6:01 PM, babybrowns said:

He seemed very keen, was talking about the future with me, wanting to plan a summer getaway together, and even hinting at his long-term goal of getting married. 

But when the country went into lockdown, he suddenly disappeared and ghosted me.

[introverted1]

Is it still ghosting if you've only had 2 dates?

On 7/11/2020 at 1:01 PM, babybrowns said:

I was dating a guy for a couple of months towards the start of the year. Long-distance (2-hour drive away) and his job is very demanding, so we only met in person twice.

The idea of having long-term plans and hints of marriage after 2 dates is pretty nuts, imo.

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, introverted1 said:

The idea of having long-term plans and hints of marriage after 2 dates is pretty nuts, imo.

Yes it gives a false sense of intimacy, and can be a part of the "game" of some men.
It implies "seriousness" and for a woman looking for a relationship is exactly what she wants to hear...
Here it seems he baited the hook threw it into the water then something else caught his attention and he forgot all about it...

[lana-banana]

On 7/25/2020 at 12:07 PM, babybrowns said:

I am thinking about asking him to meet up and clear the air over coffee, I'm planning on visiting friends in his town again next week so will see if he's around. The texts that we exchanged about this weren't too clear and weren't the best way to leave things, a face to face would be much better. We do get on well in person so I feel it would be good to clear out any misconceptions over coffee.

Arrrrrrgh! No, no, no, no, no! 

There will never be a moment of "clarity" or "closure" as long as you are still clinging to the fantasy of a relationship with this guy. He has told you and shown you in no uncertain terms that he is not interested. The why or the how or the when doesn't matter; he does not want to date you, and no amount of pretty dresses or cute strolls through the park will change this fact. You have already forced him to reject you again - nothing about that situation was unambiguous! You do not want the pain of making him do it a third time. 

To repeat, there is nothing to clear up. This is beyond over, it's well past done. Your insistence that you have to see him is like a junkie wanting a hit to prove that they're done with drugs; it's not about moving on, it's feeding the addiction. There is absolutely nothing this man has to offer you except for increasingly brutal rejections. Closure and clarity will happen the morning you wake up, go about your business, and halfway through the day realize you haven't even thought about him.

Edited July 26, 2020 by lana-banana

[babybrowns]

19 hours ago, lana-banana said:Arrrrrrgh! No, no, no, no, no! 

There will never be a moment of "clarity" or "closure" as long as you are still clinging to the fantasy of a relationship with this guy. He has told you and shown you in no uncertain terms that he is not interested. The why or the how or the when doesn't matter; he does not want to date you, and no amount of pretty dresses or cute strolls through the park will change this fact. You have already forced him to reject you again - nothing about that situation was unambiguous! You do not want the pain of making him do it a third time. 

To repeat, there is nothing to clear up. This is beyond over, it's well past done. Your insistence that you have to see him is like a junkie wanting a hit to prove that they're done with drugs; it's not about moving on, it's feeding the addiction. There is absolutely nothing this man has to offer you except for increasingly brutal rejections. Closure and clarity will happen the morning you wake up, go about your business, and halfway through the day realize you haven't even thought about him.

I agree with you completely and thanks for this. I agree it is quite addictive, it just easier said than done. I do have some unanswered questions after the 6-month investment that I feel a face to face meetup would resolve and give closure to; the text from him where he vaguely outlined the reasons was quite limited.

I might be in this guys neck of the woods next week to visit some people. On the back of him saying he really wants to keep a friendship with me and that I should let him know what I want, I contacted him to say that although I'm currently unsure about a friendship, that it would be nice to meet up for a coffee and clear the air on a few things first. I said this could be a prelude to deciding whether we do want to be friends or whether it's better to just part ways completely. My tone was warm and friendly as always. 

And, he ghosted me again!!

 

 

[lana-banana]

1 hour ago, babybrowns said:

I agree with you completely and thanks for this. I agree it is quite addictive, it just easier said than done. I do have some unanswered questions after the 6-month investment that I feel a face to face meetup would resolve and give closure to; the text from him where he vaguely outlined the reasons was quite limited.

I might be in this guys neck of the woods next week to visit some people. On the back of him saying he really wants to keep a friendship with me and that I should let him know what I want, I contacted him to say that although I'm currently unsure about a friendship, that it would be nice to meet up for a coffee and clear the air on a few things first. I said this could be a prelude to deciding whether we do want to be friends or whether it's better to just part ways completely. My tone was warm and friendly as always. 

And, he ghosted me again!!

Oh dear. Well, you don't need any of us to tell you that was a bad idea, do you?

"The text from him where he vaguely outlined the reasons was quite limited." - be realistic. Who is ever 100% honest about their reasons for not wanting to be with someone? "Sorry, you look like my sister and it freaks me out." "You're terrible in bed." "I think I'm in love with someone else." "I thought you were cute but I just don't see myself marrying you." "I hate your dog." "You're so messy I can't stand it." -- who would ever say anything like that? We are conditioned to be polite and we don't like saying things that could hurt someone's feelings. Of course he's going to be vague and dishonest; we all are. But the important thing is it does not matter what his reasons are. It never does. The ONLY thing that matters is he doesn't want a romantic relationship with you. That is all the information you need. Someone who wants you in their life will keep you in their life. If someone decides they would rather risk dying alone than spend more time with you, that's all you need to know. You cannot convince anyone to want you. Why waste time on someone who decided they don't want to be in your life?

Furthermore, you're not entitled to more clearly defined reasons (whatever that would mean), a face-to-face talk, more explanation, etc. He owes you nothing at this point. As I said, if you kept pushing the issue he'd be forced to reject you again; you did and he has. Is this enough for you to leave well enough alone? You'd be well-served to block his contact information so you don't try to reach out again. 

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

Do you guys not understand that the more you tell her how bad this guy is, the more attracted to him she is?

OP, i've watched you go back and fourth in multiple responses here and its clear to me that even though reason is being brought to your attention, you are just interested in pursuing this guy regardless, so just go and get it out of your system.

[babybrowns]

17 hours ago, lana-banana said:

Oh dear. Well, you don't need any of us to tell you that was a bad idea, do you?

"The text from him where he vaguely outlined the reasons was quite limited." - be realistic. Who is ever 100% honest about their reasons for not wanting to be with someone? "Sorry, you look like my sister and it freaks me out." "You're terrible in bed." "I think I'm in love with someone else." "I thought you were cute but I just don't see myself marrying you." "I hate your dog." "You're so messy I can't stand it." -- who would ever say anything like that? We are conditioned to be polite and we don't like saying things that could hurt someone's feelings. Of course he's going to be vague and dishonest; we all are. But the important thing is it does not matter what his reasons are. It never does. The ONLY thing that matters is he doesn't want a romantic relationship with you. That is all the information you need. Someone who wants you in their life will keep you in their life. If someone decides they would rather risk dying alone than spend more time with you, that's all you need to know. You cannot convince anyone to want you. Why waste time on someone who decided they don't want to be in your life?

Furthermore, you're not entitled to more clearly defined reasons (whatever that would mean), a face-to-face talk, more explanation, etc. He owes you nothing at this point. As I said, if you kept pushing the issue he'd be forced to reject you again; you did and he has. Is this enough for you to leave well enough alone? You'd be well-served to block his contact information so you don't try to reach out again. 

I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear enough here. This meetup which I suggested is following on from his specific request to stay friends despite me saying goodbye, not me feeling he is 'indebted' and thus pursuing him. In order for me to think about friendship with this person, I would need a few things cleared up. I didn't make it look like an interrogation, just a friendly chat over coffee which can then pave the way for a nice friendship. If he ignores this suggestion and doesn't so much as even reply to it, he clearly had no real desire to be friends, and it's best that I know that than be left with the false impression which he gave me.

Edited July 28, 2020 by babybrowns

[elaine567]

People tend to throw the "friend" suggestion around a lot, but few really mean it, as once the relationship is gone, then why be friends?
What is the point?
What they mean is " I am not your enemy" not "I want to meet up for coffee once a week..."
As you are invested you jumped at the chance of keeping things going, even just as friends, but he had no intention of being a friend with some girl he rejected and chose to ghost, hence why he flaked.

[lana-banana]

1 hour ago, babybrowns said:

I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear enough here. This meetup which I suggested is following on from his specific request to stay friends despite me saying goodbye, not me feeling he is 'indebted' and thus pursuing him. In order for me to think about friendship with this person, I would need a few things cleared up. I didn't make it look like an interrogation, just a friendly chat over coffee which can then pave the way for a nice friendship. If he ignores this suggestion and doesn't so much as even reply to it, he clearly had no real desire to be friends, and it's best that I know that than be left with the false impression which he gave me.

You are being incredibly literal. How old are you? Is this your first breakup (that's not even the right word here, since you only met in person twice)? "Oh, I want to be friends"; "let's stay friends"; "I really value your friendship" are all very common social niceties and white lies. As Elaine said above, "let's be friends" means "I don't hate you", not "I want to actively stay involved in your life". You have to judge people by what they do, not what they say.

"If he ignores this suggestion and doesn't so much as even reply to it, he clearly had no real desire to be friends" - his actions have already demonstrated this! A real friend sends you occasional texts, funny memes, tell you about their lives, etc. This guy is not doing that. You are the one who has to keep pushing him to pay attention to you. You made a big production about driving near him to go out for coffee, he gives you abundant evidence that he's not interested, and then you push him for more. You may not think your message came off as an interrogation, but I guarantee you he read it and thought "wow, she really cannot let go." It doesn't matter how "warm and friendly" your tone was; it still comes off as obviously desperate and clingy. 

You already know that a sincere friend would have responded to you by now. Block his contact information, erase all your messages with him, and start looking for someone new.

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by lana-banana