How to be more desireable to search better

[Azincourt]

On 7/14/2020 at 1:21 PM, ZA Dater said:

I think so much about dating is to do with perceived value. The super fit guys, they have a higher perceived value than the average guys etc. A lot of the time I wonder if it really is possible to actually raise ones own value BUT how much of ones value is rooted in personality?

What does being ''super fit'' mean?

I haven't been to the gym since december. I don't have a home-gym. I'm about 165lbs at 6 feet tall.  My body pretty much looks the same as that professional soccer player, David Beckham. Which is the same build of pretty much every other guy around here. My body is nothing special, and I don't really have much of a hard time with women who are 5'7'' 120lbs and conventionally pretty, and I've dated women who were as physically attractive as I've described, but at 6'2''+ so height on a man is nice to a woman, but to many women, it's not really all that important.

I work as a bartender, not exactly a high status position.

I look young for my old age(I'm in my 30s) and I still get approached by attractive women in their late teens up to their mid 20s.  Women in their 30s, and 40s and 50s etc check me out, but most are married or in a long-term relationship so  they aren't going to do anything about it. No, I don't have a face like Brad Pitt did when he was my age. I'd say that when it comes to a celebrity whose face is very similar to my own, would be the internationally soccer player, Bernardo Silva.

So, a small chin, and ''girly'' features, and that doesn't put off women, at least not the ones that I've met in my life, when the ''ideal'' male look is that of the same men who took a part in the Magic Mike franchise of movies.

Physical attraction, how a woman perceives you, has much to do with how you see yourself.

I meet a few fashion models back in college, and they introduced me to many other models. Amongst those there have been Giorgio Armani models and Calvin Klein models that I've befriended, and one thing I've noticed is that only the hottest of women have the confidence to approach these men, or to date them.

That means that pretty young women are going to date men who don't intimidate them because these men aren't greek gods whose six-packs have abs of their own. That means me. And it means every other guy who isn't afraid of rejection and who isn't intimidated by attractive women.

There have been women that I've ended scratching my head about because why would they be attracted to me?

Because lots of 10/10 men are a bit on the douchie side, and women don't want to get hurt.

I'm not hot. At least I'm not hot compared with Giorgio Armani models. But I have  high self-esteem and I love myself,  and that shows. Women see that and they feel drawn to it. On the other hand, when a man has low self-esteem, and sees himself poorly, women can sense that about the guy, and they will feel the same way about him, and won't be interested in the guy.

 

On 7/14/2020 at 1:21 PM, ZA Dater said:

As part of what I am hoping will be a journey to making myself a better value proposition I am looking at a lot of things.

I'm confused. Are you looking to date, or are you trying to sell yourself to Amazon or Microsoft?  A better value proposition? What does that even mean?

 

On 7/14/2020 at 1:21 PM, ZA Dater said:

For example I can get super fit but how does that serve me if I am shy? I can try get outgoing but how does that serve me if I have an ugly face? I think you can see where I am going with this. For me this is partly to try and search better but also in some way to just improve.

There's plenty of women(yes, including attractive women) who have no qualms physically approaching you, striking a conversation, and doing the majority of the work, yes. Those are the women whose personality are very extroverted. I work as a bartender. Well, I used to, when the nightclubs and bars were still open. I would come across hundreds, thousands of attractive women per night. Tens of thousands of women per month. The secret is to spend as much time with as many women as possible, eventually there will be plenty of women who'll think you're cute and will want to know you better.

If you are shy, I dunno, ask for friends to introduce you to women they know who are single and looking to date. Or hire a dating coach who can help you with your shyness.

 

On 7/14/2020 at 1:21 PM, ZA Dater said:

On the other hand I am fairly happy with life, apart from being alone all the time and never having had any of the relationship experience. I suppose an argument could be made for a change of mind set, somehow convince myself to look people I don't but that's going to be almost impossible.

I don't understand what you mean? Do you mean you are afraid of putting yourself to meet more people?

 

 

On 7/14/2020 at 1:21 PM, ZA Dater said:

Things I am doing

1: Working out more at home

That's good.  Physical exercise is always good for one's health if nothing else.

On 7/14/2020 at 1:21 PM, ZA Dater said:

2 Taking whatever positive I can find from the day

3 I have to use OLD because there is no other alternative but reducing the number of apps drastically.

You could consider using Tinder. OKcupid. PlentyofFish. Bumblr. Etc.

 

On 7/14/2020 at 1:21 PM, ZA Dater said:

What I always find hard to understand people I know keep telling me what I nice guy I am, I have actually told them to not tell me this because frankly its window dressing, were it true I wouldn't be a "never had a gf at 36" guy.

Being called a nice guy is not an insult. It means that you have a stable personality and that you're a decent human being. 

Well, nearly every guy can get a girlfriend. There are men who were born without arms and legs, like the author and motivational speaker Nicholas James Vujicic,  who not only manage to get a girlfriend, but they manage to get married, have children, and enjoy a happy romantic life. 

Of course the higher a man's requirements in a woman's age or physical looks are, the less likely he is to get a girlfriend, if he doesn't bring something to the table that the woman in question values as much as that guy values her youth or beauty.

Say, an average-looking man should have no trouble finding satisfiying romantic relationships with a woman who is also average, even a woman who is slightly above average can find happiness with a man who is less attractive than her, sure, but the average man will never date Camila Morrone,  Leonardo Dicaprio's current main squeeze, but honestly nor will most hot men get to date her.  It's all very subjective.

As long as a man doesn't try to shoot for the moon, he'll do just  fine with women.

 

On 7/14/2020 at 1:21 PM, ZA Dater said:

Guys who have done this, what did you find added the most value to you and improved the quality of ladies you were able to attract. Been reading a bit, watching some videos and I have to sat people are just very good at the flirting charm routine. If there is one thing some people say about me I can be abrupt, not really my intention but you can see how that would make flirting and charming difficult for me.

Last year I was 190lbs at 8% body fat.  I didn't notice a significant amount of more women attracted to me because of my ''Captain America build'', what I did get was a lot of gay men attracted to me.  Women seem to prefer a man with a soccer build. Say,  like the one young Bryan Adams got, or the build of Keanu Reeves, or Brad Pitt's build in legends of the fall, in fact, lots of women actually think Brad Pitt was way too muscly when he got buff for the movie Troy.

 

On 7/14/2020 at 1:21 PM, ZA Dater said:

When I look at people who do search with success the one common thing is unreal levels of confidence, they just don't seem to have rejection as an option whereas the only real confidence I derive is when I am successful at something, they are confident irrespective of the result.

Do you think there is a place for guys who simply just take a very cold and dare I say rather go through the motions approach to looking, anyone here ever fall into that category and if so what did you find benefitted you? 

Do you think there is any correlation between ones ability to make friends and ones ability to date? I was reading about a few couples who went the friend route first, I always thought this was the way to go but apparently it doesn't often really work out that way for many people?

A lot of what I am trying to do now is reconcile the past to try and move forward in some way.

Self-esteem and confidence is what most attractive women are looking for in a potential romantic partner, other than the guy taking care of his health(no, I'm not taking about getting built and buff) and having a job, and having a stable, pleasant personality.

[ZA Dater]

20 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

You’re not well rounded, as you don’t have any social circle, nor have you ever had a relationship. You check the boxes of attractive enough, intelligent enough and ambitious enough. If you’re asking for someone who brings something “different”, you have to acknowledge that different is rare and therefore will be harder to find. So you’re reducing your chances of finding someone. 

In my opinion my chances were not very good to begin with so reducing them doesn't really matter that much. Why do I need a social circle, sure it would help to date people but I don't see much other logical benefit.

[Weezy1973]

10 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

In my opinion my chances were not very good to begin with so reducing them doesn't really matter that much.

That’s faulty logic. It’s math: if you had a 1% chance of a woman being interested in you and you were interested in all women that means 1 out of every 100 women you meet will be a match. But if you’re also only interested in 1% of women, then only 1 out of every 10,000 women are now a match. Reducing chances matter a lot.

 

10 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Why do I need a social circle, sure it would help to date people but I don't see much other logical benefit.

You were saying you wanted someone well rounded and I was commenting that you’re not well rounded as you don’t have a social circle. Well rounded people will invest in friendships and will want to be with likeminded people.

 

There are many benefits to having a social circle, but you certainly don’t need one.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Weezy1973

[elaine567]

15 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Why do I need a social circle

Would you describe yourself as a happy loner, or has the lack of a social circle evolved through fate maybe and was not chosen by you to be that way..

Edited August 5, 2020 by elaine567

[ZA Dater]

18 hours ago, Azincourt said:

What does being ''super fit'' mean?

I haven't been to the gym since december. I don't have a home-gym. I'm about 165lbs at 6 feet tall.  My body pretty much looks the same as that professional soccer player, David Beckham. Which is the same build of pretty much every other guy around here. My body is nothing special, and I don't really have much of a hard time with women who are 5'7'' 120lbs and conventionally pretty, and I've dated women who were as physically attractive as I've described, but at 6'2''+ so height on a man is nice to a woman, but to many women, it's not really all that important.

I work as a bartender, not exactly a high status position.

I look young for my old age(I'm in my 30s) and I still get approached by attractive women in their late teens up to their mid 20s.  Women in their 30s, and 40s and 50s etc check me out, but most are married or in a long-term relationship so  they aren't going to do anything about it. No, I don't have a face like Brad Pitt did when he was my age. I'd say that when it comes to a celebrity whose face is very similar to my own, would be the internationally soccer player, Bernardo Silva.

So, a small chin, and ''girly'' features, and that doesn't put off women, at least not the ones that I've met in my life, when the ''ideal'' male look is that of the same men who took a part in the Magic Mike franchise of movies.

Physical attraction, how a woman perceives you, has much to do with how you see yourself.

I meet a few fashion models back in college, and they introduced me to many other models. Amongst those there have been Giorgio Armani models and Calvin Klein models that I've befriended, and one thing I've noticed is that only the hottest of women have the confidence to approach these men, or to date them.

That means that pretty young women are going to date men who don't intimidate them because these men aren't greek gods whose six-packs have abs of their own. That means me. And it means every other guy who isn't afraid of rejection and who isn't intimidated by attractive women.

There have been women that I've ended scratching my head about because why would they be attracted to me?

Because lots of 10/10 men are a bit on the douchie side, and women don't want to get hurt.

I'm not hot. At least I'm not hot compared with Giorgio Armani models. But I have  high self-esteem and I love myself,  and that shows. Women see that and they feel drawn to it. On the other hand, when a man has low self-esteem, and sees himself poorly, women can sense that about the guy, and they will feel the same way about him, and won't be interested in the guy.

I'm confused. Are you looking to date, or are you trying to sell yourself to Amazon or Microsoft?  A better value proposition? What does that even mean?

There's plenty of women(yes, including attractive women) who have no qualms physically approaching you, striking a conversation, and doing the majority of the work, yes. Those are the women whose personality are very extroverted. I work as a bartender. Well, I used to, when the nightclubs and bars were still open. I would come across hundreds, thousands of attractive women per night. Tens of thousands of women per month. The secret is to spend as much time with as many women as possible, eventually there will be plenty of women who'll think you're cute and will want to know you better.

If you are shy, I dunno, ask for friends to introduce you to women they know who are single and looking to date. Or hire a dating coach who can help you with your shyness.

I don't understand what you mean? Do you mean you are afraid of putting yourself to meet more people?

That's good.  Physical exercise is always good for one's health if nothing else.

You could consider using Tinder. OKcupid. PlentyofFish. Bumblr. Etc.

Being called a nice guy is not an insult. It means that you have a stable personality and that you're a decent human being. 

Well, nearly every guy can get a girlfriend. There are men who were born without arms and legs, like the author and motivational speaker Nicholas James Vujicic,  who not only manage to get a girlfriend, but they manage to get married, have children, and enjoy a happy romantic life. 

Of course the higher a man's requirements in a woman's age or physical looks are, the less likely he is to get a girlfriend, if he doesn't bring something to the table that the woman in question values as much as that guy values her youth or beauty.

Say, an average-looking man should have no trouble finding satisfiying romantic relationships with a woman who is also average, even a woman who is slightly above average can find happiness with a man who is less attractive than her, sure, but the average man will never date Camila Morrone,  Leonardo Dicaprio's current main squeeze, but honestly nor will most hot men get to date her.  It's all very subjective.

As long as a man doesn't try to shoot for the moon, he'll do just  fine with women.

 

Last year I was 190lbs at 8% body fat.  I didn't notice a significant amount of more women attracted to me because of my ''Captain America build'', what I did get was a lot of gay men attracted to me.  Women seem to prefer a man with a soccer build. Say,  like the one young Bryan Adams got, or the build of Keanu Reeves, or Brad Pitt's build in legends of the fall, in fact, lots of women actually think Brad Pitt was way too muscly when he got buff for the movie Troy.

 

Self-esteem and confidence is what most attractive women are looking for in a potential romantic partner, other than the guy taking care of his health(no, I'm not taking about getting built and buff) and having a job, and having a stable, pleasant personality.

A few things struck me here.

1: Bar tender= superb interpersonal skills, friendly personality, outgoing, talk to anyone. Guys like that do well at dating by virtue of having that personality type, even I have been in enough bars to notice and realise this.

Sure I would agree perception is important but I actually stopped caring about this a long time ago for the simply reason if I had to worry about how each and every person perceived me I wouldn't have time to do anything else.

I get it re the models, I have been introduced to many via a friend and ALL have been very nice to me because well I have the "project" vibe about me. The irony is though and this is in general everyone seems to know what is best for me without actually asking what sort of help I would like. Hence the reason I asked how to be more attractive, mutual attraction is a foreign concept for me, its ALWAYS me have to sell and oversell and do whatever to try and be attractive to the person.  It must be a lovely feeling to have people attracted to you who you find attractive, I have never had this and logically I doubt I ever will experience it.

Friends have tried the introduction thing and eventually I told them to stop because the match ups for so unsuitable and so forced I just felt like....well a project and these women saw me a pity project, there was no common ground, no common interests, absolutely nothing at all. I then see who the land up dating and its laughable really because I am usually the complete opposite of that, what I am saying here is friends basically convince them that I am viable when anyone a modicum of common sense can see that isn't the case. Case in point was this cringe worth moment. Me, a friend and a friend of his, tall model.

Friend: why don't you go out with M

Model: laughs awkwardly

See its these sort of useless set ups or trying to set me up with a shop assistant a boutique store. I don't have the charm or the confidence to make anything of this and I can see how awkward the other person is so I usually defuse it in a nice and make some joke or something to get around the awkward moment.

I suppose lots of this is also me, wanting the very difficult.

Bottom line is really I need to figure out some sort of strategy/coping mechanism. And yes I wont lie those super confident out going guys do irritate me to some extent because in a social setting I have no chance with any lady so long as those guys are around.

[ZA Dater]

6 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Would you describe yourself as a happy loner, or has the lack of a social circle evolved through fate maybe and was not chosen by you to be that way..

I never chose that should I have done more? I think I'd like to be around people and I do if there is a common interest, I enjoy the car club I run, I enjoy meeting people in business but socially that doesn't really exist for me, everything I do revolves around work and that. Hobbies are intertwined with work so that's what everything moves around.  It is why for me if I am doing to date she needs to bring something I like to the table, she need to have the outgoing personality because if she is like me there is no interest at all. I purposefully like different but the problem is I face the biggest competition. All I get is merciless beatings and this applies to OLD too. I think the problem really is I have spent too  much time around the really dynamic, the really attractive, the really top tier and to be fair when you experience that, everything else is well.....not so alluring at all. I have found some people, VERY few on OLD who do have some of this intangible quality I like but even then its the same beating because well they have endless choice.

Hindsight is always a lovely thing to have.

Ultimately I am not stupid I can see can see the issues as raw as they are, imperfect personality, ugly face, a voice which probably puts people off so what I can actually get to what I actually want it just completely different. Irrespective of the exposure I had had I don't believe any of the OLD options I have had barring perhaps 5 actually appeal to me. Its a wonderful thing to meet many different people, its given me a unique perspective but its also made me jaded. All I really want it to just once be able to compete at that level but when I see what is needed it seems frankly impossible from a personality point of view.

 

[Beachead]

Hey ZA Dater,

I used to worry about stuff like this up until a few years ago when I went through another breakup,  but some excellent advice I received years prior, finally connected with me, and it changed my perspective.  I'll share it with you and  I hope you consider it but I wouldn't blame you if you didn't.  Took me 10 years to really understand what was being explained to me.

You said the following:

Quote

I am fairly happy with life, apart from being alone all the time

I'll challenge you on that.  You are actually not happy with your life BECAUSE you feel alone by it.  It means your life is not fulfilling to you. Dismiss that or take a long hard look at it, and consider it from a fresh perspective...up to you.   But do you find purpose and fulfillment in your own life?  Does it make you excited to get up in the morning and get at it?  Do you forget about everything else because you're so focused it?  If you can't honestly answer those questions, you're not living the life you want.

Those who struggle to be okay, being alone, consequently struggle with socializing and dating, because it ends up making them seek others out to validate their own worth.   They approach people from a place of need.   They need to feel lovable.  They need to get away from loneliness.  They need to feel worthy and validated.   They need to be with someone, because that's what they think they're supposed to do..maybe because of societal conditioning, family pressures/expectations, seeing their peers do it.  One can become quite lost in the mess and lose touch with themselves.

These are wounds inside, and it'll will affect our attitude and the vibe we put out as result.  Motivations for dating will become insincere and come from a place of weakness as well.  Dates, partners, friends and whoever will pick up on things like a lack of confidence, desperation, insincere, needy, insecure, unresolved nature, that we emit.  If that person doesn't deal with it, and they attempt to conceal it, by pretending to be confident and self-fulfilled and generally someone they're not, it will be picked-up on by the other person eventually and it will cause problems.  

So rather than that, it is best to approach any kind of relationship from a place of strength and self-fulfillment and abundance.   Because from this angle, you don't need a person to fulfill your life or to complete you.  Rather, you simply attract people you share commonalities with, through your love and passion for your own journey.   You can't pretend to be this way.  It won't work.  It has to be natural and in order for that to occur, one has to learn to live for themselves.  Life cannot be about finding love.   In letting go of this need to be with another person and finding purpose and self-fulfillment in oneself, through personal investment (Spiritually, academically, culturally, materially, physically etc.), you achieve this.  

- Beach

 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Beachead

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, Beachead said:

Hey ZA Dater,

I used to worry about stuff like this up until a few years ago when I went through another breakup,  but some excellent advice I received years prior, finally connected with me, and it changed my perspective.  I'll share it with you and  I hope you consider it but I wouldn't blame you if you didn't.  Took me 10 years to really understand what was being explained to me.

You said the following:

I'll challenge you on that.  You are actually not happy with your life BECAUSE you feel alone by it.  It means your life is not fulfilling to you. Dismiss that or take a long hard look at it, and consider it from a fresh perspective...up to you.   But do you find purpose and fulfillment in your own life?  Does it make you excited to get up in the morning and get at it?  Do you forget about everything else because you're so focused it?  If you can't honestly answer those questions, you're not living the life you want.

Those who struggle to be okay, being alone, consequently struggle with socializing and dating, because it ends up making them seek others out to validate their own worth.   They approach people from a place of need.   They need to feel lovable.  They need to get away from loneliness.  They need to feel worthy and validated.   They need to be with someone, because that's what they think they're supposed to do..maybe because of societal conditioning, family pressures/expectations, seeing their peers do it.  One can become quite lost in the mess and lose touch with themselves.

These are wounds inside, and it'll will affect our attitude and the vibe we put out as result.  Motivations for dating will become insincere and come from a place of weakness as well.  Dates, partners, friends and whoever will pick up on things like a lack of confidence, desperation, insincere, needy, insecure, unresolved nature, that we emit.  If that person doesn't deal with it, and they attempt to conceal it, by pretending to be confident and self-fulfilled and generally someone they're not, it will be picked-up on by the other person eventually and it will cause problems.  

So rather than that, it is best to approach any kind of relationship from a place of strength and self-fulfillment and abundance.   Because from this angle, you don't need a person to fulfill your life or to complete you.  Rather, you simply attract people you share commonalities with, through your love and passion for your own journey.   You can't pretend to be this way.  It won't work.  It has to be natural and in order for that to occur, one has to learn to live for themselves.  Life cannot be about finding love.   In letting go of this need to be with another person and finding purpose and self-fulfillment in oneself, through personal investment (Spiritually, academically, culturally, materially, physically etc.), you achieve this.  

- Beach

 

 

 

 

This is very profound, thank you for sharing this. I have printed this and will be reading it at least once a day. I cannot begin to tell you how much I relate to so much of this.

I get up each day motivated because I see each day as a step toward the life I want, the sacrifices today for hopefully the rewards in the future, when I get to those rewards I will be able to say it was all worth it, assuming I can get to those rewards. Work becomes a sort of solitude from issues, much of my life revolves around it because to be frank I have little else, I banked everything on getting one part of life right in order to use that as a springboard to work on other aspects, get that right to give me the confidence which comes from success.

You are right I do seek out others to validate my own worth, all of those things I feel to varying degrees. I probably don't need anyone, you are right but its so hard to walk alone all of the time, seeing people with partners, hearing other people tell me how fantastic so and so is, how much fun they had with so and so. You are right and maybe I shouldn't admit it but I do find some degree of fulfilment from just buying things I like, I debated buying this pure wool jersey, I didn't need it but I liked it and ended up buying it a few days later, wore it and I felt good, I like the colour and I think it looks good on me. Its a stupid example.

Again you are probably right people do pick up all of the things you mention and probably more besides. Most of the time I just wonder around and never really find anyone with any commonality and I again just retreat back to work, occupy my mind with those better thoughts or I work on planning an event or I sit and write an article.

My question is how do you avoid feeling so completely out of step with everyone else?

[basil67]

ZA, there's absolutely nothing wrong with finding joy in a lovely new thing.   And I bet that each time you put the jersey on, it gives you a new burst of joy.

[ZA Dater]

 I have decided what I am going to search for....the seemingly impossible. Which sounds like a waste of time but when I had a look at Tinder, once again I saw the same people I always see and I realised as a platform that wont work for me, the same applied to OK cupid and Bumble. I can make myself feel terrible persisting with these apps so I am not going to bother with them.

What I am going to do is to challenge myself severely in the hope that even if I don't what I ultimately want I get to at lease enjoy the challenge. Over the year there have been a few people who viewed me as a sort of "project" I hated that idea so dismissed it but perhaps I was too hasty. I am going to re look at simply going along with what they suggest. I view myself as undesirable but then I again I looked at it another way, I don't have relationship baggage, I don't have kids, I have a reasonable job, I am fairly smart, I am in decent shape so the things I think are bad might not be so bad after all. No experience might not be the deal killer I think it is.

 

 

[Weezy1973]

On 8/10/2020 at 11:19 AM, ZA Dater said:

 I have decided what I am going to search for....the seemingly impossible.

What I am going to do is to challenge myself severely in the hope that even if I don't what I ultimately want I get to at lease enjoy the challenge.

 

 

This is no different from what you’ve been doing. You’re on the same treadmill, and going through the same cycle. It will end with you proclaiming that you’re just going to focus on yourself and the things you enjoy and you’ll forget about dating,
 

And then a few weeks later you’ll be back on here looking to date again. 

[ZA Dater]

23 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

This is no different from what you’ve been doing. You’re on the same treadmill, and going through the same cycle. It will end with you proclaiming that you’re just going to focus on yourself and the things you enjoy and you’ll forget about dating,
 

And then a few weeks later you’ll be back on here looking to date again. 

No I had been going for dates with anyone who liked me on Tinder, people I found unattractive and who offered me nothing but I would go anyway hoping that perhaps I would find them more attractive in person. If I don't go on any date with this new approach so be it. Don't see why I should bother going out with people I don't find superficially attractive.

I have tried the 'whole looks don't matter maybe she is a nice person" this is a one way street which only seems to apply to men looking because women never give this benefit of the doubt. No, I am going to project a bit of indifference in my interactions from now on and be a bit more evasive and less grovelling.

Bottom line, I'd rather believe in something I want than believe in what I can get. I am always going to be too compromised for most, too much of an outlier, too different, too unusual for most people. I'll never be that outgoing guy, though sometimes I wish I was, I can be that around the right sort of people. I am tired of beating myself up about being single and dateless no relationship experience, never woken up next to anyone and all of that. At some point I need to concede it just doesn't work for me but I shouldn't give up believing because I am sure it must be quite amazing to find mutual attraction.  Will I regret any of this: probably. However I have always believed in trying to get the best experience at anything I do and if in terms of dating that has to remain in my imagination rather than in reality then so be it. I know I have come close to creating a reality as good as I could imagine.

[Trail Blazer]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

No I had been going for dates with anyone who liked me on Tinder, people I found unattractive and who offered me nothing but I would go anyway hoping that perhaps I would find them more attractive in person. If I don't go on any date with this new approach so be it. Don't see why I should bother going out with people I don't find superficially attractive.

I have tried the 'whole looks don't matter maybe she is a nice person" this is a one way street which only seems to apply to men looking because women never give this benefit of the doubt. No, I am going to project a bit of indifference in my interactions from now on and be a bit more evasive and less grovelling.

Bottom line, I'd rather believe in something I want than believe in what I can get. I am always going to be too compromised for most, too much of an outlier, too different, too unusual for most people. I'll never be that outgoing guy, though sometimes I wish I was, I can be that around the right sort of people. I am tired of beating myself up about being single and dateless no relationship experience, never woken up next to anyone and all of that. At some point I need to concede it just doesn't work for me but I shouldn't give up believing because I am sure it must be quite amazing to find mutual attraction.  Will I regret any of this: probably. However I have always believed in trying to get the best experience at anything I do and if in terms of dating that has to remain in my imagination rather than in reality then so be it. I know I have come close to creating a reality as good as I could imagine.

I struggle to fathom how you've been single your whole life other than it being your own doing.  I can't imagine you're bad enough looking that no reasonable looking woman in her own right has ever found you attractive in any way, shape or form.

OLD aside, because it doesn't really reflect the real life success rate of dating for males - unless you yourself are only attracted to women that are out of your league, then I refuse to believe that there isn't someone out there for you.

You need to ask yourself objectively; "If I were to date 'xyz woman' that I find attractive, would I be punching well above my weight?" 

If you ask yourself that question, what answer do you get?  If the answer is that, objectively, you don't feel like you're "reaching" as such, then you've got to look inwards as to why women who are objectively your equal in terms of physical attractiveness continue to overlook you.

As I said above, OLD aside, because it not a reflection of reality outside its own sphere - there are plenty of very average looking guys who are not only in committed relationships, but who are actually dating or even married to women who are objectively better looking than they are.

Sure, I understand that these guys may have personalities that women find warm and engaging.  They may be smooth talkers, have good jobs, ooze intelligence and charisma.  It's usually how it works. 

However, the point I'm making here is that despite looks, they've managed to leverage off their strengths and sell those (not in an overt/obvious manner) to a respective partner. 

You've listed all of your strengths in a few posts above, where you outlined all of the things you have going for you that make you attractive on paper.  So, what you need to do is believe in yourself that those traits are things you can sell, that they are things that women find desirable - sell it to yourself first and you can easily sell it to anyone else.

I have no further suggestions to you about OLD.  It can be a horrible experience for many guys, I get that.  And, with this pandemic going on, dating in general has been turned on its head.  However, once this virus passes, you need to get out there and sell yourself.

How you do that is something that I cannot answer, either.  You've got to dig deep and believe in yourself, that you are worthy of love and being loved back.

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Trail Blazer

[Veronica73]

Also, in addition to what TrailBlazer said, you said you were tired of “beating yourself up about being single and dateless” etc. I get that you want that experience. But it’s no reason to beat yourself up that you haven’t had it. I know this is going to sound corny AF, but be the best version of you you can be. That’s how I feel.

And if your profile picture is how you look in real life, I highly doubt that is the reason you aren’t getting dates.

Also, and I’m sure most guys would disagree with me... But I have been very, very attracted to men who weren’t the least physically attractive at all. Because of their personality, sense of humor, kindness, strength, honor, etc. Faking physical attraction to someone you aren’t that into might be difficult to fake. I don’t think I could do that. So a girl you don’t think is very attractive at all but you are trying to give her a chance,  and then when she isn’t attracted to you, taking that as a message that you are doomed to never be in a decent relationship is f***ed up. She can probably sense that you aren’t into her. That’s could be why she isn’t responding To you.

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Veronica73

[Trail Blazer]

15 minutes ago, Veronica73 said:

Also, and I’m sure most guys would disagree with me... But I have been very, very attracted to men who weren’t the least physically attractive at all. Because of their personality, sense of humor, kindness, strength, honor, etc. Faking physical attraction to someone you aren’t that into might be difficult to fake. I don’t think I could do that. So a girl you don’t think is very attractive at all but you are trying to give her a chance,  and then when she isn’t attracted to you, taking that as a message that you are doomed to never be in a decent relationship is f***ed up. She can probably sense that you aren’t into her. That’s could be why she isn’t responding To you.

 

Nobody would disagree with your personal experiences of what you've been attracted to.  However, many guys would disagree if you were to say that you are anything other an outlier.

So, in the instances where you've been attracted to these men, surely none of these experiences were through OLD?

I totally agree with your last point about trying to fake attraction to someone you aren't attracted to.  It isn't going to work at the best of times for most people, and it's hardly something I could see ZA Dater pulling off easily.

I do think that for ZA Dater, just going on more dates and getting more experience talking to women in general wouldn't be such a bad idea for him, though.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Trail Blazer

[Veronica73]

No, the experiences I am talking about definitely did not come about by online dating. I don’t like OLD. But it’s not like online dating is the only way to meet people. (Barring a pandemic) (And I didn’t read the whole thread. He has had *many* of them basically rehashing the same things. I’m not going to slog through another one unless I see a clue that something significant has changed from all the others.)

And I don’t see what me being an outlier has much to do with anything. At least if you are aiming for a true friend and life partner. Being shallow doesn’t work for very long. And leads to “settling”.

But I do agree with your last sentence.

Edit: and I worded it badly, but I didn’t mean that most guys would disagree with my personal experience. But I think a whole lot of guys wouldn’t be attracted to someone who wasn’t traditionally attractive. And the effed up thing is, in a lot of cases it has to do with their own egos and wanting to raise their status with other guys. But even if it isn’t that...how long is physical attractiveness going to last? 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Veronica73

[Trail Blazer]

37 minutes ago, Veronica73 said:

No, the experiences I am talking about definitely did not come about by online dating. I don’t like OLD. But it’s not like online dating is the only way to meet people. (Barring a pandemic) (And I didn’t read the whole thread. He has had *many* of them basically rehashing the same things. I’m not going to slog through another one unless I see a clue that something significant has changed from all the others.)

Exactly.  There are many ways to date, as has been mentioned in not only this thread, but multiple threads created by ZA Dater previously.

You say you don't like OLD, why?  Is it because it makes you feel vain because you're only focusing on men's physical attributes? 

37 minutes ago, Veronica73 said:

And I don’t see what me being an outlier has much to do with anything.

I meant that many guys would see a woman who cares not one iota for physical attractiveness as an outlier, as opposed to outright disagreeing with you.

44 minutes ago, Veronica73 said:

At least if you are aiming for a true friend and life partner. Being shallow doesn’t work for very long. And leads to “settling”

Come again?  Being outright shallow to the point where you're going to be oblivious to someone who has the quality attributes of a true friend and life partner is self-defeating, if indeed those are the things you're after.

I guess the lines can become very blurred when different people's definition of shallow is up for debate.  Am I shallow if I acknowledge that a woman would make a fantastic life partner, save for the fact that I don't find her physically attractive enough for me?

50 minutes ago, Veronica73 said:

Edit: and I worded it badly, but I didn’t mean that most guys would disagree with my personal experience. But I think a whole lot of guys wouldn’t be attracted to someone who wasn’t traditionally attractive. And the effed up thing is, in a lot of cases it has to do with their own egos and wanting to raise their status with other guys. But even if it isn’t that...how long is physical attractiveness going to last? 

People are entitled to be attracted to whomever they find attractive, for whatever characteristic it is they find themselves attracted to.  As we discussed prior, we can't fake attraction.  Nor should anyone feel guilty about what they do or don't find attractive.

I'll admit that it's definitely an ego boost when you hear of buddies/work colleagues talking about your girlfriend as being "hot" or whatever descriptor they may use.  However, at least from my perspective, eliciting any kind of reaction like that is superfluous when the reality is I am with her for the sole reason that I find her attractive, and not because anyone else might, too.

Oh, and just on that, though; please don't tell me that women don't also care about raising their status among their own if they're dating a "cute guy."  Women gossip way more than men.  Women care more about what other women think than men care about what other men think.  And, many, many women do very much care about looks as well.

As for how long is physical attractiveness will last, I believe that it's all relative.  A physically attractive 20 year old will generally be a physically attractive 40 year old in 20 year's time.

You could flip your question on it's head by positing; if that's how unattractive he/she looks NOW, then how unattractive will they be once they start to age?

[Veronica73]

3 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

Exactly.  There are many ways to date, as has been mentioned in not only this thread, but multiple threads created by ZA Dater previously.

You say you don't like OLD, why?  Is it because it makes you feel vain because you're only focusing on men's physical attributes? 

I meant that many guys would see a woman who cares not one iota for physical attractiveness as an outlier, as opposed to outright disagreeing with you.

Come again?  Being outright shallow to the point where you're going to be oblivious to someone who has the quality attributes of a true friend and life partner is self-defeating, if indeed those are the things you're after.

I guess the lines can become very blurred when different people's definition of shallow is up for debate.  Am I shallow if I acknowledge that a woman would make a fantastic life partner, save for the fact that I don't find her physically attractive enough for me?

People are entitled to be attracted to whomever they find attractive, for whatever characteristic it is they find themselves attracted to.  As we discussed prior, we can't fake attraction.  Nor should anyone feel guilty about what they do or don't find attractive.

I'll admit that it's definitely an ego boost when you hear of buddies/work colleagues talking about your girlfriend as being "hot" or whatever descriptor they may use.  However, at least from my perspective, eliciting any kind of reaction like that is superfluous when the reality is I am with her for the sole reason that I find her attractive, and not because anyone else might, too.

Oh, and just on that, though; please don't tell me that women don't also care about raising their status among their own if they're dating a "cute guy."  Women gossip way more than men.  Women care more about what other women think than men care about what other men think.  And, many, many women do very much care about looks as well.

As for how long is physical attractiveness will last, I believe that it's all relative.  A physically attractive 20 year old will generally be a physically attractive 40 year old in 20 year's time.

You could flip your question on it's head by positing; if that's how unattractive he/she looks NOW, then how unattractive will they be once they start to age?

I don’t like OLD because I literally find it practically impossible to narrow down the choices given the information I am given. It’s baffling to me how you can even do that. This is not an insult to anyone who likes doing that. But it’s not really how I work. It’s not because it makes me feel vain. I think it’s because appearances aren’t the main way I am attracted to people. Yeah, I can be attracted to people partly based on appearance. But I know from real life, in-person experience that personality and character trump appearance in every case. For me. And that is a really hard thing to determine on OLD. I’ve had a few boyfriends I never would have gone out with if all I had to judge them by was their appearance. I can’t get a much of a feel for people based on OLD profiles. So how to narrow it down? Appearance. Which like I said before, at least for me isn’t that important in the long run. For me. And I have no interest in searching for a needle in the haystack of choices that are available on OLD.

I didn’t mean to suggest that people aren’t entitled to be attracted to whomever they find attractive for whatever characteristic it is they find themselves attracted to. I guess I shouldn’t have used the word “shallow”. And I don’t care if appearance is really important to other people. I’m glad it isn’t very important to me at all, because that would seriously limit the choices available to me.

As for the rest, I’m not interested in getting into a stupid gender war. I wrote what my experience and perspectives are. And I am a woman who doesn’t have some group of gossipy female friends who all talk together. Yeah, it’s nice to hear other women compliment the guy I am with. (But that has very little to do with why I am with somebody.) But hearing them say what a great guy he is seems like a much bigger compliment to me than how good looking he is. And I’ve seriously dated some very good looking guys. So there’s that. And maybe I am an outlier in the sense that I’m an artsy person. I work in the creative field. As do most of my female friends. And my female friends who aren’t working in a creative field work in health and wellness. I suspect my female friends have a similar outlook. But in any case, my post was about my experience. You almost sound like you are taking it personally or something. I have no interest in getting into a stupid effing gender war. There are too many of those on this forum. Give it a break.

 

(Edit) And I have doubts about how sure you can be about how someone is going to look as they age. Just look at celebrities. Most of them were/are attractive when they were young. Look at them older. Huge range in how attractive they look, lol!

Edited August 13, 2020 by Veronica73

[Trail Blazer]

25 minutes ago, Veronica73 said:

I don’t like OLD because I literally find it practically impossible to narrow down the choices given the information I am given. It’s baffling to me how you can even do that. This is not an insult to anyone who likes doing that. But it’s not really how I work. It’s not because it makes me feel vain. I think it’s because appearances aren’t the main way I am attracted to people. Yeah, I can be attracted to people partly based on appearance. But I know from real life, in-person experience that personality and character trump appearance in every case. For me. And that is a really hard thing to determine on OLD. I’ve had a few boyfriends I never would have gone out with if all I had to judge them by was their appearance. I can’t get a much of a feel for people based on OLD profiles. So how to narrow it down? Appearance. Which like I said before, at least for me isn’t that important in the long run. For me. And I have no interest in searching for a needle in the haystack of choices that are available on OLD.

I didn’t mean to suggest that people aren’t entitled to be attracted to whomever they find attractive for whatever characteristic it is they find themselves attracted to. I guess I shouldn’t have used the word “shallow”. And I don’t care if appearance is really important to other people. I’m glad it isn’t very important to me at all, because that would seriously limit the choices available to me.

If you don't think you can glean enough from an OLD profile to guage whether you're going to be compatible with someone then it's understandable why you wouldn't enjoy the experience.

For most people navigating OLD, they'll swipe either way based solely on attractiveness.  Personally, I find it fantastic, as I can filter out the women I don't find attractive whilst matching with those I do, I can quickly progress to asking them on a date.  From there, we ascertain whether we're compatible or not. 

I can understand why this model does not work for some.  From not getting enough matches, to getting far too many (as is the case of many women) and just being so totally overwhelmed, it's little wonder why, for a lot of people OLD is a bust.

[elaine567]

ZA Dater is in the camp where the matches he  gets are not with the women he finds attractive, in looks and in personality and in personal circumstances.

He does not have the looks, personality and charm to attract the top tier he really wants. That is the main problem.
Up till now he has not had the charisma to charm even one woman. 
Women are usually pretty intuitive, they pick up the signs pretty quick and if a guy is not into them they will only go against that if they see the guy as some sort of a prize...
I guess most of these women know right away ZA is  in his mind "slumming it" by dating them, and no-one really wants that.
Anyone who did "make the grade" was not impressed enough by ZA to take it further...
Most at that eye opening  juncture decide to alter expectations or to improve skills...

BUT now ZA is going to be indifferent and evasive, like that is going to work for him...  It is in effect sulking. 
"Me no like this game." Kid goes to his room whilst everyone else just gets on with the game..
That "avoidant" type strategy may work for some popular guys who are knee deep in women and want to sort out the truly interested from the rest, or who are bored of female attention, or are looking for the naive, the desperate, the damaged... but as a strategy for someone who is struggling to find even one interested woman, it will be a lesson in self sabotage...
Women will only put up with indifferent and evasive guys when there is some sort of a return; good looks, money, fun, power... ie something they want,  with no return they consign them to the bin...
ZA needs to make himself more social, more personable, more "normal", not less, IMV

 

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I struggle to fathom how you've been single your whole life other than it being your own doing.  I can't imagine you're bad enough looking that no reasonable looking woman in her own right has ever found you attractive in any way, shape or form.

OLD aside, because it doesn't really reflect the real life success rate of dating for males - unless you yourself are only attracted to women that are out of your league, then I refuse to believe that there isn't someone out there for you.

You need to ask yourself objectively; "If I were to date 'xyz woman' that I find attractive, would I be punching well above my weight?" 

If you ask yourself that question, what answer do you get?  If the answer is that, objectively, you don't feel like you're "reaching" as such, then you've got to look inwards as to why women who are objectively your equal in terms of physical attractiveness continue to overlook you.

As I said above, OLD aside, because it not a reflection of reality outside its own sphere - there are plenty of very average looking guys who are not only in committed relationships, but who are actually dating or even married to women who are objectively better looking than they are.

Sure, I understand that these guys may have personalities that women find warm and engaging.  They may be smooth talkers, have good jobs, ooze intelligence and charisma.  It's usually how it works. 

However, the point I'm making here is that despite looks, they've managed to leverage off their strengths and sell those (not in an overt/obvious manner) to a respective partner. 

You've listed all of your strengths in a few posts above, where you outlined all of the things you have going for you that make you attractive on paper.  So, what you need to do is believe in yourself that those traits are things you can sell, that they are things that women find desirable - sell it to yourself first and you can easily sell it to anyone else.

I have no further suggestions to you about OLD.  It can be a horrible experience for many guys, I get that.  And, with this pandemic going on, dating in general has been turned on its head.  However, once this virus passes, you need to get out there and sell yourself.

How you do that is something that I cannot answer, either.  You've got to dig deep and believe in yourself, that you are worthy of love and being loved back.

 

Here is the thing though. I do probably over reach when it comes to what I do like. I have used OLD to gauge the sort of person who finds me attractive and the reality is none barring perhaps two in 5 years I found attractive. Mostly the people that find me attractive are very over weight and just not attractive to me at all. OR they are people who are simply not compatible with me at all besides the fact I don't find them attractive.

I do believe looks are my issue among other things. What you need to understand is everything I do almost daily involves punching above my weight and seemingly trying to do the near impossible. It gives me the challenge I like and its always been something I like doing, however the flip side of this is it bring an intensity and seriousness some probably don't like. The more difficult something is the more attractive it is to me. Women tall and slim like me have endless choice and I am not one of the front running choices, that's just the reality, I spent years looking as to why and sure I probably have some idea as to why but those reasons are so fundamental its not like I can be a fundamentally different person to make those issues go away.

Even before COVID I seldom went out really, life revolved around work and everything was geared toward that, clubs and bars didn't hold much interest for me, I tried to grow a circle of friends based on common interests but that never really worked either. People don't gravitated toward me at all ever so in some respects I just found a niche being the guy who gets things done rather than the guys people want to spent time around.

I agree selling is important but I am simply tired of trying to sell what people quite clearly don't want. Sure I believe in ideas but when it comes to dating those ideas are unlikely to become reality but I'd rather believe in a good idea than a reality which doesn't excite me at all.

[ZA Dater]

53 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

ZA Dater is in the camp where the matches he  gets are not with the women he finds attractive, in looks and in personality and in personal circumstances.

He does not have the looks, personality and charm to attract the top tier he really wants. That is the main problem.
Up till now he has not had the charisma to charm even one woman. 
Women are usually pretty intuitive, they pick up the signs pretty quick and if a guy is not into them they will only go against that if they see the guy as some sort of a prize...
I guess most of these women know right away ZA is  in his mind "slumming it" by dating them, and no-one really wants that.
Anyone who did "make the grade" was not impressed enough by ZA to take it further...
Most at that eye opening  juncture decide to alter expectations or to improve skills...

BUT now ZA is going to be indifferent and evasive, like that is going to work for him...  It is in effect sulking. 
"Me no like this game." Kid goes to his room whilst everyone else just gets on with the game..
That "avoidant" type strategy may work for some popular guys who are knee deep in women and want to sort out the truly interested from the rest, or who are bored of female attention, or are looking for the naive, the desperate, the damaged... but as a strategy for someone who is struggling to find even one interested woman, it will be a lesson in self sabotage...
Women will only put up with indifferent and evasive guys when there is some sort of a return; good looks, money, fun, power... ie something they want,  with no return they consign them to the bin...
ZA needs to make himself more social, more personable, more "normal", not less, IMV

 

Sure except I am just tired of bending over backward for no reason at all. Charming is just not something I can do  even when I do try, other guys are masters at it, I am not, for example if the sky is blue I will say its blue, not at its a lovely shade of Pacific blue. I am not altering expectations to what I do not want, there is simply no way I am going down that completely self defeating road paved with nothing good at all.

You right I am not into most of the people I was "forced" to go on dates with because if I didn't go on dates with them I probably wouldn't go on any dates at all. I set out to improve but all I really did was try be someone I am not and you know what the results were no better. Again I can be very positive about what I want to try accomplish with dating but it far exceeds the completely underwhelming reality. I'd rather live the idea of what I want to do than experience an underwhelming reality.

It all boils down to one thing I guess, people I know get to date people they find attractive and well I never get the option, be it circumstance, be it expectations, be it experiences I have learnt the world is a strange place, I have seen many sides of it, met many different people so my view is more rounded than most so when I sit down on a date and am confronted with usually endless amounts of apathy I completely loose interest. The flip side is there are dates I have enjoyed, people I enjoyed interacting with, there are people I have met from time to time enjoyed interacting with but I always know I am punching above my weight and those people have endless options.

It just how things work I guess, nobody can change that unless one can make oneself a viable option which I am not really unless the person wants a project. I set out to improve and I think I have but fundamentally I will always be the same person with the same beliefs and outlooks, no number of Italian wool jerseys will change that.

[Wiseman2]

It sounds like you push people away but then intellectualize everything to fit into your pre-existing state of emotional inertia.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

If you don't think you can glean enough from an OLD profile to guage whether you're going to be compatible with someone then it's understandable why you wouldn't enjoy the experience.

For most people navigating OLD, they'll swipe either way based solely on attractiveness.  Personally, I find it fantastic, as I can filter out the women I don't find attractive whilst matching with those I do, I can quickly progress to asking them on a date.  From there, we ascertain whether we're compatible or not. 

I can understand why this model does not work for some.  From not getting enough matches, to getting far too many (as is the case of many women) and just being so totally overwhelmed, it's little wonder why, for a lot of people OLD is a bust.

You are indeed fortunate to match with people you do find attractive. Simply does not work for me. No amount of picture changes no amount of profiles, mostly I just match with the same sort of people over and over again. Sure we all look to improve, better ourselves each day. Life is about progressing I think, it comes with trying to better oneself.

[ZA Dater]

6 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

It sounds like you push people away but then intellectualize everything to fit into your pre-existing state of emotional inertia.

Not really, I simply have had virtually no dates who

1: there was mutual attraction with

SO no I am not pushing anyone away just not interested in people I don't find attractive. That's the thing I have tried to be more attractive, heck I ever try small talk in general but its all quite useless when I am not meeting people or matching with people I find attractive.

I looked at myself and I concluded the person who would want to date me would need to want someone so far the normal 36yo that the market is probably non existent. There are lots of more viable guys than me, Tinder is probably full of the, guys who exude charm have dating experience.

I have been on dates where I have asked myself why I am even bothering with this date, its akin to squeezing water out of a rock and the lack of compatibility is so fundamental.