Input needed

[Stevnx3]

23 minutes ago, Subversa said:

He says he will show me that I can trust him with his actions

Has he? Seriously?

[Subversa]

1 minute ago, Stevnx3 said:

Has he? Seriously?

Yes he has.

[Stevnx3]

Just now, Subversa said:

Yes he has.

I see. 

All but admitting to the PA. So puzzling, you know? I mean, he knows where you stand in this matter. He knows what you are rightfully asking him, will help ease the situation.

Be an open book. Let you know all that he has kept from you. To gain back your trust, all but in this one thing..Seems like he would be willing! Who wouldn't want peace to return to their hurt spouse / marriage?

[Subversa]

1 minute ago, Stevnx3 said:

I see. 

All but admitting to the PA. So puzzling, you know? I mean, he knows where you stand in this matter. He knows what you are rightfully asking him, will help ease the situation.

Be an open book. Let you know all that he has kept from you. To gain back your trust, all but in this one thing..Seems like he would be willing! Who wouldn't want peace to return to their hurt spouse / marriage?

I think he wants to preserve that last piece of his image infront of me. He might also think I might walk out after finding out. Either way, he made his choice.

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, Stevnx3 said:

Who wouldn't want peace to return to their hurt spouse / marriage?

Someone who thinks if he tells the absolute truth, he will lose his marriage...

[Stevnx3]

1 minute ago, Subversa said:

I think he wants to preserve that last piece of his image infront of me. He might also think I might walk out after finding out. Either way, he made his choice.

Agreed. Well, he should have been thinking better. His image is already in the gutter. He should explain it all to you before it is far too late. What will you do if he never explains it? Divorce? 

Also, it may help to tell him that! 

[Stevnx3]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

Someone who thinks if he tells the absolute truth, he will lose his marriage...

There is that...

That's the risk of thinking with the wrong muscle. 

If Subversa told him all of this, and I know she has, then he can only blame himself for what comes next. Is this pride before the fall or ashamed before the doom? 

[Subversa]

1 minute ago, Stevnx3 said:

Agreed. Well, he should have been thinking better. His image is already in the gutter. He should explain it all to you before it is far too late. What will you do if he never explains it? Divorce? 

Also, it may help to tell him that! 

What would you do in my position? Yes, I am open with him as to what I am thinking or where we stand. I ask for his input equally.

[Stevnx3]

8 minutes ago, Subversa said:

What would you do in my position? Yes, I am open with him as to what I am thinking or where we stand. I ask for his input equally.

I would divorce him. Time is fleeting. Why waste it on a lost cause? Why stay in a situation that I feel miserable, loathing and where trust cannot exist.

If he is willing to cheat on me, then I have every right to know everything. If he is unwilling to respond, so be it.

But I sense that you do not want to go through with a divorce...yet. 

It would be more difficult being in the midst of it. But this I would still do.

[Subversa]

7 minutes ago, Stevnx3 said:

I would divorce him. Time is fleeting. Why waste it on a lost cause? Why stay in a situation that I feel miserable, loathing and where trust cannot exist.

If he is willing to cheat on me, then I have every right to know everything. If he is unwilling to respond, so be it.

But I sense that you do not want to go through with a divorce...yet. 

It would be more difficult being in the midst of it. But this I would still do.

Thankyou for the reply. Yes, I  guess its difficult for me to see the forest for the trees.

[Stevnx3]

2 minutes ago, Subversa said:

Thankyou for the reply. Yes, I  guess its difficult for me to see the forest for the trees.

You're doing fine. You are here, talking and working through it with all of us. I am sure you will get it figured out. It isn't easy, I know.

Just know that we are here for you

I still think divorce beats countering an affair with an affair!

[BaileyB]

41 minutes ago, Subversa said:

He might also think I might walk out after finding out.

But now, he has built it up into a much bigger thing than it otherwise might have been. Like a child who does something wrong and then lies to cover it up... things tend to go much easier on the child who tells the truth and accepts responsibility. I fear that his unwillingness to answer the question is his answer... those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.  

Again, he is fostering distrust and creating the very thing that he says he does not want. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, Subversa said:

No. Okay. It is tough to even admit this infront of internet strangers. I was sometimes short, rude, inattentive and dismissive. 

You and everyone else... nobody is the perfect partner, all the time. I just got home from work and I was asked “why do you seem grumpy tonight...”  I’m not grumpy, I’m just tired after a long day at work. My partner is home on holidays... 😂

Edited July 13, 2020 by BaileyB

[Subversa]

1 hour ago, BaileyB said:

But now, he has built it up into a much bigger thing than it otherwise might have been. Like a child who does something wrong and then lies to cover it up... things tend to go much easier on the child who tells the truth and accepts responsibility. I fear that his unwillingness to answer the question is his answer... those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.  

Again, he is fostering distrust and creating the very thing that he says he does not want. 

Yes, that is true. This has been his go-to method ever since the affair came to light. His instinct is to hide/minimize and lie about this. Weirdly, he isn't like this with other matters in life.

*shrugs*

He can keep his secrets. 

[Subversa]

 

1 hour ago, BaileyB said:

You and everyone else... nobody is the perfect partner, all the time. I just got home from work and I was asked “why do you seem grumpy tonight...”  I’m not grumpy, I’m just tired after a long day at work. My partner is home on holidays... 😂

Yes that is absolutely true. 

Its so stressful to be out in these conditions in the first place! Stay safe.

[BaileyB]

1 minute ago, Subversa said:

Yes, that is true. This has been his go-to method ever since the affair came to light. His instinct is to hide/minimize and lie about this. Weirdly, he isn't like this with other matters in life.

He can keep his secrets. 

That really makes you wonder why he is keeping his cards so close to his chest. It is strange that he’s a model husband and totally transparent with everything else except this one thing... 

[Subversa]

7 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

That really makes you wonder why he is keeping his cards so close to his chest. It is strange that he’s a model husband and totally transparent with everything else except this one thing... 

I wish i could vilify him or point out faults where they don't exist but that would just be lying. It would make everything easy but I would be equally wrong and guilty of putting blame where it doesn't exist. The circumstances at home mainly cause my inability to action just for my peace of mind.

He just came home and has picked up my favorite dinner on the way back. Go figure.

[Stevnx3]

2 minutes ago, Subversa said:

I wish i could vilify him or point out faults where they don't exist but that would just be lying. It would make everything easy but I would be equally wrong and guilty of putting blame where it doesn't exist. The circumstances at home mainly cause my inability to action just for my peace of mind.

He just came home and has picked up my favorite dinner on the way back. Go figure.

Well go eat and relax a little. Let all this sink in.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

3 hours ago, Subversa said:

I asked him if he is willing to take a polygraph test to answer that question. He said he is and willing to take me up on that anytime. I didn't schedule the test because I got so frustrated with him. I now realize it was a mistake and I should have taken him up on that.

Please schedule this. What is stopping you?

Also, FWIW...I put the prize cup/thanks on 2 of @elaine567's comments because as I was reading them, I thought:

*****BINGO!!!!*****

Spot on assessments imho.

[BaileyB]

51 minutes ago, Subversa said:

He just came home and has picked up my favorite dinner on the way back. Go figure.

He must have known we were talking about him...

Edited July 14, 2020 by BaileyB

[HadMeOverABarrel]

3 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Some men(usually) believe an emotional affair is not really cheating and that only a physical affair is a real affair.
By not admitting to Subversa he had a physical affair, then he thinks she will view him in a better light, and he can pretend it never really happened.
He is not that man...
Of course it may not have been physical but 2 years... unlikely IMO.  

YES!!!

My xMM tried to rationalize his behavior in this way. Since we had not gone 'all the way,' he was still being good in his mind.

Finally one day I asked him to his face, "What is cheating to you?" We were sitting on a sofa facing each other, completely dressed, not touching, having a causal conversation.

He answered, "Intercourse."

Then paused, looked away, and said, "Maybe this."

He knew. His wife had no idea about me or that he was visiting with me. He just did mental gymnastics to justify it to himself.

Another conversation I said what's he's doing to her really isn't fair or right even if she's not very kind. He responded that she's done plenty of unkind things to him implying no guilt on his part.

I told him it wasn't right for me either. He said he wasn't forcing my involvement. I said I take responsibility for my involvement, but he is responsible for any time he deceived me (eg withheld facts) that would have influenced my decisions. He didn't like that, but couldn't argue against it. 

My point is...all that gaslighting crap they do to the BS they do to the OW, too! I had to be very specific and basically spell out that I saw clearly his manipulations before he would admit. I feel this is similar to what the BS goes through after Dday. 

Edited to add: Annnd...I think they lie to themselves too to justify it all!

Edited July 14, 2020 by HadMeOverABarrel

[HadMeOverABarrel]

oh, and if you want to know what he said to me as to why he held back intercourse, he said it would lead to him losing control of his emotions.

Maybe this is similar to your situation, or maybe not, but it does illustrate the madness of it all!

[Subversa]

1 hour ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

YES!!!

My xMM tried to rationalize his behavior in this way. Since we had not gone 'all the way,' he was still being good in his mind.

Finally one day I asked him to his face, "What is cheating to you?" We were sitting on a sofa facing each other, completely dressed, not touching, having a causal conversation.

He answered, "Intercourse."

Then paused, looked away, and said, "Maybe this."

He knew. His wife had no idea about me or that he was visiting with me. He just did mental gymnastics to justify it to himself.

Another conversation I said what's he's doing to her really isn't fair or right even if she's not very kind. He responded that she's done plenty of unkind things to him implying no guilt on his part.

I told him it wasn't right for me either. He said he wasn't forcing my involvement. I said I take responsibility for my involvement, but he is responsible for any time he deceived me (eg withheld facts) that would have influenced my decisions. He didn't like that, but couldn't argue against it. 

My point is...all that gaslighting crap they do to the BS they do to the OW, too! I had to be very specific and basically spell out that I saw clearly his manipulations before he would admit. I feel this is similar to what the BS goes through after Dday. 

Edited to add: Annnd...I think they lie to themselves too to justify it all!

Yes, as much as it hurt to read those comments, they did hit the nail on the head. However, I feel he doesn’t avoid that subject not out of malice/intention to deceive but out of selfishness and self-preservation. 
Yeah, WH also drew some boundaries in those conversations and she didn’t want there to be any boundaries at all 🤮. 
 
There was definitely vilifying me by WH in conversations with the MOW. I later asked him about few specific things he said, and asked him why he lied about me, he had no answer. Just nada. I wasn’t the horrible wench they both were portraying me to be. 

I now think about those things and laugh and laugh. None of those were true. It really really hurt to read him lying about me like that at that time. Now it’s just laughable. 

[Subversa]

1 hour ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

oh, and if you want to know what he said to me as to why he held back intercourse, he said it would lead to him losing control of his emotions.

Maybe this is similar to your situation, or maybe not, but it does illustrate the madness of it all!

It does make sense. 
Your MM sounds like he gave too many of these twisty justifications too. It sounds like he was just trying to assuage his concience about betraying his W. 
What reason did he give later then for going all the way? 

[HadMeOverABarrel]

39 minutes ago, Subversa said:

It does make sense. 
Your MM sounds like he gave too many of these twisty justifications too. It sounds like he was just trying to assuage his concience about betraying his W. 
What reason did he give later then for going all the way? 

Wierdly, we never passed home plate (using the high school euphemism of bases). We were as close as two could be with that on occasions, but there was always some little hiccup when we were about to. Plus, the months of interest in it waxed and waned between us on it. First I wouldn't because I learned he was married. Then when I was so emotionally invested and wanted to, he wouldn't. After time I got sick of him dancing around it (he would talk but not follow through), I lost interest in it...like the time he messaged me from the Paris airport on the way back from his family vacation and tried to get sexy flirty, I told him I'm not his sex doll. Lol.

The time we came closest to crossing that last line, the hotel front desk attendant kept calling like every three minutes. xMM didn't want to take the phone off the receiver for fear the attendant would bang on the door. He told me he couldn't perform with the constant interruption of the phone ringing. The very last time he suggested we meet up to consummate, I told him I lost interest since he was stand-offish the previous time we met (which was after hotel attendant incident) during which he had said it seemed my technique indicated I'd had a lot of practice. I found that highly offensive!!! That turned me off to being sexually available to him. Such a stupid, incorrect, insulting thing to say!

Sooo we never actually did THAT!