How to be more desireable to search better

[ZA Dater]

I think so much about dating is to do with perceived value. The super fit guys, they have a higher perceived value than the average guys etc. A lot of the time I wonder if it really is possible to actually raise ones own value BUT how much of ones value is rooted in personality?

As part of what I am hoping will be a journey to making myself a better value proposition I am looking at a lot of things.

For example I can get super fit but how does that serve me if I am shy? I can try get outgoing but how does that serve me if I have an ugly face? I think you can see where I am going with this. For me this is partly to try and search better but also in some way to just improve.

On the other hand I am fairly happy with life, apart from being alone all the time and never having had any of the relationship experience. I suppose an argument could be made for a change of mind set, somehow convince myself to look people I don't but that's going to be almost impossible.

Things I am doing

1: Working out more at home

2 Taking whatever positive I can find from the day

3 I have to use OLD because there is no other alternative but reducing the number of apps drastically.

What I always find hard to understand people I know keep telling me what I nice guy I am, I have actually told them to not tell me this because frankly its window dressing, were it true I wouldn't be a "never had a gf at 36" guy.

Guys who have done this, what did you find added the most value to you and improved the quality of ladies you were able to attract. Been reading a bit, watching some videos and I have to sat people are just very good at the flirting charm routine. If there is one thing some people say about me I can be abrupt, not really my intention but you can see how that would make flirting and charming difficult for me.

When I look at people who do search with success the one common thing is unreal levels of confidence, they just don't seem to have rejection as an option whereas the only real confidence I derive is when I am successful at something, they are confident irrespective of the result.

Do you think there is a place for guys who simply just take a very cold and dare I say rather go through the motions approach to looking, anyone here ever fall into that category and if so what did you find benefitted you? 

Do you think there is any correlation between ones ability to make friends and ones ability to date? I was reading about a few couples who went the friend route first, I always thought this was the way to go but apparently it doesn't often really work out that way for many people?

A lot of what I am trying to do now is reconcile the past to try and move forward in some way.

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

how much of ones value is rooted in personality?

Personality is going to be more about matching than overall value. Some people will like your personality and others won’t. Just like you like some people better than others.

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

For example I can get super fit but how does that serve me if I am shy? I can try get outgoing but how does that serve me if I have an ugly face?

There are things you can control, and others you can’t. Focus on what you can. Also, shyness is not a personality trait; it’s a fear of rejection that prevents you from showing your true personality to people.

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

When I look at people who do search with success the one common thing is unreal levels of confidence, they just don't seem to have rejection as an option whereas the only real confidence I derive is when I am successful at something, they are confident irrespective of the result.

I had success, but not unreal levels of confidence. For example, I wasn’t confident enough to cold approach, and I certainly didn’t think I could “get” any woman I wanted. I just didn’t care about being rejected because a rejection just meant we weren’t a good match. I also did plenty of rejecting. That’s a pretty necessary part of dating.

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Do you think there is any correlation between ones ability to make friends and ones ability to date? I was reading about a few couples who went the friend route first, I always thought this was the way to go but apparently it doesn't often really work out that way for many people?

A lot of what I am trying to do now is reconcile the past to try and move forward in some way.

There probably is a correlation, but I doubt it’s super strong. Most guys I know don’t have a lot of friends and certainly don’t make many, if any new friends often.

 

Saying you want to “move forward in some way” is too ambiguous. Set a definite goal.  That will help you more than anything. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Weezy1973

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Personality is going to be more about matching than overall value. Some people will like your personality and others won’t. Just like you like some people better than others.

 

There are things you can control, and others you can’t. Focus on what you can. Also, shyness is not a personality trait; it’s a fear of rejection that prevents you from showing your true personality to people.

 

I had success, but not unreal levels of confidence. For example, I wasn’t confident enough to cold approach, and I certainly didn’t think I could “get” any woman I wanted. I just didn’t care about being rejected because a rejection just meant we weren’t a good match. I also did plenty of rejecting. That’s a pretty necessary part of dating.

 

There probably is a correlation, but I doubt it’s super strong. Most guys I know don’t have a lot of friends and certainly don’t make many, if any new friends often.

 

Saying you want to “move forward in some way” is too ambiguous. Set a definite goal.  That will help you more than anything. 

For whatever reason my logic goes either cold approach or OLD, there doesn't seem to be a lot of middle ground there, to me at least, maybe I am wrong? Just reading and watching and seeing the things I cant control, which are few really.

I think in part the goal is to find some degree of success how ever that is to be defined, maybe because I saw someone on Bumble I met up with and really liked but she totally ghosted me. I do this a lot, go back and try figure out why the result wasn't more what I wanted. Not really ideal but I look at the things like getting fitter and part of me wonders what the point is, so the way I can justify doing that is to do it for me rather than with any goal in mind.

To be truthful, I need something about me that makes me attract people, I need to have something people find attractive, at the moment I don't and probably never have had that, when I read and look the people who seem to have success seem to be those who have things to offer and to be blunt I simply don't have any of those things. What I think is important isn't what the market thinks is important so I spend time trying to make myself unique in some way or other in the hope that will appeal to people. 

Do you think you can be yourself and still have value and did you find you needed to be different in order to have value? I am just trying to unpack why good just experiences didn't translate into anything more.

[Weezy1973]

28 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

For whatever reason my logic goes either cold approach or OLD, there doesn't seem to be a lot of middle ground there, to me at least, maybe I am wrong? 

I suspect there are people that do both. Depends on culture as well, where I live cold approaching is pretty rare. I’ve never met anybody who’s done it, although know a few women who have been approached.

 

30 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I think in part the goal is to find some degree of success how ever that is to be defined

You need to define it. This has to be your first step if you want to move forward. Nothing ambiguous. 

 

32 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Do you think you can be yourself and still have value and did you find you needed to be different in order to have value? I am just trying to unpack why good just experiences didn't translate into anything more.

I’d argue you need to be yourself or else there really isn’t any point. You’ll have value to people that like people like you. And that is the point.

 

Just because you meet someone that you’d like to see again, doesn’t have any bearing on whether or not they want to see you again. No need to analyze it anymore than, she wasn’t interested, therefore we’re not a match. Rejection and rejecting is part of the dating process. 

[ZA Dater]

10 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Just because you meet someone that you’d like to see again, doesn’t have any bearing on whether or not they want to see you again. No need to analyze it anymore than, she wasn’t interested, therefore we’re not a match. Rejection and rejecting is part of the dating process. 

I suppose that's true. So I would guess there would be no point in trying again with that person either. Logic would say not as if one was rejected the first time a second time isn't really going to be much better. The only reason I would look at trying again with this person is we really did get along well and when I say try again I am meaning simply friend zone. In my mind if I cant get friend zone to work I would never be able to make dating work, which is maybe right and maybe wrong.

For me I want to try figure out what people don't like, if I could do that I would at least know what specific things to work on.

You mention no cold approaching, so all your interest was from I would assume mutual friends or mutual interests? Here is he problem I have with the one part of that, I have a friend, hugely successful, far more so than me and single so on the odd occasion there are single people around, the all gravitate toward him and not me. How do you compete with that? I find it pretty much impossible. I then tried a different tactic and tried to make friends with other people to try get a better circle of friends and thus meet more people, that didn't work well at all because for the most part these were younger people who are going through the party phase of life. Serious me didn't fit in well there.

I then decided to use my interests again to try meet people, this time I just found older people and absolutely no possibilities there. So I always find it interesting how people met and where.

If I sit down and take a look at the person I am and where I can improve, sure there are areas but probably the biggest issue I have is simply relating to people and them relating to me. I pretty much work 24/7 in the sense my mind never switches off from work and I am always thinking about it so that by implication makes me serious most of the time. But when I look at it, there is much in my life besides work and the few hobbies I have, the same hobbies I used to try and meet people with no success at all.

Do you think I need to simply take up a hobby I don't like for the sole purpose of trying to meet people, I thought about this but then realised the other person will expect me to like something I don't really. At 36 most of my choices now seem to be divorced mothers or what I all outliers. I wont elaborate what they are lest I offend most of the forum. In my mind the ideal for me is either my age no kids, 27-28 career minded. So that's what I generally look for.

Do you ever think in hindsight you would have been better off being friends with some people you ended up dating? I sometimes think that in most instances where I met up with people I really liked I should have probably done friend zone from the very first conversation. Maybe then I would have not been rejected as a date but maybe accepted as a friend, a lot of these dates, in fact most ended with 'well I am not sure if we can date but we could be friends' Of course that never happened but in hindsight maybe I should not have bothered to try date them to begin with.

My personality does not help my dating either, its quite dour and dry which I guess most people don't like but that is just me so I guess I have to accept the person I am will determine the dates I can get.

[Weezy1973]

11 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The only reason I would look at trying again with this person is we really did get along well and when I say try again I am meaning simply friend zone. In my mind if I cant get friend zone to work I would never be able to make dating work, which is maybe right and maybe wrong.

I wouldn’t recommend trying to be friends with her, unless you’re genuinely not interested in her romantically. The friend zone implies you’d like it to be romantic, but she doesn’t see you that way. Being friends means neither person sees the other as a possible dating option.

 

14 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You mention no cold approaching, so all your interest was from I would assume mutual friends or mutual interests?

School, work, mutual friends, and lots of OLD.

 

16 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Here is he problem I have with the one part of that, I have a friend, hugely successful, far more so than me and single so on the odd occasion there are single people around, the all gravitate toward him and not me. How do you compete with that?

I had a couple friends like that as well. Honestly it wasn’t a competition. The types of women that gravitated towards them wouldn’t have been interested in me and therefore weren’t a match.

 

19 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

If I sit down and take a look at the person I am and where I can improve, sure there are areas but probably the biggest issue I have is simply relating to people and them relating to me.

Yup, this is a big issue. It could relate to your shyness, as that might prevent you from opening up and being relatable. Could also be something like Aspergers. 

 

23 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Do you think I need to simply take up a hobby I don't like for the sole purpose of trying to meet people,

No, don’t take up a hobby you don’t like. But you can try new things in the hopes that you might find a new hobby or interest you do like.

 

25 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Do you ever think in hindsight you would have been better off being friends with some people you ended up dating?

No, but there are definitely people I probably shouldn’t have dated in the first place. Although everything is a learning experience and I wouldn’t have found success had I not learned from those mistakes.

 

29 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I sometimes think that in most instances where I met up with people I really liked I should have probably done friend zone from the very first conversation. Maybe then I would have not been rejected as a date but maybe accepted as a friend,

I would recommend not to strive for the friendzone. It’s a waste of time if what you’re looking for is a romantic relationship. Rejection is just part of dating and you need to accept that if you want to date.

 

32 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

My personality does not help my dating either, its quite dour and dry which I guess most people don't like but that is just me so I guess I have to accept the person I am will determine the dates I can get.

Are you dour and dry as a defense mechanism or is that truly who you are? If it’s a defense mechanism then better to let go of the defenses. If it’s who you are, then it is what it is. Some people will actually like you for it, even if most don’t.

[ZA Dater]

23 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

I wouldn’t recommend trying to be friends with her, unless you’re genuinely not interested in her romantically. The friend zone implies you’d like it to be romantic, but she doesn’t see you that way. Being friends means neither person sees the other as a possible dating option.

 

School, work, mutual friends, and lots of OLD.

 

I had a couple friends like that as well. Honestly it wasn’t a competition. The types of women that gravitated towards them wouldn’t have been interested in me and therefore weren’t a match.

 

Yup, this is a big issue. It could relate to your shyness, as that might prevent you from opening up and being relatable. Could also be something like Aspergers. 

 

No, don’t take up a hobby you don’t like. But you can try new things in the hopes that you might find a new hobby or interest you do like.

 

No, but there are definitely people I probably shouldn’t have dated in the first place. Although everything is a learning experience and I wouldn’t have found success had I not learned from those mistakes.

 

I would recommend not to strive for the friendzone. It’s a waste of time if what you’re looking for is a romantic relationship. Rejection is just part of dating and you need to accept that if you want to date.

 

Are you dour and dry as a defense mechanism or is that truly who you are? If it’s a defense mechanism then better to let go of the defenses. If it’s who you are, then it is what it is. Some people will actually like you for it, even if most don’t.

I think you are quite lucky in terms of OLD, some people I know do really well at it and other do really badly at it, its hard to try and see why one does better than the other, ok it actually isn't if I look at purely superficial attributes.

To be fair I never thought of it like that, I just saw attractive people I would have liked to have spent time with.

For example I can sit and talk for hours with someone who works in politics but about an hour is enough for me with a primary school teacher so yes I can talk to almost anyone some people just interest me considerably more. The person who starts her own business is also interesting but perhaps this is just my inherent bias and the way I think. Shyness, I have worked really , really hard to be less shy and have succeeded to a large degree at least in terms of dates. I still have my shy days but far fewer of them.

I am more confident now too but confidence doesn't get me matches on OLD.

I guess the friend zone isn't ideal but to be fair I am not sure I am actually 'dateable' in the sense I don't have much that people actually want but the things good about me would probably make me a better friend. This is where I think I have been going wrong, the things I think I have to offer are ok for a friend but insufficient for a date. Someone  who wants to date will want more than qualities most people have, they want something extra, those generic qualities they find in friends.

One thing I need to figure out is how to be less business like, again I think about work most of the time so that translates into how I communicate to a certain degree. People obviously don't like that.

Goals are good, just hard to actually find one to set when it comes to dating, nothing has ever worked so I don't even know what is attainable or a realistic goal. I just look back at some great potential and I look what came after and there is no escaping the fact as years have gone by there is less and less good potential.

[CaliforniaGirl]

You should refer to this post. Three dozen pages with loads and loads of suggestions. 

 

[ZA Dater]

47 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

You should refer to this post. Three dozen pages with loads and loads of suggestions. 

Not what I am looking for I am looking what people have tried themselves which has worked for them. I am just trying a few different things at the moment in terms of my outlook and how I see things. Tinder for example has been consigned to the deleted folder, only thing I am on now is Bumble where I get almost no matches but I have determined Tinder doesn't work for me, someone I know is very attractive and she had 4500 matches so honestly I am wasting my time on that app.

[CaliforniaGirl]

13 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Not what I am looking for I am looking what people have tried themselves which has worked for them. I am just trying a few different things at the moment in terms of my outlook and how I see things. Tinder for example has been consigned to the deleted folder, only thing I am on now is Bumble where I get almost no matches but I have determined Tinder doesn't work for me, someone I know is very attractive and she had 4500 matches so honestly I am wasting my time on that app.

We have told you. Be 100% honest with your photos. Ask someone who can SEE and HEAR you what they believe the problem is. Seek a therapist. Learn to flirt. Stay in fairly good shape.

You rejected every single concrete suggestion.

Edited July 15, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[basil67]

A couple of suggestions from me.   You know the wine tasting you went on?  You relaxed and started talking to new people, including a woman.   Do more social things like this.

I would also suggest you delve into preconceived ideas about someone’s job and how easily you can talk to them.   You mentioned that you can more comfortably talk to a woman who works in politics than a primary school teacher.   Why is this?   Both women are likely to have interesting lives and thoughts and feelings.   Sure, the political woman may talk politics or world affairs for a bit, but what would you talk about with her for the other hour and a half? 

[Weezy1973]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I think you are quite lucky in terms of OLD, some people I know do really well at it and other do really badly at it, its hard to try and see why one does better than the other, ok it actually isn't if I look at purely superficial attributes.

I’m not superficially attractive. Average looks, below average income, below average height etc. I didn’t get lucky with OLD. I set a goal, and put in quite a bit of effort. And it paid off.

 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

so yes I can talk to almost anyone some people just interest me considerably more. The person who starts her own business is also interesting but perhaps this is just my inherent bias and the way I think

It’s very normal to find some people more interesting than others. The more biases you drop however the better. You don’t really know what someone is going to be like based on their profession. 

 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I guess the friend zone isn't ideal but to be fair I am not sure I am actually 'dateable' in the sense I don't have much that people actually want but the things good about me would probably make me a better friend.

This isn’t true, but believing it to be true will severely hamper your chances of success. And by hamper, I mean eliminate. 

 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:.

One thing I need to figure out is how to be less business like, again I think about work most of the time so that translates into how I communicate to a certain degree. People obviously don't like that.

Or you can keep dating new people that do like it or are equally businesslike. But in general being more well rounded, expanding your interests etc. is a good idea for life satisfaction.

 

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Goals are good, just hard to actually find one to set when it comes to dating, nothing has ever worked so I don't even know what is attainable or a realistic goal. .

Long term relationship? Casual sex? Marriage and kids? Pick a goal. Without a goal you’ll be rudderless and your unsuccessful cycle will continue.

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

A couple of suggestions from me.   You know the wine tasting you went on?  You relaxed and started talking to new people, including a woman.   Do more social things like this.

I would also suggest you delve into preconceived ideas about someone’s job and how easily you can talk to them.   You mentioned that you can more comfortably talk to a woman who works in politics than a primary school teacher.   Why is this?   Both women are likely to have interesting lives and thoughts and feelings.   Sure, the political woman may talk politics or world affairs for a bit, but what would you talk about with her for the other hour and a half? 

I don't have much of an issue talking to people in an environment where I am comfortable. The difference between the two is one interests me the other does not, its like the 5 au pairs I went on dates with, all they could talk about were the kids they looked after, that's fine but not for 2 hours.

The social thing is a good idea which I try do within what I am interested in but there is no potential there at all, just none. Hence I tried going out with a group of students and that was more to try and make friends with a mutual interest but lets just say that didn't really work out that well.

What interests me is people who went from one situation and managed to work and derive what they really wanted. However I haven't met any people who really managed to turn dating around, either they have good success or they have some success or they have no success. Cant say I have ever met anyone who went from no success to good success.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

We have told you. Be 100% honest with your photos. Ask someone who can SEE and HEAR you what they believe the problem is. Seek a therapist. Learn to flirt. Stay in fairly good shape.

You rejected every single concrete suggestion.

How many of these things did you do and how much did doing them improve your dating life?

[mark clemson]

On 7/14/2020 at 5:21 AM, ZA Dater said:

Do you think there is a place for guys who simply just take a very cold and dare I say rather go through the motions approach to looking, anyone here ever fall into that category and if so what did you find benefitted you? 

Do you think there is any correlation between ones ability to make friends and ones ability to date? I was reading about a few couples who went the friend route first, I always thought this was the way to go but apparently it doesn't often really work out that way for many people?

Romantic relationships aren't generally simply "agreed to" for convenience - there's a process of dating, bonding, etc. Ultimately is IS a decision and there ARE "negotiated agreements" but the process is "emotional" and so very different from a business agreement. You might read up on pair bonding if you're doing some research and haven't already.  There are exceptions to this. Arranged marriages and sugar daddy/gold-digger/"we have an arrangement" type relationships IMO fit the business-arrangement-like model. It seems you aren't looking for that sort of thing, though.

There probably ARE marriages of convenience out there as well where two people wanted a relationship and so "just decided" to start one without much of the typical emotional bonding. However, I suspect those are pretty rare - it's simply not the typical "process".

I do believe a friend can eventually become a romantic partner. However I'm not sure how common that is with full adults past 30, where there's generally less emphasis in life on friendships and more on "taking care of one's own business". Still probably happens sometimes. I think it has to be an actual friendship, though - I suspect many women would quickly see through a "friendship" that's really about the guy harboring romantic feelings and being an orbiter type. Some women (and men) will happily keep a person like this around, but I suspect they are generally (and perpetually) "plan B" to whomever the person is really interested in. So much better to let it be an authentic friendship while you keep looking. IF something develops, great. If not, one didn't waste years hoping for something that wasn't overly likely to happen.

Your social skills, attractiveness level, personality etc all do matter in terms of women liking and deciding you are BF material. Women tend to be somewhat fussy and attractive women much more so. (This can lessen a bit as we get older and particularly if a woman has a kid but is unattached, so sometimes you see very open women who are truly searching/trying to find someone.)

Generally, every little bit helps, so a nice haircut, nice clothes, air of confidence, willingness to be friendly etc all add up.

Edited July 15, 2020 by mark clemson

[CaliforniaGirl]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

How many of these things did you do and how much did doing them improve your dating life?

I was already a bit flirty (just lightly; welcoming, really), and women are expected as it is to be physically attractive, we don't get much of a pass on that, so I was very in shape, did my makeup and hair, had cute clothes and so on. When I was having a particular problem over and over I did ask my friends. And vice versa. Or my sister. Somebody who *knew me* and could *see* what I was doing, and was willing to be honest with me.

I also had quite a broad range of physical looks I was attracted to, and while I needed to be attracted, flaws weren't a stop sign for me. Nobody looks perfect and looks fade (or at least change) over time anyway. I went for brains, warmth and a sense of humor. That combo still knocks me dead. But I give back what I get. I am interested in the other person, I have a broad range of interests myself, I reach for common ground, I'm flexible and don't expect other people to be my idea of perfect - I expect them to be them. (Not just in dating; this is SOP for any relationship or association. Work, friends, anybody.)

I am VERY far from perfect, no bones about that, but the other person is as important as I am. That person has dreams and hopes and a history and flaws just like I do. I don't expect a Ken doll to come along and fill some gaping hole in my life. Or "teach me" how to act in a relationship. I was always very shy but I read lots of self-help stuff, asked friends for honest input and always tried to better myself. (I still do. These things are not "just" for dating.)

Ask for pics, I only briefly did OLD but My pics were clear and very accurate, no creative angles or 5-year-old pics or Photoshop or anything. Just me.

My dating life was pretty active.

Edited July 15, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[Ollie180]

On 7/14/2020 at 1:21 PM, ZA Dater said:

Do you think there is any correlation between ones ability to make friends and ones ability to date?

1000%! I can’t think of many folks I know who are amazing at one but poor at the other!

you can’t be friends with the intention of dating later though.. otherwise that’s not a genuine friendship!

 

I don’t think it’s about being shy man, I think it’s about learning to loosen up around people - only way to do that is exposure.. talk talk talk talk to as many folk as you can! At the bus stop, at the pub, wherever!

Making connections with people, making friends, it all boosts social confidence and confidence will help you attract people to you..

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Romantic relationships aren't generally simply "agreed to" for convenience - there's a process of dating, bonding, etc. Ultimately is IS a decision and there ARE "negotiated agreements" but the process is "emotional" and so very different from a business agreement. You might read up on pair bonding if you're doing some research and haven't already.  There are exceptions to this. Arranged marriages and sugar daddy/gold-digger/"we have an arrangement" type relationships IMO fit the business-arrangement-like model. It seems you aren't looking for that sort of thing, though.

There probably ARE marriages of convenience out there as well where two people wanted a relationship and so "just decided" to start one without much of the typical emotional bonding. However, I suspect those are pretty rare - it's simply not the typical "process".

I do believe a friend can eventually become a romantic partner. However I'm not sure how common that is with full adults past 30, where there's generally less emphasis in life on friendships and more on "taking care of one's own business". Still probably happens sometimes. I think it has to be an actual friendship, though - I suspect many women would quickly see through a "friendship" that's really about the guy harboring romantic feelings and being an orbiter type. Some women (and men) will happily keep a person like this around, but I suspect they are generally (and perpetually) "plan B" to whomever the person is really interested in. So much better to let it be an authentic friendship while you keep looking. IF something develops, great. If not, one didn't waste years hoping for something that wasn't overly likely to happen.

Your social skills, attractiveness level, personality etc all do matter in terms of women liking and deciding you are BF material. Women tend to be somewhat fussy and attractive women much more so. (This can lessen a bit as we get older and particularly if a woman has a kid but is unattached, so sometimes you see very open women who are truly searching/trying to find someone.)

Generally, every little bit helps, so a nice haircut, nice clothes, air of confidence, willingness to be friendly etc all add up.

Thanks for this I read it a few times. Do you think the arrangement idea is ever really a viable alternative, I say this because I decided to try a few dates like this a while back but the feeling of the whole thing being false was much like eating a fantastic meal spoilt by someone who added too much salt. I am TRYING not to be the outside looking and seeing what I see but its hard for me not to look around and see so much "convenience" as you put it. I agree with you about the friendship hoping for more, for whatever reason most of my chasing has been like that, years of it in fact across multiple people who never really had any interest in me. I kept hoping if I improved this or did that I might have an opportunity but that was stupid.

How do you keep motivated? That's a general question for everyone really, when I work I always have an end idea and each day I can see some progress but I have to be honest there is nothing motivating me about dating, if I wanted to get laid and I could park my moral I could simply just pay, if I wanted a date for dinner I could again just pay and have another fake date but neither is what I really want but every time I got looking I find alternative which are even less desirable than the two aforementioned ideas. Please tell me how you stay motivated?

I have a serious "hard" probably ugly face so that's the first issue I have looks wise.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

I was already a bit flirty (just lightly; welcoming, really), and women are expected as it is to be physically attractive, we don't get much of a pass on that, so I was very in shape, did my makeup and hair, had cute clothes and so on. When I was having a particular problem over and over I did ask my friends. And vice versa. Or my sister. Somebody who *knew me* and could *see* what I was doing, and was willing to be honest with me.

I also had quite a broad range of physical looks I was attracted to, and while I needed to be attracted, flaws weren't a stop sign for me. Nobody looks perfect and looks fade (or at least change) over time anyway. I went for brains, warmth and a sense of humor. That combo still knocks me dead. But I give back what I get. I am interested in the other person, I have a broad range of interests myself, I reach for common ground, I'm flexible and don't expect other people to be my idea of perfect - I expect them to be them. (Not just in dating; this is SOP for any relationship or association. Work, friends, anybody.)

I am VERY far from perfect, no bones about that, but the other person is as important as I am. That person has dreams and hopes and a history and flaws just like I do. I don't expect a Ken doll to come along and fill some gaping hole in my life. Or "teach me" how to act in a relationship. I was always very shy but I read lots of self-help stuff, asked friends for honest input and always tried to better myself. (I still do. These things are not "just" for dating.)

Ask for pics, I only briefly did OLD but My pics were clear and very accurate, no creative angles or 5-year-old pics or Photoshop or anything. Just me.

My dating life was pretty active.

Thank you. How did you deal with times you couldn't find common ground? I don't have anyone I can ask or who will be honest or anyone who really knows me. Put it this way I show people what I want them to see rather than who I am, which sounds odd but I hold a lot back, I try not to be too clever, which I guess sounds arrogant but if I go on about politics and world affairs I then completely miss the point with most people and they are lost, so I need to try tailor myself to the other person and inevitably this sometimes means I get bored. Case in point the political lady she really gave me that intellectual challenge, the school teacher didn't. Am I right for expecting this, probably not but for whatever reason I like it. Look I am happy to discuss au pairs and looking after kids, animal rescue etc.

When you say common ground would you say meeting of minds in respect of values, beliefs and general lifestyle? How important is compatibility, did you look at that from the outset or give the person the benefit of the doubt at first?

Thing is you seemed to put in effort, I can honestly say maybe 30% of the people I have met up with put in any effort at all.

[mark clemson]

5 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Thanks for this I read it a few times. Do you think the arrangement idea is ever really a viable alternative, I say this because I decided to try a few dates like this a while back but the feeling of the whole thing being false was much like eating a fantastic meal spoilt by someone who added too much salt...

...if I wanted a date for dinner I could again just pay and have another fake date but neither is what I really want but every time I got looking I find alternative which are even less desirable than the two aforementioned ideas.

NP. I think it is viable for some people, but given what you write perhaps not for you. Perhaps you will find someone sooner or later who you can connect with in a way that doesn't feel phony to you. I can see how that would be difficult if it's on your mind with e.g. sugar daddy type dates. I suspect some of those women are not too shy about "reminding" the guy just why they're really there and that could certainly be quite off-putting.

 

 

[ZA Dater]

56 minutes ago, Ollie180 said:

1000%! I can’t think of many folks I know who are amazing at one but poor at the other!

you can’t be friends with the intention of dating later though.. otherwise that’s not a genuine friendship!

 

I don’t think it’s about being shy man, I think it’s about learning to loosen up around people - only way to do that is exposure.. talk talk talk talk to as many folk as you can! At the bus stop, at the pub, wherever!

Making connections with people, making friends, it all boosts social confidence and confidence will help you attract people to you..

Well I guess that does sort of answer my question. I don't really loosen up, have tried but its immensely difficult being the person who never really fits in, sure I can talk to people when I need to.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, mark clemson said:

NP. I think it is viable for some people, but given what you write perhaps not for you. Perhaps you will find someone sooner or later who you can connect with in a way that doesn't feel phony to you. I can see how that would be difficult if it's on your mind with e.g. sugar daddy type dates. I suspect some of those women are not too shy about "reminding" the guy just why they're really there and that could certainly be quite off-putting.

 

 

I know from the start its an arrangement and she wouldn't normally go on a date with me and that thought never really leaves my thought process. The other inherent issue I am look back and I see so many situations I "messed" up and I sometimes wonder as bad as it is to do "what if". Mostly I do this because looking forward, there is nothing really as I have tried to put in effort and improve the last few years the results have actually gotten worse, probably because I am putting in the effort and getting nothing out of it.

The other thing is I feel people pick up things about me very quickly, the shyness even whey I don't try show it, they pick it up, the lack of dating experience they pick it up, some have even commented on both.

Its very difficult to motivate myself. Someone said, set goals a great idea but what can I really accomplish, I don't know, I have been trying to get laid for 15 years I am not closer now than I was 15 years ago.  I have been trying to go on 4 dates with the same person for 15 years, I am not closer to that now than I was then, I have been trying to find mutual attraction for 20 years and am not closer now than I was then. What goal do I set when everything I try to achieve never works over such a long period of time.

Do you know the only thing I did get sort of right, one friendship of probably more convenience to her than for me.

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

42 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Thank you. How did you deal with times you couldn't find common ground?

Deal with it? I didn't. That person has a right not to like me and I have a right not to like him or her. Separate ways, no harm, no foul.

I don't have anyone I can ask or who will be honest or anyone who really knows me.

That is why you need a therapist, a neutral party who can SEE YOU and LISTEN TO YOU (in person) figure out what's going on here.

Put it this way I show people what I want them to see rather than who I am, which sounds odd but I hold a lot back, I try not to be too clever, which I guess sounds arrogant but if I go on about politics and world affairs I then completely miss the point with most people and they are lost, so I need to try tailor myself to the other person and inevitably this sometimes means I get bored. Case in point the political lady she really gave me that intellectual challenge, the school teacher didn't. Am I right for expecting this, probably not but for whatever reason I like it. Look I am happy to discuss au pairs and looking after kids, animal rescue etc.

Therapy. Therapy. Therapy. There is no shame in it. NOBODY here can change this ^ for you, full stop.

When you say common ground would you say meeting of minds in respect of values, beliefs and general lifestyle? How important is compatibility, did you look at that from the outset or give the person the benefit of the doubt at first?

Anything. Literally. I learned to like football (American football) because my husband seemed to think it was super-cool and once I learned the rules and figured out what the hell was going on, LOL, I realized: OMG! This is fun to watch. Now we watch together all the time in the fall. Or did, before COVID. My husband found out how much Halloween (my obsession) is and we do tons of autumn stuff together now as a family and we all love it. We already did have the same basic values. Friends: we also find stuff to talk about. Our kids. Workng out. Anything.

Thing is you seemed to put in effort, I can honestly say maybe 30% of the people I have met up with put in any effort at all.

Well, do you? You keep refusing to make changes we suggest, or you ignore them altogether, or you say you "tried" such and such and then you add all sorts of caveats that show you really didn't. And you name the same problems over and over and over again. You think you're getting a tummy but "what if getting in shape doesn't work anyway?" We suggest therapy and you say "no, I'll just try introspection" and when we say introspection is obviously NOT working for you, you claim it's still the best way to...I don't know? Stay the same? I have no idea why you keep balking at that. You say you're sort of wooden and want to flirt but then you say you don't know how and when we tell you how you can start to learn you just ignore it and post another new question, or another whole new thread leading people on a wild goose chase. You claim other people aren't willing to put in effort. Are you? You don't seem to be. Do you want honesty or do you just keep wanting to dig in your heels, and keep coming up short in the world of dating? And apparently, even friends? Do you just want 35+ page thread after 35+ page thread of exactly the same thing a million times? It is my belief - and this is just my opinion - that there is something so deep in there that subconsciously you do not WANT  a relationship, you put EVERY stumbling block in there that you can.

Therapy.

Therapy.

Therapy.

Good luck.

 

[poppyfields]

5 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Romantic relationships aren't generally simply "agreed to" for convenience - there's a process of dating, bonding, etc. Ultimately is IS a decision and there ARE "negotiated agreements" but the process is "emotional" and so very different from a business agreement. You might read up on pair bonding if you're doing some research and haven't already.  

Physically, of course you need to present the very best version of yourself, but what is quoted above is the crux of it really, imo and experience..

It's important to understand that women (most not all) connect through their emotions and if you are unable to pull a woman in emotionally, nothing is going to happen.

The same thing was said to another struggling poster, max, who had lists of qualities he'd look for, quickly checking women off his list, if she failed to meet his list of qualifiers. 

That is not how attraction, romantic  connection and love work.  Attraction, truly connecting romantically with another human being which goes beyond the physical, is largely emotional. 

ZA, how available are you emotionally? 

That is what I'd be exploring if I were you.  

I know many couples who had their "lists" and ended up falling hard to people who did not match any of the qualities on their list!

Yet they admitted the attraction and connection were immediate. 

Learn ways to tap into a woman's emotions, and you're on your way mate. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by poppyfields

[basil67]

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I don't have much of an issue talking to people in an environment where I am comfortable. The difference between the two is one interests me the other does not, its like the 5 au pairs I went on dates with, all they could talk about were the kids they looked after, that's fine but not for 2 hours.

Au pairs are usually very young and probably won't have much to offer a man your age.    But a primary school teacher who is a similar age to you has finished university, is possibly doing a post grad.   They have life experience.

That said, I reckon most could get more out of an au pair than you describe.  Where did they grow up?  What led them to travel?  What have they seen and done?  Hobbies, interests?  What makes them happy.   You've said before that you find these types of questions meaningless, but they are the crux of 'getting to know you'.    And half the point is what you find interesting things, you can connect or even share similar experiences.

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The social thing is a good idea which I try do within what I am interested in but there is no potential there at all, just none. Hence I tried going out with a group of students and that was more to try and make friends with a mutual interest but lets just say that didn't really work out that well.

Dude, you don't drink but went on a wine tasting and spoke with new people!  That is seriously stepping into "things I'm not interested in" territory.

7 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

What interests me is people who went from one situation and managed to work and derive what they really wanted

Sure.  But that conversation lasts for 15 mins.  Then you're back in the territory of regular conversation.   And what if that person who has a great story is a primary school teacher but you've already written them off because you assume they aren't interesting?