How to be more desireable to search better

[basil67]

14 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Cool so this can be summarised like this.

Nowhere to meet anyone and no edge or anything that people want. Great at least I know where I am at. Looks will always in my opinion be the make or break but most people will disagree with me.

 

Having no interest in what most others do for fun and meeting others is an even greater problem than looks.  

[Foxhall]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Someone here once said something which made me think "by mid 20s people have their friend, their circle they have done life with, they don't need more friends" and I remember that well because it has stuck with me as being very true to me at least.

you dont really believe that Im sure, what about the people who fall out with their older friends, who move to different countries and so on, who make mistakes along the way and have to start from scratch.

perhaps you are overly sensitive to being rejected,

I think its too early for you to be stressing too much yet,

you have still a few years before your 40, plenty of time for you,

its good actually that you try all that talking to people in coffee shops, I can imagine your shy enough like myself and that would not be especially easy for you,

you dont have to be the loudest in the room either to meet attractive women, if I had any criticism of some of the posts here that would be it, I think the notion is embedded between your two ears now too and you have resigned that your not able to charm and so on

you can learn to be charming in a quiet way by coming across as a decent bloke.

dont give up on the online, maybe try some of these meet up groups that involve activities you have more of an interest in,

you'll find someone along the line that you connect with and then everything looks brighter, can all change surprisingly quickly!

 

 

 

 

 

[Trail Blazer]

3 hours ago, basil67 said:

Having no interest in what most others do for fun and meeting others is an even greater problem than looks.  

I'd go so far as to say that ZA's problems have very little to do with his looks and far more to do with his inability to relate to people.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I'd go so far as to say that ZA's problems have very little to do with his looks and far more to do with his inability to relate to people.

Absolutely. His looks are the least of his troubles...

[ZA Dater]

6 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

I'd go so far as to say that ZA's problems have very little to do with his looks and far more to do with his inability to relate to people.

Sure ok. This is a two way street though. Or is it a case of one again I must bend over backward to do whatever is needed for the sake of a "maybe". Funnily enough the above is actually not true simply be the virtue of the large amount of different people I have met, people with nothing, people with everything, people living in poverty, people living in luxury so I'd argue I can relate to most people actually. The problem really is most others cannot. They sit with their friends have the same conversations about nothingness and that's their world, an insulated world.

I go on a date and I want to actually get to know the person, find out what their beliefs are, find out what their core values are, find out what their opinions are, find out what they like to do for fun, find out their background, are they from SA, did they grow up in the same city, what do they love doing, what made them go into ABC career, do they have sibling, are they close to said siblings. That's what I go out to do but for the most part what usually happens assuming I get a date with someone I find attractive, they cannot even relate to those sort of questions which has me wondering what the heck I should talk about. If they do and we get chatting well its a rather nice time where the conversation flows but this is rare. SO I wouldn't not say its about me not being able to relate I would say its about them not relating to me.

I have had to take things fairly extreme before whereby I simply make up a lot of nonsense because there are parts of me which while true people just either don't believe or they cannot relate to. Mostly that involves paragraph 1. The nonsense I make is the stuff of little consequence really, it just to make me look very ordinary because I have learnt conformity is fairly important apparently.

The inherent issue and it was always going to be this is I simply decided not to fit in growing up, I preferred  being the outlier and as ironic as this might seem this worked very well in high school where I was considered a good catch, alas I had other focus areas at the time. That is about the only time I ever had any good interest.

Despite what some of you might think I do actually like meeting people in the work context. There is very little social life about me, in fact I would say there is basically none, again I have never had one so I am not really missing anything. In SA so much around socialising revolves around drinking that already I just don't fit in there at all so I just avoid it.

[Weezy1973]

If only you could see how much you contradict yourself. You’re talking in circles, and continuing on your same cycle. 

[elaine567]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

go on a date and I want to actually get to know the person, find out what their beliefs are, find out what their core values are, find out what their opinions are, find out what they like to do for fun, find out their background, are they from SA, did they grow up in the same city, what do they love doing, what made them go into ABC career, do they have sibling, are they close to said siblings.

This is ridiculous. You are putting women on the spot and faced with twenty probing personal questions, most will clam up, which is what you are experiencing. 
It is a date not an interrogation.
These are the things you find out naturally over the course of time, there is no hurry to find all that out on day one...
You are a complete stranger, what gives you the right to cross examine and no doubt judge anyone on their beliefs and core values?
Asking personal questions makes most people feel uncomfortable, it is no fun being on the end of that.
This is what small talk is for, it fills up the silences without getting personal, deep or more complicated or putting people off unnecessarily.
It makes strangers feel comfortable and relaxed, so they want to tell you anecdotes and stories about their life or they can continue on with the small talk, and next time when they feel more comfortable they may open up more...

[Wiseman2]

Have you considered moving? 

[Veronica73]

I didn’t read this whole thread. (Or much of it at all actually.) But didn’t you consider at one point just buying a partner? Like a mail order bride/get a wife from a disadvantaged foreign country sort of thing once? Or be a sugar daddy or something (sorry if I’m getting you mixed up with somebody else.) If so, can you give a quick recap on how that went?

[ZA Dater]

On 8/17/2020 at 1:39 PM, elaine567 said:

This is ridiculous. You are putting women on the spot and faced with twenty probing personal questions, most will clam up, which is what you are experiencing. 
It is a date not an interrogation.
These are the things you find out naturally over the course of time, there is no hurry to find all that out on day one...
You are a complete stranger, what gives you the right to cross examine and no doubt judge anyone on their beliefs and core values?
Asking personal questions makes most people feel uncomfortable, it is no fun being on the end of that.
This is what small talk is for, it fills up the silences without getting personal, deep or more complicated or putting people off unnecessarily.
It makes strangers feel comfortable and relaxed, so they want to tell you anecdotes and stories about their life or they can continue on with the small talk, and next time when they feel more comfortable they may open up more...

Ok next time I'll sit and talk about the weather in Bolivia. It's a date I am going to ask about the person else I might as well have a business meeting. My view on small talk is well known, I'll do it to a degree but it bores me over time.

You forget everyone judges.

[ZA Dater]

On 8/17/2020 at 1:43 PM, Veronica73 said:

I didn’t read this whole thread. (Or much of it at all actually.) But didn’t you consider at one point just buying a partner? Like a mail order bride/get a wife from a disadvantaged foreign country sort of thing once? Or be a sugar daddy or something (sorry if I’m getting you mixed up with somebody else.) If so, can you give a quick recap on how that went?

I live in a third world country.  

I tried arrangements but a few dinners told me it's not for me, it's better than dating in the sense I have much better choice and they put in effort to look good but it's too fake.

Well done to anyone who gets it right because I don't think I am ever going to.

[Veronica73]

Okay, thanks for the update.

[OatsAndHall]

On 8/17/2020 at 1:50 AM, ZA Dater said:

I go on a date and I want to actually get to know the person, find out what their beliefs are, find out what their core values are, find out what their opinions are, find out what they like to do for fun, find out their background, are they from SA, did they grow up in the same city, what do they love doing, what made them go into ABC career, do they have sibling, are they close to said siblings. That's what I go out to do but for the most part what usually happens assuming I get a date with someone I find attractive, they cannot even relate to those sort of questions which has me wondering what the heck I should talk about. If they do and we get chatting well its a rather nice time where the conversation flows but this is rare. SO I wouldn't not say its about me not being able to relate I would say its about them not relating to me.

 

I believe you need to slow down in this aspect. Conversation during the first few dates absolutely need to be light and fun. If deeper aspects of a woman's life, personalty, background (etc) come up, they need to come directly from them and in an unsolicited manner. That is the key to becoming a quality dating conversationalist; keep the conversation enjoyable and engaging while gradually getting a feel for the depth of a person. In my longer relationships, it has typically taken at least a month worth of dating before we begin discussing the more intricate parts of each other's lives.

You're jumping the gun if you're pushing into these areas of people's lives early on.

[ZA Dater]

4 hours ago, OatsAndHall said:

 

I believe you need to slow down in this aspect. Conversation during the first few dates absolutely need to be light and fun. If deeper aspects of a woman's life, personalty, background (etc) come up, they need to come directly from them and in an unsolicited manner. That is the key to becoming a quality dating conversationalist; keep the conversation enjoyable and engaging while gradually getting a feel for the depth of a person. In my longer relationships, it has typically taken at least a month worth of dating before we begin discussing the more intricate parts of each other's lives.

You're jumping the gun if you're pushing into these areas of people's lives early on.

Then in my view there is little to actually talk about.

1: Politics: no

2: Current affairs: no

3: Work: no

4: Sport:no

5 Far flung holiday destinations: maybe

6: COVID: ok

"light and fun" "enjoyable and engaging". See I find most of the above engaging but most people don't. Perhaps I should spend a hour talking about pets or perhaps the weather or perhaps if the electricity is about to go off (common in SA at the moment). I can do some banter but to do this I actually need someone who can grasp dry humour, again rare. I can talk about the book I am writing but again most are not interested in that. I can try latch onto a hobby they like and try talk around that.

There is never any connection at all. Which I guess is where it all crashes down like an avalanche in the Alps. Once this starts going the result of the date is only going one way. I never get any sense they find me attractive, agreeing to meet is hardly much of an endorsement.

I do know what makes people attractive I just have none of those qualities. Humour, not really, charm, definitely not, light hearted, definitely not either, super physically attractive, nope not that either, though at lease I am slim and athletic, which counts for nothing. I have a friend who has all of those things and he doesn't want for dates, he is late 40s but can date mid 20's because he is just fun and has all those qualities.

My point is even the best version of me is not good enough, that's my reality. I always believe you cant make people like you but you can try and be likeable, which in my case is once again not enough. I'd like someone to teach me to stop caring about this.

 

[elaine567]

58 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I do know what makes people attractive I just have none of those qualities.
Humour, not really,
charm, definitely not,
light hearted, definitely not either,
 I have a friend who has all of those things and he doesn't want for dates, he is late 40s but can date mid 20's because he is just fun and has all those qualities.

So you acknowledge that it is not your face that makes you unsuccessful.
No fun, no date.
That is how it works. 
Fun = likeable and few women want to be with a man who is not likeable.
The first date is your advert. It is there to show a glimpse of who you are.
She will be sussing you out for compatibility as a life partner.
No woman wants to be interrogated and be with some overtly serious and boring guy for life. That is the reality.
Your list of "banned" subjects is nonsense, they are not banned.
BUT there is a big difference between a man who can touch on any of these subjects in a light and entertaining way and a guy who gets bogged down and presents his knowledge in a such a dull way it would bore even the most interested.
You are filling the space  reserved for small talk, banter and fun, with your version of dry humour ( which they never get), serious talk and personal probing questions.
Its a losing formula for a first date.

[Wiseman2]

Maybe you need to move to Europe, Australia or the US. You don't seem to be doing well where you are.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

So you acknowledge that it is not your face that makes you unsuccessful.
No fun, no date.
That is how it works. 
Fun = likeable and few women want to be with a man who is not likeable.
The first date is your advert. It is there to show a glimpse of who you are.
She will be sussing you out for compatibility as a life partner.
No woman wants to be interrogated and be with some overtly serious and boring guy for life. That is the reality.
Your list of "banned" subjects is nonsense, they are not banned.
BUT there is a big difference between a man who can touch on any of these subjects in a light and entertaining way and a guy who gets bogged down and presents his knowledge in a such a dull way it would bore even the most interested.
You are filling the space  reserved for small talk, banter and fun, with your version of dry humour ( which they never get), serious talk and personal probing questions.
Its a losing formula for a first date.

Oh well. To be honest when I go on a date I am not looking for a life partner so perhaps that's the other problem. I am serious, its just how I am but I guess this thread has re enforced my already fairly rigid belief that I simply have not one attribute anyone wants. Which I guess is fine. I too am not going to eat lemons if I can have an orange instead, I just need to find a way to buy my oranges because just about the only thing I can get for free are sour lemons whilst everyone else can get an orange every so often for free.

Everything about me makes me unsuccessful at dating, I have ZERO good qualities which are marketable and wanted in the dating market, not one. Other guys get rejected because well she might not like one thing, I don't even get a start because there is nothing to like at ALL. Its not self pity, its the truth .

That's the thing I have become so numbed by rejection and lack of success I don't really feel anything about either anymore besides wanting just one great experience with someone who actually does like me. But you know what, I had my opportunities and messed them up so even if someone I liked did like me I am sure I'd just mess that up too.

[basil67]

6 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Everything about me makes me unsuccessful at dating, I have ZERO good qualities which are marketable and wanted in the dating market, not one. Other guys get rejected because well she might not like one thing, I don't even get a start because there is nothing to like at ALL. Its not self pity, its the truth .

 

No, it's self pity...and exaggeration.  You've repeatedly said that you are kind and thoughtful and honest.  And you are fit and healthy.   These are all desirable traits - you don't have zero.    On the down side,  it's not enough to make up for being unable to make an emotional connection similar to how your mate does.   

[Wiseman2]

It's like you're a stranger in a strange Land 👽

[ZA Dater]

7 hours ago, basil67 said:

No, it's self pity...and exaggeration.  You've repeatedly said that you are kind and thoughtful and honest.  And you are fit and healthy.   These are all desirable traits - you don't have zero.    On the down side,  it's not enough to make up for being unable to make an emotional connection similar to how your mate does.   

Nobody connects with me and I connect with nobody so I guess its all pretty useless really. I date with logic, other people date with emotions. One works the other does not. Everything I do is more defined by logic and thought then it is by emotions, I am definitely ruled by the head not the heart.

I have done a few different things a few times and not matter how many times I do them the results never get any better. One thing though which is ironic as cold as I am I find warm people very attractive, perhaps half a dozen times I come across people who do ask how I am, do take an interest in me and do see the good but they are not into me as a dating proposition.

[GorillaTheater]

If dating was entirely about logic, the species would die out in around 80 or so years because there's no logical reason to involve ourselves in a romantic relationship that is almost certainly going to involve some level of messiness and aggravation/pain. But I'm also thinking that Spock didn't get laid much.

If you're all about logic, then what is the logical reasons for dating? Even with you there must be some emotional aspect to the desire to connect with other people, no?

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, GorillaTheater said:

If dating was entirely about logic, the species would die out in around 80 or so years because there's no logical reason to involve ourselves in a romantic relationship that is almost certainly going to involve some level of messiness and aggravation/pain. But I'm also thinking that Spock didn't get laid much.

If you're all about logic, then what is the logical reasons for dating? Even with you there must be some emotional aspect to the desire to connect with other people, no?

My expectations of what I want have pretty much fallen drastically. I'd just like a few nice dates, a few shared experiences and I can pretty much say I have done dating. Is that ideal, not really, can I expect more, not really. I look around and it must be nice to have someone you find attractive find you attractive, not much logic to that but for me that's pretty much impossible. It must be a nice feeling that. I have mostly given up on ever experiencing that because when I look around I am not finding any guys my age in my position so that's quite telling.

 

[basil67]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

perhaps half a dozen times I come across people who do ask how I am, do take an interest in me and do see the good but they are not into me as a dating proposition.

Or you're not into them because they don't fit your criteria.   It works both ways.

[Weezy1973]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Nobody connects with me and I connect with nobody so I guess its all pretty useless really.

Frankly, your hyper focus on attractiveness is misplaced. If you can genuinely connect with people, magically you’re attractive.

Since you can’t; you’re not.

[OatsAndHall]

The one commonality in your threads is this, @ZA Dater; your refusal to take steps to become a more sociable individual. Not only do you refuse to do so, you look down on societal norms that make dating enjoyable. On many of your threads, you have commented on the fact that you essentially find simple conversations mundane and not worth your time. You continually describe a lack of connection with people but you see the necessary steps towards making that connection to be boring. One one hand, you state that you're trying to become a better conversationalist but then turn around and state that a,b,c through x, y, and z topics don't "interest you." 

I would have some empathy towards your situation if you didn't have such disdain for simply learning to hold a conversation with someone. On our first date, my gf made it know that she was a Stephen King fan which I am too. She's more zealous about the topic than I am but we talked about his works for two hours. Yes, there were other topics I would've enjoyed discussing as well but I ran with it and it turned out to be an incredibly enjoyable date. The same thing happened on our second; she enjoys Tarantino films and I do as well. As such, we talked about his films for several hours. AGAIN, there were other things I would have enjoyed talking about but WE WERE HAVING FUN.

Edited August 21, 2020 by OatsAndHall