How to be more desireable to search better

[ZA Dater]

38 minutes ago, Trail Blazer said:

Exactly.  One sells themselves as a great potential partner in a very different way than they would trying to convince someone to hand over their hard earned in exchange for a domestic appliance.

I don't believe there is much difference at all, why should she date me rather than some other guy, I'll need to in a subtle way trot out why she should and to me that's selling. Nobody like aloofness so I avoid that but I do try to take an interest in them if I find them interesting. The truth is I battle to connect with people in general unless there is a common interest or a good conversation to be had but even then I prefer the conversation topic not really the person topic. I just feel that inclined mostly to take interest in people who take no interest in me. For too long I really tried to take an interest in these dates but I realized it was pointless doing so because that interest was never reciprocated.

There is nothing about me which makes me a great potential partner, almost everyone else would be better than me. Its the simple truth and its pointless trying to sugar coat it, kind, thoughtful, supportive are not qualities which are wanted seemingly. I am very selfless but again that is not really wanted either. However, some people do like those qualities but not in a dating context,  they work in the friend zone context fairly well. 

I have two weekends away, part work, part "fun" and everyone else will be coupled up and again as always I am the odd one out. When it comes to connecting with people its the funny guy with the smile who makes her laugh, makes her smile, talks mostly BS, presents in a fun way, has a happy go lucky approach, he is the guy she is going to go out with. Not the pragmatic, serious, intense, slightly emotionally cold but determined guy who has the seriousness of the world loaded onto his shoulder and who's almost sole reason for existing is work. I am realistic I cant and wont ever be able to compete with those guys at connecting, do I wish I could, sure, at the very least I might be able to have some decent dating experiences but I also recognize fundamentally I am never going to be that person so the absolute best I can hope for are the odd good conversation and "attention" from someone I do find attractive which granted is a truly pathetic way to try "date".  I have tried to connect with people,  the dates I had where I was attracted to them I tried to turn one date into two but no matter what I did it was never enough and I beat myself up about it until I started looking closely at the guys around me who did date well, the guy chatting up the lady at the bar, the guy chatting up the assistant at the clothing store, the waitress at the coffee shop and I realized I simply don't have that skill and do not think that way. 

For me my approach is to be me, just show up and be who I am but I never stupidly overtly thought about what I was competing against,  so yes the brunette pretty politician, she has tons of matches, why I bothered to meet her I don't know. I liked her a lot though but so does a kid looking into a candy store. So yes I know how people connect I am simply to introverted to connect that way and I do not think like that.

[Trail Blazer]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I don't believe there is much difference at all, why should she date me rather than some other guy, I'll need to in a subtle way trot out why she should and to me that's selling. Nobody like aloofness so I avoid that but I do try to take an interest in them if I find them interesting. The truth is I battle to connect with people in general unless there is a common interest or a good conversation to be had but even then I prefer the conversation topic not really the person topic. I just feel that inclined mostly to take interest in people who take no interest in me. For too long I really tried to take an interest in these dates but I realized it was pointless doing so because that interest was never reciprocated.

There is nothing about me which makes me a great potential partner, almost everyone else would be better than me. Its the simple truth and its pointless trying to sugar coat it, kind, thoughtful, supportive are not qualities which are wanted seemingly. I am very selfless but again that is not really wanted either. However, some people do like those qualities but not in a dating context,  they work in the friend zone context fairly well. 

I have two weekends away, part work, part "fun" and everyone else will be coupled up and again as always I am the odd one out. When it comes to connecting with people its the funny guy with the smile who makes her laugh, makes her smile, talks mostly BS, presents in a fun way, has a happy go lucky approach, he is the guy she is going to go out with. Not the pragmatic, serious, intense, slightly emotionally cold but determined guy who has the seriousness of the world loaded onto his shoulder and who's almost sole reason for existing is work. I am realistic I cant and wont ever be able to compete with those guys at connecting, do I wish I could, sure, at the very least I might be able to have some decent dating experiences but I also recognize fundamentally I am never going to be that person so the absolute best I can hope for are the odd good conversation and "attention" from someone I do find attractive which granted is a truly pathetic way to try "date".  I have tried to connect with people,  the dates I had where I was attracted to them I tried to turn one date into two but no matter what I did it was never enough and I beat myself up about it until I started looking closely at the guys around me who did date well, the guy chatting up the lady at the bar, the guy chatting up the assistant at the clothing store, the waitress at the coffee shop and I realized I simply don't have that skill and do not think that way. 

For me my approach is to be me, just show up and be who I am but I never stupidly overtly thought about what I was competing against,  so yes the brunette pretty politician, she has tons of matches, why I bothered to meet her I don't know. I liked her a lot though but so does a kid looking into a candy store. So yes I know how people connect I am simply to introverted to connect that way and I do not think like that.

The emboldened is your question and your answer.  There absolutely is a difference. 

You want to sell an appliance?  A machine whose only purpose is to operate reliably within the parameters it's been designed to?  You trot out the stats, the warranty and maybe free home delivery?  Okay, the choice is logical!  Done and sold!

You want to sell yourself?  Hmmm... an entirely different kettle of fish.  You can be a great guy "on paper" all you like, but if you don't strike an emotional chord with her, if you don't make her laugh and make her feel comfortable, then you're about as useless as an appliance in a scrapyard.

Dude, I'm telling you now, men don't make the rules, we just have to identify those rules and work best within those paramaters.  You adapt to the environment around you if you wish to succeed.

When I was a teenager I thought sex was as simple as squeeze her boobs a couple of times and stick it in.  When it dawned on me that in order to for women to enjoy sex, they (except for one outlier I hooked up with in the latter years) require a bit of foreplay in order to get in the mood and for their bodies to be ready for penetration.

I could have thought, "hey, what gives!?  I'm barred up, I'm ready to go... why am I putting in more effort?  I'm not being met halfway here!"  Really, though, to think that would be a fool's errand.  Men and women are different, despite what modern femenists try to say.  

So, like the additional effort women require to get their bodies ready for penetrative sex, generally the precursor to sex is courting her and making her feel comfortable emotionally.  You can do that by making her laugh.  But you need to do that first, before she'll even let you near her privates.

Of course, I'm speaking in general terms here.  Hook-ups aside, in the context of women who are looking to be in a relationship - they want to see the qualities that they view as being compatible with long-term partnership.  Which is why looks play a (still significant but) not so important role as, perhaps, a woman just after a fling.

So, bottom line here is you sell yourself to a woman, not by trotting out stats.  You sell yourself by actually not talking about yourself!  You sell yourself by giving her the opportunity to talk about herself because you've demonstrated interest in her.  When she's told you about her, you nail the sale by reciprocating a commonality between the two of you!  You want to make her feel like you're on the same wavelength!

Dude, when I went on dates, the last thing I did was crap on about myself.  The key is to get the women talking.  The less I said about myself the better, so long as I maintained an ability to keep her not just engaged, but willingly divulging things about herself.  The more she talks, the more I know about her and the more opportunity there is to ultimately steer the dicussion in the direction I want.

What women want more than anything is to feel like they're being listened to.  That their wants and needs will be validated.  You need to convey to them that their needs will be met whilst delicately balancing within that nuanced message that you are your own man, with your own goals.  That you're self-assured and goal-oriented.  That ultimately, you're someone who she can respect.

My friend, you have some of the ingredients already.  Having a good job, earning very good income and being in an environment with a lot of other well-to-do people is attractive to women.  But that cannot be your only selling point.  If you don't have the looks to match it, then you need to tie it over by exploiting other areas of a woman's weakness; that being charm and charisma.

At the end of the day, if you refuse to change, nothing else will change.  If I refused to change when I realized that enjoyable sex for women isn't just inserting the pork sword, how far do you think it would have gotten me?  I adapted, as required, because I knew that being a caring and attentive lover would serve me well.  And, guess what!?  It has!

Are you ready, willing and able to change in order to achieve the outcome you desire?  Only you can answer that.... 

Edited September 18, 2020 by Trail Blazer

[elaine567]

10 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

When it comes to connecting with people its the funny guy with the smile who makes her laugh, makes her smile, talks mostly BS, presents in a fun way, has a happy go lucky approach, he is the guy she is going to go out with. Not the pragmatic, serious, intense, slightly emotionally cold but determined guy who has the seriousness of the world loaded onto his shoulder and who's almost sole reason for existing is work.

Some women do want the "pragmatic, serious, intense, slightly emotionally cold but determined guy who has the seriousness of the world loaded onto his shoulder and who's almost sole reason for existing is work."
BUT
they also want a guy they can live with and an overly serious, intense, workaholic is not going to be very much fun to be with, day after day, year after year.
They need to see another side to him, a fun, more interesting side. 
If that is apparently absent or not on show, then they will pass. 
Life is hard, bad things happen, if they are going to navigate life as a team, some cold, intense guy, working all the time, is the last thing she needs.

[Weezy1973]

17 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

The truth is I battle to connect with people in general unless there is a common interest or a good conversation to be had but even then I prefer the conversation topic not really the person topic.

As previously mentioned, this is a huge problem. I suspect for you, your inability to connect with people is because you can’t stand the idea of being vulnerable. And without vulnerability there can’t be connection. 

[Chilli]

Very good point actually , do you ever get into personal convos with ladies op , about them or you, not just some topic . When we click with someone there's a lot of personal stuff that brings us closer.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Chilli said:

Very good point actually , do you ever get into personal convos with ladies op , about them or you, not just some topic . When we click with someone there's a lot of personal stuff that brings us closer.

They never ask me anything but irrespective of that I to try and ask personal things but these usually revolve around things they like, experiences they have had, where they grew up and that sort of conversation. Sure I share things about me but again I need to find them interesting otherwise it easy to default into a businesslike conversation.

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

As previously mentioned, this is a huge problem. I suspect for you, your inability to connect with people is because you can’t stand the idea of being vulnerable. And without vulnerability there can’t be connection. 

You are probably right but I simply do not meet enough people I find interesting. Put yourself in my shoes, all I get is rejected so I am going to put up walls and armor, if anything that armor is stronger than ever now which means I can just feel indifferent about the matches I do get. It does not seem to matter as much as it used to. But yes I agree giving that side is important and I have tried with people I liked but inevitably it does not help much and the crushing disappointment is even greater.

[ZA Dater]

19 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

At the end of the day, if you refuse to change, nothing else will change.  If I refused to change when I realized that enjoyable sex for women isn't just inserting the pork sword, how far do you think it would have gotten me?  I adapted, as required, because I knew that being a caring and attentive lover would serve me well.  And, guess what!?  It has!

Are you ready, willing and able to change in order to achieve the outcome you desire?  Only you can answer that.... 

I just ask myself if it is really worth it? As you say women do the choosing and I doubt I'll ever be chosen by anyone I would want to choose, if that be the case I am sure I would have had some success by now. I have been on lots of dates, people from all walks of life, so called "professional" people and its ironic it was only those two or three who displayed any warmth toward me at all, the only ones who complimented me and the few who made an effort.  Maybe I am just a loner. 

Each day I do my daily fitness program and I like it because it gives me something besides work to focus on but does it really make a difference to my dating chances, not really when I sit at home and do not go out. I try be less awkward but it never quite works, I try be less shy and have some success at doing that.

Its just easier to walk around with a lovely ideal than a defeatist attitude to dating, the latter just makes me miserable. I write a bit so I have a pretty vivid imagination so I can create any number of dating scenarios I like in my mind, sometimes albeit rarely I do get to experience some parts of them.

I really admire people who have had good experiences they want but it just seems to me I just get everything I do not want.

[Weezy1973]

On 9/18/2020 at 12:27 PM, ZA Dater said:

Put yourself in my shoes, all I get is rejected so I am going to put up walls and armor, if anything that armor is stronger than ever now which means I can just feel indifferent about the matches I do get.

I do understand. It’s just that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It’s like people with abandonment issues keep getting abandoned. What causes it is their defense mechanisms which are unhealthy in a relationship. Same for you. Your defense mechanisms essentially make you undateable. But the cure for that means opening yourself up and being vulnerable. 

[Chilli]

9 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

I do understand. It’s just that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It’s like people with abandonment issues keep getting abandoned. What causes it is their defense mechanisms which are unhealthy in a relationship. Same for you. Your defense mechanisms essentially make you undateable. But the cure for that means opening yourself up and being vulnerable. 

Yeah that's exactly right too actually , the abandonment thing, it really happens, my ex literally blew us up time and time again, for nothing , but to save herself.

[ZA Dater]

On 9/20/2020 at 1:41 AM, Weezy1973 said:

I do understand. It’s just that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It’s like people with abandonment issues keep getting abandoned. What causes it is their defense mechanisms which are unhealthy in a relationship. Same for you. Your defense mechanisms essentially make you undateable. But the cure for that means opening yourself up and being vulnerable. 

No I think the cure is actually to do arrangement dating. I am back looking at that option and its amazing how interested, interesting, friendly and how much effort these ladies put into conversation. Compare this to Tinder where even if I by some miracle get a good match the lack of effort by them is just usually amazing. With an arrangement I have the choice of attractive ladies who actually do talk, they do communicate, they do put in an effort. Morally it does not really sit well with me but to be frank I am probably at the point where I am not going to get anything I want organically so I might as well open my eyes to alternatives. 

Case in point, 26yo, model and med student is doing seeking. Its not like many of these people are down and out, many are actually interesting from many walks of life, as I am sure many of the attractive people on Tinder are who don't match with me but the point is I wont match with them.

I'll see what comes of it.

[Weezy1973]

@ZA Dater it will work to get that experience you crave. Nothing immoral about consenting adults coming to an arrangement. And the experience, especially if you have sex, might increase your confidence. 
 

But what it won’t do is what I suspect you’re really looking for deep down, and that is give you a sense of self worth. The feeling that you’re worthy of being loved. 

[Chilli]

 

l'd actually give it a go . You might be amazed at just how many quality women there are out there from all walks that just don't seem to find themselves a relationship , or marriage.

[elaine567]

34 minutes ago, Chilli said:

l'd actually give it a go . You might be amazed at just how many quality women there are out there from all walks that just don't seem to find themselves a relationship , or marriage.

But that is not what "arrangement dating" is about, is it?
It is about a young woman being prepared to sell herself to some richer bloke so she can get herself a load of money to pay for her education or get her self on the property ladder or just to exist... Sugar baby dating.
He is going to be paying for an escort basically.
Of course these women are going to be enthusiastic and interested, there is money to be had...

We had a older guy on here for a long time extolling the virtues of his long term sugar baby, it was love, she felt the same, they had a "special" relationship, he was going to marry her... yada, yada, yada. The very minute the contract ended and she had all the money she needed, she cut him dead...

Weezy is correct, there is no validation to be gained from a date you have paid to hang on your every word... a date who is rolling her eyes behind your back and a date who would rather be somewhere else...

Edited September 22, 2020 by elaine567

[Chilli]

Ohhhh , gotcha .

Yeah wasn't quite sure of the intricate working of that particular term but in that case , up to you op.

[ZA Dater]

On 9/21/2020 at 8:45 PM, Weezy1973 said:

@ZA Dater it will work to get that experience you crave. Nothing immoral about consenting adults coming to an arrangement. And the experience, especially if you have sex, might increase your confidence. 
 

But what it won’t do is what I suspect you’re really looking for deep down, and that is give you a sense of self worth. The feeling that you’re worthy of being loved. 

Well I recognize that quite possibly I might never be loved for the person I am so I might as well just accept the fact I am more likely to be liked for material reasons. That has been my point all along, nothing about ME is actually helpful with dating. General knowledge is not helpful, nor I have an interest in politics, nor is being kind and attentive, neither is being ambitious. Instead the deal killers are mostly superficial ones. Nobody cares how thoughtful I might be or how loyal I might be, NO its about "what can I offer them" and that is purely material, nothing else. I have given up believing that anything else really matters. For those reading this being slim and fairly athletic does not help either. 

I have driven Ferrari's and yes I got lots of attention but again that just proved me that I was hanging onto some romantic notion that people actually loved people rather that what the person can offer them.  You might find it hard to believe but the people I chased and found attractive I did because of the people they were, the way they made me feel, the way they made me smile, their conversational ability and the overall person they were. Never did I actually think, well how much money does she make, is her family wealthy, what is her background.

You are right in your last line, 100% right unfortunately I do not think that is achievable. 

[Weezy1973]

52 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You are right in your last line, 100% right unfortunately I do not think that is achievable. 

And that belief is so tough to carry with you. It’s also most likely the real cause of your feelings of suffering through the dating process. I highly recommend watching this TED talk by Brene Brown on vulnerability:

 

 

[Content]

On 9/16/2020 at 6:09 PM, Trail Blazer said:

Why, though?  What was wrong with her?  Too fat?  Too ugly?  Nothing in common?  

If you can't even identify where things go wrong then you'll never be able to move forward.  Every single date I've ever been on, I was able to identify where things went wrong; whether that be something in my control, or not.

Surely you are cognizant of what you want and where the person you're incompatible with falls short.  Or, conversely, where you could have done something a little different that might have brought about a more attractive side to her.

Every date I've been on, I've left knowing that I left no stone unturned with regards to my engagement with that person.  Even when I've found that I'm not attracted to them in person, I leave the date having given them the impression that I was generally interested in them as a person.

You might think that is a waste of time.  Why "pretend" and be "fake"?  Well, it's in my nature to be respectful of others and I believe that the development of good communication skills starts by trying to speak to all people at all levels.

For every date I've been on, 20 were a bust (some took multiple dates to realize this).  I've only genuinely connected with two people since I started navigating the OLD sphere post-separation, which is almost three years ago now.

Bro, in between those 20 dates, I've matched with thousands of women.  Many never replied to me.  I've been stood up on multiple occasions.  Yeah, I've matched with some outrageously good-looking women.  Hell, I've even had them give me a few crumbs by way of a sentence or two exchanged before they unmatched me.

OLD is hard.  I've been lucky enough to have found two gorgeous women that I clicked with, one who's now my ex, and the other being my current girlfriend.  However, in between, it was a lot of rejection, being stood up, or general frustration on my part as the women who I found attractive physically had the I.Q. of a brick.

The point here is that whilst you've got to keep at it, just plugging away aimlessly is kind of pointless.  You need to work on identifying where things go wrong, so, when you do match and meet up with that date who does check most of your boxes, you're in a good position to not blow it.

Are you prepared to work on yourself to make yourself a more viable, attractive date?  Because, whether you like it or not, in the initial stages of dating, women do the choosing and men do the chasing.  If you want to be chosen, you need to give her a reason to choose you.

The only thing I disagree with is saying “clearly something went wrong” with a date if it didn’t workout.

A lot of times nothing went wrong most people just don’t have chemistry. There’s been plenty of dates I went on with ladies who had nothing wrong with them there was just no chemistry and there’s nothing you can do about that. 

[Trail Blazer]

5 hours ago, Content said:

The only thing I disagree with is saying “clearly something went wrong” with a date if it didn’t workout.

A lot of times nothing went wrong most people just don’t have chemistry. There’s been plenty of dates I went on with ladies who had nothing wrong with them there was just no chemistry and there’s nothing you can do about that. 

That's semantics. 

If there's no chemistry then the date surely didn't go right, did it?  Okay, of you want to say that a date only went wrong if it wad calamitous, then perhaps how you'd like to define it.

Point being, it didn't go right and my question was framed as such, that I was trying to ascertain why, exactly, it didn't work out from ZA Dater's perspective.

[Azincourt]

On 9/17/2020 at 12:38 PM, ZA Dater said:

No I genuinely have no idea what goes wrong, I really do not. Like you I resort to the selling approach to try make myself appear attractive to them and yes this entails some small talk and I do really try but after 45 minutes and I have got no real conversation out of the person I frankly cant be bothered to continue and then just pick a topic they can apparently talk about and just exhaust that until its time to go. A lot of the underlying problem is never anything in common with them and no real interest from them at all, most are so disinterested I wonder why the bothered to meet up.

You're interested in women who are young + physically attractive + healthy, emotionally and physically, have a wide network of good friends + great conversationalists + extroverts+  smart+ gentle + friendlly + kind + college-educated + have a good job  + lots of interests + lots of hobbies, and the way you found to make yourself to be attractive to women who have hordes of men after them to date, marry, reproduce with etc, is by making small talk?

You do small talk with the cashier who is ringing your groceries. You make small talk at the dentist's office with the secretary while you wait for the dentist. You make small talk when you're at the dog park and a cute little corgi goes up to you and licks your hands.

You do not make small talk with a 25 year old attractive woman whose dating curriculum vitae puts her way above most women's, and for that part: most men's in the dating world.

You really try to establish a conversation by engaging in small talk that lasts for 45 minutes?

And? That's it? You run out of things to talk about? Why? Do you have any interests in anything other than your job, or do you feel physical pain when you move your mouth and words are uttered? Lung issues? health problems with the musculotory system?

Do you have personal hobbies? What do you like to do other than go to work, hang out with men and women who are old enough to be your parents, then go home, sleep and repeat the process?

I once spent 5 hours a day 3 weeks in a row talking to a woman, that's how long it took me to convince that woman in particular to come spend the night with me. Also paid for her taxi drive from the airport. She was hot. The women you are interested in dating are hot and young, a lot younger than you are, and with all of those qualities they possess and that you desire for in a girlfriend: they can be ''picky.''

You're gonna have to put a lot more effort into getting a girlfriend like the one you want to have. You ain't gonna have anything for free, sorry man.  Do you masturbate? 

Don't. Stop masturbating for months. Stop watching porn. I guarentee you 100% you'll turn into Lord Bryon and John Keats and Aristotle when you're so thirsty for sex even the women you've rejected because they don't match your physical expectations in a woman will start looking like a 21 year old Alizée.

Trust me. When you go weeks, months, without sex/sexual release, you won't have any trouble coming up with conversation with women, and really, it's fun to talk to women. Go talk to them. I've been rejected by literally tens of thousands of women. There's nothing to it.

Or, you could try and meet women who share the same interests and hobbies you have? The same desires, the same appreciations for whatever it is you appreciate. Women who have the same life experiences. Women who don't enjoy talking that much. There's plenty of those around. Lots and lots of different women for you to meet, that you might be not that into at the start, but that you'll grow to become attracted to because you two are a great match.

 

Quote

If I have to sell myself as a viable match I believe they need to the same, which rarely happens because they are just not interested from the off. I just think the context of where I live OLD is actually a lot of rubbish. Whoever on this site said Tinder is just a hookup platform might well be right, which would explain my lack of success with it. Then I go and look at OK Cupid, nobody at all attractive there, then I go the opposite way and head to some so called professional dating platform and again there is no common ground or much conversation to be had. 

If those women you are interested in aren't interested in you from the moment you guys start talking, or from the moment the two of you meet: maybe try dating women who are attracted to you?

If the women you are attracted to aren't attracted to you, maybe what you should do is to take a good look at what you bring to the table and at what they bring to the table. If there's more to them than there is to you, obviously you're not gonna get your heart's desire. Sorry, no matter how  much of a nice guy and regardless of how good I am at finding socks that match, I am not going to get married to a Saudi Princess.

You gotta go for what you CAN get, not for what you want. Because having a strong desire for what you want and not being able to get it because you're lacking in one area or in many areas... you'll be disappointed every time. You have to think real hard about all of this,  and you need to stop shooting yourself on the foot. 

Tinder is mostly a hook-up app. There are plenty of people who find their husbands or wives on tinder, but generally speaking, those who use tinder are looking for something casual, and the people who are the most successful on tinder are the women who are physically attractive and hot, and the men who get the most out of tinder, are men who are either physically attractive or charming/charismatic.   Plenty of average and unattractive men do well with women, but those men tend to have realistic standards in what they can get in women and from women, and they aren't wasting their remaining ''youth'' on women who are way out of their league, physically, mentally, emotionally, and in terms of dating experience.

The reason you are having a hard time finding women who are physically attractive on okcupid is because most women who are physically attractive/young don't need to resort to online dating to find a boyfriend, if that's what they're looking for. It's also the reason why you rarely have men who are young or who aren't unattractive putting a lot of effort and time into online dating apps. They are already in relationships and not looking, or they're single but they're meeting women in real life, and since dating apps are usually a sausage festival, they'd rather meet women through friends in real life, or they just straight up go up to a woman and say 'sup'.

 

Quote

Sure I'd agree aimless is pointless but being so specific seems equally pointless. The reality is I seldom match up with anyone attractive and when I do they either do not speak or they just ghost me. As I say I do no feel any nerves on a date, its just that a meeting, nothing more. Women do the choosing which has been my point all along, I have just resigned myself to never being chosen by anyone I find interesting. I can do the edited pictures have a great conversation but no matter how much the person likes that interaction the unedited pictures just put them off and that just shows me its all superficial. It needs to be said I am tall, quite athletic and no obese and I do keep in shape so its not as if its A and Z. 

If you don't match with attractive women, why is that? Could it be because the women who are physically attractive and are on online dates don't find you to be physically attractive? What are they to do? Give you a chance because it's christmas or what and people should be charitable? 

Hey man can you introduce me to Ivanka?  I'm not a billionaire like her husband but I swear I make a really good chicken chilli. 

Listen, if I get rejected by women who like 6'6'' men, the reason why I'm probably getting rejected is because I'm only 6 feet tall.

If I get rejected by Iranian women who want to marry an Iranian man? It's because I'm not Iranian.

If I get rejected by Victoria's Secret models?  It's because I don't make 5 million euros a year post-taxes.

You gotta look at yourself, man. Look at yourself and ask yourself, ''would I date myself if I was a 25 year old hot woman?''

Be honest. Average men and unattractive men can do fine with hot women, but they ain't gonna get far if they don't have much of a  dating-personality/charismatic/charming- personality to them, and if they're just middle-class, good luck man. It just ain't gonna work. Gotta put them €€€€€ $$$$$$ on the table. It's a fair exchange. My advice?

Not sure if professional prostitution is legalized in Africa/South Africa, but if I was you I'd get the girlfriend experience provided by a top notch escort, not only will you get sex out of it, and I'm guessing they're pretty good at it considering how much my father's friends spend on them per month, but you'll come to figure out if you really like to be around women, or if you just want a girlfriend because your parents are nagging you to get a girlfriend and to make a baby, I dunno man.

Quote

The bold part irritates me the most frankly because once again these women offer up nothing but I must sell myself harder than a salesman selling a car the day before he is due his commission. Again I look around and see the other guys who are being chosen, I have no chance against them, none at all. The things I am strong at do not count in the dating world, I can do what I want but those things are NEVER going to matter. I know this because I try and do my selling on these things and because when I look at how everyone else sells its never a case of selling on those attributes. 

To give you an idea I would not know how to show interest beyond being friendly. As I say instead of settling for someone I do not find attractive it would be a better idea to settle for nothing at all. I can at least window shop.

 

The women you are interested in dating offer nothing? What do you mean they offer nothing? Are you talking about the attractive, young women with lots of positive dating and marriage qualities that you are interested in dating have nothing to offer ? To offer to whom? To you? You don't want what they want to offer? Or are you saying the women who are interested in you have nothing to offer to you because you're not interested in what they have to offer, and because you can't get with the women you want, you insist on saying that your dating life is terrible?

Yes, that's how it works. Women and men sell themselves to the men and to the women they want to be ''bought'' by.

The women who like my eyes, get with me  because they like my eyes. The ones who like my hairline, those get with me because of my hair. Others will like me because of my ''soccer body''. Others will like me when I'm going through my ''Gym bod'' phase. Others like my voice and how I can make it sweet like honey, and hard like Clint Eastwood's, at will. Because I put effort into it.

Others will like me because I have been telling women nonsense and convincing them to believe my nonsense since the moment I was literally born by being very charming and funny, and all of that is easy enough to learn. A guy just needs to go out there and meet hundreds of thousands of women. Hard work? Sure. But did Cristiano Ronaldo become the world's greatest soccer player by sitting on the couch at home and complaining that goalkeepers aren't giving him free goals?

Bottom line is, man, no one gets anything for free. I put a lot of effort and hard work to make myself appealing to the women I want to date.

18-22 years old 6 feet tall 140lbs natural blondes with blue eyes, straight white teeth, clear skin,  and pretty as pretty can be.

Middle-Eastern women who look like Miss Turkey 2014? Yes, please.

For casual, I'm not all that picky. She's so skinny I can see her ribcage 1000 miles away?

Is she 7 feet tall?

Is she flat-chested?

Hey, you don't look a gifted horse in the mouth, but where it concerns a girlfriend?

 I am extremely picky. One of the reasons why  I've collected tens of thousands of rejections from an inordinate number of women, and that's the difference between you and me, bro. I am not afraid of putting in the work. I'm not afraid of being rejected.  Eventually I'll get the women I want because there's so many attractive women out there in the world and I ain't afraid of talking to them,  and sometimes you even get freebies from hot women, that is to say, you don't even have to pretend to care about them as individuals,  like listening to them talk about their problems,  put up with their parents etc.

you just need to put yourself in the right place. I once dated a hot 21 year old because she worked and lived in a neighbhood where the majority of the local residents were at their youngest 75 years old, and there I was walking around, little old me at the age of 25. Since her options in men were so limited because no matter how well-preserved a mummy is, a 75-90 year old man is still old enough to be this young woman's great-great-great-great-great-grandpa, if she wants to date, she's not going to be picky about it.

  On my way there I've been rejected by an enormous number of women. H

Edited September 23, 2020 by Azincourt

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, Azincourt said:

You're interested in women who are young + physically attractive + healthy, emotionally and physically, have a wide network of good friends + great conversationalists + extroverts+  smart+ gentle + friendlly + kind + college-educated + have a good job  + lots of interests + lots of hobbies, and the way you found to make yourself to be attractive to women who have hordes of men after them to date, marry, reproduce with etc, is by making small talk?

You do small talk with the cashier who is ringing your groceries. You make small talk at the dentist's office with the secretary while you wait for the dentist. You make small talk when you're at the dog park and a cute little corgi goes up to you and licks your hands.

You do not make small talk with a 25 year old attractive woman whose dating curriculum vitae puts her way above most women's, and for that part: most men's in the dating world.

You really try to establish a conversation by engaging in small talk that lasts for 45 minutes?

And? That's it? You run out of things to talk about? Why? Do you have any interests in anything other than your job, or do you feel physical pain when you move your mouth and words are uttered? Lung issues? health problems with the musculotory system?

Do you have personal hobbies? What do you like to do other than go to work, hang out with men and women who are old enough to be your parents, then go home, sleep and repeat the process?

I once spent 5 hours a day 3 weeks in a row talking to a woman, that's how long it took me to convince that woman in particular to come spend the night with me. Also paid for her taxi drive from the airport. She was hot. The women you are interested in dating are hot and young, a lot younger than you are, and with all of those qualities they possess and that you desire for in a girlfriend: they can be ''picky.''

You're gonna have to put a lot more effort into getting a girlfriend like the one you want to have. You ain't gonna have anything for free, sorry man.  Do you masturbate? 

Don't. Stop masturbating for months. Stop watching porn. I guarentee you 100% you'll turn into Lord Bryon and John Keats and Aristotle when you're so thirsty for sex even the women you've rejected because they don't match your physical expectations in a woman will start looking like a 21 year old Alizée.

Trust me. When you go weeks, months, without sex/sexual release, you won't have any trouble coming up with conversation with women, and really, it's fun to talk to women. Go talk to them. I've been rejected by literally tens of thousands of women. There's nothing to it.

Or, you could try and meet women who share the same interests and hobbies you have? The same desires, the same appreciations for whatever it is you appreciate. Women who have the same life experiences. Women who don't enjoy talking that much. There's plenty of those around. Lots and lots of different women for you to meet, that you might be not that into at the start, but that you'll grow to become attracted to because you two are a great match.

 

If those women you are interested in aren't interested in you from the moment you guys start talking, or from the moment the two of you meet: maybe try dating women who are attracted to you?

If the women you are attracted to aren't attracted to you, maybe what you should do is to take a good look at what you bring to the table and at what they bring to the table. If there's more to them than there is to you, obviously you're not gonna get your heart's desire. Sorry, no matter how  much of a nice guy and regardless of how good I am at finding socks that match, I am not going to get married to a Saudi Princess.

You gotta go for what you CAN get, not for what you want. Because having a strong desire for what you want and not being able to get it because you're lacking in one area or in many areas... you'll be disappointed every time. You have to think real hard about all of this,  and you need to stop shooting yourself on the foot. 

Tinder is mostly a hook-up app. There are plenty of people who find their husbands or wives on tinder, but generally speaking, those who use tinder are looking for something casual, and the people who are the most successful on tinder are the women who are physically attractive and hot, and the men who get the most out of tinder, are men who are either physically attractive or charming/charismatic.   Plenty of average and unattractive men do well with women, but those men tend to have realistic standards in what they can get in women and from women, and they aren't wasting their remaining ''youth'' on women who are way out of their league, physically, mentally, emotionally, and in terms of dating experience.

The reason you are having a hard time finding women who are physically attractive on okcupid is because most women who are physically attractive/young don't need to resort to online dating to find a boyfriend, if that's what they're looking for. It's also the reason why you rarely have men who are young or who aren't unattractive putting a lot of effort and time into online dating apps. They are already in relationships and not looking, or they're single but they're meeting women in real life, and since dating apps are usually a sausage festival, they'd rather meet women through friends in real life, or they just straight up go up to a woman and say 'sup'.

 

If you don't match with attractive women, why is that? Could it be because the women who are physically attractive and are on online dates don't find you to be physically attractive? What are they to do? Give you a chance because it's christmas or what and people should be charitable? 

Hey man can you introduce me to Ivanka?  I'm not a billionaire like her husband but I swear I make a really good chicken chilli. 

Listen, if I get rejected by women who like 6'6'' men, the reason why I'm probably getting rejected is because I'm only 6 feet tall.

If I get rejected by Iranian women who want to marry an Iranian man? It's because I'm not Iranian.

If I get rejected by Victoria's Secret models?  It's because I don't make 5 million euros a year post-taxes.

You gotta look at yourself, man. Look at yourself and ask yourself, ''would I date myself if I was a 25 year old hot woman?''

Be honest. Average men and unattractive men can do fine with hot women, but they ain't gonna get far if they don't have much of a  dating-personality/charismatic/charming- personality to them, and if they're just middle-class, good luck man. It just ain't gonna work. Gotta put them €€€€€ $$$$$$ on the table. It's a fair exchange. My advice?

Not sure if professional prostitution is legalized in Africa/South Africa, but if I was you I'd get the girlfriend experience provided by a top notch escort, not only will you get sex out of it, and I'm guessing they're pretty good at it considering how much my father's friends spend on them per month, but you'll come to figure out if you really like to be around women, or if you just want a girlfriend because your parents are nagging you to get a girlfriend and to make a baby, I dunno man.

The women you are interested in dating offer nothing? What do you mean they offer nothing? Are you talking about the attractive, young women with lots of positive dating and marriage qualities that you are interested in dating have nothing to offer ? To offer to whom? To you? You don't want what they want to offer? Or are you saying the women who are interested in you have nothing to offer to you because you're not interested in what they have to offer, and because you can't get with the women you want, you insist on saying that your dating life is terrible?

Yes, that's how it works. Women and men sell themselves to the men and to the women they want to be ''bought'' by.

The women who like my eyes, get with me  because they like my eyes. The ones who like my hairline, those get with me because of my hair. Others will like me because of my ''soccer body''. Others will like me when I'm going through my ''Gym bod'' phase. Others like my voice and how I can make it sweet like honey, and hard like Clint Eastwood's, at will. Because I put effort into it.

Others will like me because I have been telling women nonsense and convincing them to believe my nonsense since the moment I was literally born by being very charming and funny, and all of that is easy enough to learn. A guy just needs to go out there and meet hundreds of thousands of women. Hard work? Sure. But did Cristiano Ronaldo become the world's greatest soccer player by sitting on the couch at home and complaining that goalkeepers aren't giving him free goals?

Bottom line is, man, no one gets anything for free. I put a lot of effort and hard work to make myself appealing to the women I want to date.

18-22 years old 6 feet tall 140lbs natural blondes with blue eyes, straight white teeth, clear skin,  and pretty as pretty can be.

Middle-Eastern women who look like Miss Turkey 2014? Yes, please.

For casual, I'm not all that picky. She's so skinny I can see her ribcage 1000 miles away?

Is she 7 feet tall?

Is she flat-chested?

Hey, you don't look a gifted horse in the mouth, but where it concerns a girlfriend?

 I am extremely picky. One of the reasons why  I've collected tens of thousands of rejections from an inordinate number of women, and that's the difference between you and me, bro. I am not afraid of putting in the work. I'm not afraid of being rejected.  Eventually I'll get the women I want because there's so many attractive women out there in the world and I ain't afraid of talking to them,  and sometimes you even get freebies from hot women, that is to say, you don't even have to pretend to care about them as individuals,  like listening to them talk about their problems,  put up with their parents etc.

you just need to put yourself in the right place. I once dated a hot 21 year old because she worked and lived in a neighbhood where the majority of the local residents were at their youngest 75 years old, and there I was walking around, little old me at the age of 25. Since her options in men were so limited because no matter how well-preserved a mummy is, a 75-90 year old man is still old enough to be this young woman's great-great-great-great-great-grandpa, if she wants to date, she's not going to be picky about it.

  On my way there I've been rejected by an enormous number of women. H

You and I are not alike at all. I see absolutely no point in going out obese, apathetic, poorly educated, unambitious people simply because well they way to go out with me. You will go out with anyone I get that.  My life also does not revolve around dating and trying to charm people at every opportunity even if I had the requisite level of charm. Sure, I'll bring up politics on a date and get blank stares, I'll bring up places I hope to visit one day, more blank stares. I had a date with one attractive lady, why because she was impressed I knew where one of her profile pictures was taken, an obscure place in Italy.

None have the same interests I have and when I have found them, well I am last on the list of guys so there is not much point. I am very realistic I simply will not date someone obese, poorly spoken, poorly educated and apathetic. Again unlike you I'd rather have nothing than someone I don't want. Unlike you I do not see women as conquests to take home and see how many I can take home with me. Its guys like you who take them home and guys like me who sit in the corner, that's fine. 

 

[ZA Dater]

22 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

And that belief is so tough to carry with you. It’s also most likely the real cause of your feelings of suffering through the dating process. I highly recommend watching this TED talk by Brene Brown on vulnerability:

 

 

Very profound that in some respects, I don't agree with all of it and for me those sort of feelings don't really exist because each day I am involved in a "war' for most of the waking day there is not time to ever show weakness. So when I go on a date I go with the same ready for war approach in that I simply do not show weakness. 

People don't like me for me, that's just the reality of it. I can do whatever I like but there is always a better option for them. Sure some days I am more at peace with this than others but its my reality. Nobody can help me with it really, the idea I had simply does not apply, the things I am good at are irrelevant, I cant fight the reality forever and I cant ignore the facts forever either.

I don't really think there is an answer to be honest unless by some miracle there is someone I like who actually does like me but I reckon I'd have met at least one by now.

[Azincourt]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

You and I are not alike at all. I see absolutely no point in going out obese, apathetic, poorly educated, unambitious people simply because well they way to go out with me. You will go out with anyone I get that.  My life also does not revolve around dating and trying to charm people at every opportunity even if I had the requisite level of charm. Sure, I'll bring up politics on a date and get blank stares, I'll bring up places I hope to visit one day, more blank stares. I had a date with one attractive lady, why because she was impressed I knew where one of her profile pictures was taken, an obscure place in Italy.

None have the same interests I have and when I have found them, well I am last on the list of guys so there is not much point. I am very realistic I simply will not date someone obese, poorly spoken, poorly educated and apathetic. Again unlike you I'd rather have nothing than someone I don't want. Unlike you I do not see women as conquests to take home and see how many I can take home with me. Its guys like you who take them home and guys like me who sit in the corner, that's fine. 

 

Dude, it's impossible that the only women who are attracted to you are women who are obese, apathetic, poorly educated, unambitious people. It's impossible. Even in the poorest European/South American Countries I've visited or lived in, I always came across a lot of young women who would be considered hot in most parts back in the States dating men who were nothing to look at, very slim men; men who were shorter than 6 feet by quite a bit, men who were nothing to write home about.

These men either had low -paying jobs, or they were full-time college students, and many were also between jobs. That is to say they didn't have a job. They still managed to find decent looking girlfriends. How a man can go an entire life and only have women who are obese or poor, or badly educated?

Women for the most part are not picky. At all. Not even half of what men are, when it comes to wanting a mate. They just want a guy with a job and with a decent personality that doesn't complicate their lives, so I'm thinking that you're ignoring the plain-looking not-obese women who notice you and are interested in you.

What's with the guys like you and guys like me?

I've been rejected often too, man. It's not just you who struggles with dating.  Almost every guy does. You just make it seem like there's only grossly obese women and beautiful women on this planet, and if you can't get a beautiful woman you'll give up.  Maybe you'd be happier if you indeed gave up on getting a girlfriend when your standards are so high that it's nearly impossible for a man who doesn't like dating and who doesn't like to talk to women and who doesn't share any interests and hobbies with these women you want so much, but won't put any effort into getting?

Just talk to women, dude. It's easy. Go up to them and say hi. Ask them out. Hit on them. Flirt with them. Learn about astrology and about the lives of celebrities. I once learned an entire foreign language because the woman I wanted thought it was sexy for foreign men to speak her language.

Man, hot women very rarely give anything for free, and when they do, well you usually pay for it with a std or two.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Azincourt

[basil67]

49 minutes ago, Azincourt said:

. Learn about astrology and about the lives of celebrities.

😂😂

I tend to agree that it's impossible for ZA to be getting only obese matches.....but I think I can safely speak for him when I say that being single would be preferable to dating someone who's conversation is so poor that learning astrology and celebrity is required to make a connection.    I'd head for the hills if either of these topics were raised more than once a year.

[Trail Blazer]

@ZA Dater if you're using Tinder, and you're only getting interest from undesirables, why are you swiping right on them in the first place?

I've used Tinder in South Africa (not literally there, but Tinder Gold) and I cannot reiterate enough just how many gorgeous women live there, especially in Cape Town.

I absolutely disagree that there can only be obese, poorly educated women interested in you.  Surely there's plenty of normal-bodied, somewhat attractive-faced women with a college degree in all of Cape Town?

I think you are being too fussy, too rigid, too... something!  I don't know what, but something is preventing you from seeing beauty in the average woman.  Not ugly, not hot, but just normal.  Because, there's no way that every "normal" woman looks the other way at you...