Mother Girlfriend issue

[FudgeSwirl]

There are two issues here that you should sort through before you even move into your next apartment together.

First of all, your mother is very co-dependent.  It's one thing to accept money for important living expenses but another to use it towards frequent trips especially one that was quite expensive.  Also based on your first post, she doesn't seem keen on wanting to work if the most she will do is part-time and still is refusing to contribute to her own bills.  It's important to take care of family members in need and it is wonderful you want your mom to be happy because mental health is important.  However if she is accepting money from you when she is not in dire need and is more than capable of taking care of herself that is a different story.  While you are not married yet your girlfriend's reaction stems from her fear that one day that 3% of your salary is going to grow into an amount that is going to start to affect how you both live or that your mom will convince you to let her live with you to get out of paying her bills while she continues to live a life of luxury. 

In the same token, your girlfriend cannot dictate your relationship with your mom nor how you use your money.  She also has to learn to be able to voice her worries in a healthy way rather than engage in irrational behavior even if she doesn't like your mother.

Before you can talk to your girlfriend, you have to decide what you want to do about your mom.  If you want to keep giving her money indefinitely, set a limit such as 3% max no matter what.   If you eventually want to stop giving your mom money, maybe set a goal where she has to get a full time job by -insert due date- before she gets cut off but until then you will continue to give her money.  This decision is important not to keep your girlfriend but rather for yourself in the future.  Just like we want healthy boundaries with significant others there should be boundaries even with family members.

No matter what you decide regarding your mom, have a calm discussion with your girlfriend about the matter.  If you are going to continue to financially support your mom explain why before hearing how she feels.  If she's sill unreasonable then you have to really think what you want to do with your relationship.  If your choice is eventually cutting your mom off, your girlfriend will obviously be glad as it shows you are not going to let anyone take advantage of you but you need to convey to your girlfriend the importance of both of you maintaining good communication so you can be able to talk about anything in the future.  You should also discuss finances with our girlfriend at this point if you are that serious with one another so you don't run into another issue with money months from now even if it has nothing to do with your mom.

By the way, I'm sorry that you all got covid but am glad you are all okay and recovered.

[Helsing001]

So, I had my big talk to my mother. To be honest I asked my grandmother to attend (my mother's mother) because I believe she is the smartest of us all and I had a guess about how my mother would react. By the way, I never mentioned, my mother is single as my father passed away many years ago.

I told my mother that I would like her to be more independent but there was no way I could convince her it's not about money. I told her that she can still find a full time job and it would help her too. She told me she can't even imagine having a full time job again as she doesn't have a college, she wears glasses and can't look into computer screens without having headaches and has some back problems. I told her that she should make a plan for her retirement, as her pension will for sure be very low because she was so many years unemployed and now only works half time. She said this is not my problem. I told her it is as she is my mother, I love her and moreover, I'm giving her money now to have for a living. She told me she never needed my money. I couldn't believe it. I told her that it was she that hadn't talk to us for a week when I switched from paying her whole bills and groceries to giving her a fixed amount of money. She said she had just been scared but then realized she didn't need my money. I was a little shocked, I asked her why didn't she tell me in this case to stop giving her the money as I am her son and of course I would have continued helping her in the future from time to time, but out of my choice, not out of being afraid she can't afford a living otherwise. She just got angry.

I don't remember when in the conversation I told her about her trips. She said they are also not my concern. I couldn't make her understand my point, that if I give her some amount of money monthly it becomes my concern.

My grandmother didn't take any sides in most of the times. She just said that she can understand my mother when she says it'd be very hard for her to find a job at her age because she knows a lot of young people being unemployed. I had in the past, over the phone, told my grandmother about my gf being angry over this and now she told me that they all love my gf a lot, if I have a concern over giving money to my mother they can understand, but she thinks it was not my gf's concern about how or if I give money to my mother, as she knows I have a big salary, way bigger than my gf's and she is sure that giving money to my mother doesn't affect in any way financially our relationship. Also, she mentioned that if we were to buy a house or apartment she and my grandfather will give as a big amount of the total cost as they have promised for a long time and that she thinks my gf should take this into consideration and consider the way I help my mother to be just a way of us giving something back for what we receive. To be honest, I agree with her.

Regarding my mother, the conclusion was that she couldn't understand what I was actually trying to tell her but she doesn't want any money from me anymore. I believe that if she understood, we wouldn't be in this situation, but this is just me being philosophical. 

I want to talk to my gf too, calmly as FudgeSwirl said but probably not today as I don't have the strength anymore. Also, I learned yesterday that her parents are about to break up.. I don't want to justify what she did, but I think she's very upset and doesn't want to show it.

PS: after reading this again I feel like it shows I might not be the perfect son. I was just trying to not make the whole thing about money for her own good in my opinion, regardless of the fact that it all started from my gf being mad and my mother only made it about money.

[elaine567]

On 8/4/2020 at 3:37 PM, Helsing001 said:

Only 2 days after our last fight, she started showing love to me again. She said sorry for a lot of things she said in the email. Even told me delete the email. Just told me to talk to my mother as she trust me to make her understand that she needs to be more independent from me.

Your gf is being nice, as she smells victory...
She is urging you to oust her rival ie your mother, and she therefore wins...

[Timshel]

On 7/15/2020 at 9:20 AM, Helsing001 said:

Actually coming to think about it I believe my gf and my mother have a lot in common.. for example, my gf always asks for little gifts, but if I sum them up monthly, they surely cost more than what I give to my mother.

 

 

First, you are a fine son.  While it may not be necessary to give your mother money, you have done so out of love and have budgeted responsibly so that you have never given more than you are financially comfortable.  The amount you choose to give to your mom is your own to make, as you are neither married or engaged.

I quoted the above Helsing because there does seem to be similarities which create opposition/competition between your gf and mother.  Your gf isn't comfortable with you helping your mother financially, although your gf earns significantly less than yourself and would like to benefit from your salary as well.

My advice would be to do what you feel comfortable with your money.  You are financially responsible and independent, so there isn't a reason to bend to how other people would like you to spend your money.

I think this situation requires decisiveness on your part.  Both your mother and gf will need to be comfortable with your decision.  Be careful with your gf, she is being pushy around issues that frankly are none of her business.

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Helsing001 said:

I had in the past, over the phone, told my grandmother about my gf being angry over this

It would be best not to triangulate or insinuate your gf disapproves, etc. and keep this between you and your mother.

[elaine567]

14 minutes ago, Timshel said:

Be careful with your gf, she is being pushy around issues that frankly are none of her business.

Re quoted for truth.

[Timshel]

Helsing is displaying a pattern with women.  The difference is one gave birth to him and has known him his life.  The other, is showing disrespect to his mother, with no provocation that I have read.  

If you were to marry your girlfriend Helsing, what do you think she will do with your time/affection and money toward your mother?  What do you think she will do with your money in general?

[Acacia98]

6 hours ago, Helsing001 said:

PS: after reading this again I feel like it shows I might not be the perfect son. I was just trying to not make the whole thing about money for her own good in my opinion, regardless of the fact that it all started from my gf being mad and my mother only made it about money.

I think you hurt your mum's feelings. I believe she's trying to salvage some of her dignity by saying she doesn't need your money. Look, it's possible that you don't have a realistic view of your mum. Many people think their aging parents are stronger and more able than they really are. Even when they start to struggle cognitively and in other ways, they don't really see it. So your telling your mother than she should be more financially independent might not be particularly helpful depending on her circumstances.

Why don't you help set something up for your mum? Maybe a savings account or some kind of retirement fund or something. Put something in it for her every month and encourage her to do the same so that, when she does retire, she has a nest egg. Or maybe you can make arrangements for you and her to talk to a financial planner together. It's one responsible thing you can do to help her. And it could be a lifesaver if, down the road, you lose your income or something happens to you and you can no longer help her.

Your girlfriend... Let's just say I don't feel optimistic about the future of your relationship if you guys get married. You guys seem to be on completely different pages where familial roles and responsibilities are concerned. To make matters worse, she seems to think she's your mum's rival, and she has a sense of entitlement over your money and a desire to control your actions.

Now, don't get me wrong. I think she has a right to be concerned about your possible incompatibility and to even end the relationship over it. But she has no right to tell you how you should relate to your mother. It's "small things" like this that end up becoming "big things" and destroying marriages.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Acacia98
Adding an explanation

[FudgeSwirl]

You are not a horrible son at all.  

I don't think your request was unrealistic because in truth, you never know what's going to happen in your own future in terms of your employment and financial situation.  There comes a time where all of us at an undetermined age will start to lose our independence so it is my belief that people should enjoy being independent and capable of all they can do and be now since one day some, if not all, of those things will be lost.  I totally understand that this is a bad time for employment for all, but if I understood the point you were trying to convey correctly all you do is want her to try and that you will help her if she can't take care of herself.

I don't think her saying that she didn't need your money was a lie to cover her embarrassment because if she truly did need your money she would not be able to spend it on non-essential things like the trips.  Being a widow, she probably was afraid she wouldn't be able to financially be stable.  Now that her lack of need for extra money is out in the open, for now don't give her your 3% as she expressed.

I'm glad you will eventually have a talk with your girlfriend and hope it goes well.  I'm sorry to hear about what's happening between her parents.

My only recommendation regarding the future of your relationship with your girlfriend or any girl you may date after her if your current relationship doesn't late is to never disclose your significant other's private thoughts or problems with anybody, especially family members.  When a couple is having a private conversation, it should be a safe space knowing that whatever is said stays between you both.  

[Wiseman2]

Over enmeshed families often try to make outsiders the heavy. There's no reason to throw your GF under the bus.

This is between you and your mother so whatever you discuss in your multigenerational family powwow should not involve your GF.

You also need to stop stringing the  GF along and pretending she has a voice or a future when in fact you only ran this by her to make her look like the bad guy at your powwow so you could all talk behind her back.

[Helsing001]

My gf never asked me for money. I know I said about her asking for small gifts, I assume I was a little upset when I wrote that, I meant asking for example if I'll buy her icecream when walking through the park or I don't know, doghnuts etc She does this more often than, I don't know, the last girl I was with but she doesn't even know how much I spend on things, how much I save etc. She doesn't control my money and never will. 

I know I shouldn't have told my grandmother about this, I agree with you, Wiseman and FudgeSwirl.. I could say I needed badly to talk to someone, it's still not OK.

Wisemen, I must say I don't agree that I wanted to talk my gf behind her back.. it was not the purpose of my meeting with my mother, I was even careful to always use 'I', not 'we' or 'she'. What I said to my mother was 100% my view of things.

FudgeSwirl, you understood my point perfectly, all I wanted was for her to try or at least know she has a plan for the future. In my previous posts I didn't want to get lost in details. I never mentioned she still lives with her parents. I know in the west it's not usual, but in Romania, for our parents and grandparents this was usual stuff (not for young people anymore). Her parents pay half of her bills. What I gave her only covers her part and a little more maybe.  They pay for anything that gets broken in that house. It's a very big house. Some things are very expensive to replace or fix. They work the garden so they are not full of weeds, they plant fruit trees and vegetables. They are around 80. I'm afraid of what will happen when they'll not be there anymore. Who will pay for everything? I feel this pressure of me having in the future more responsabilities there than I have in my own house. I totally want to help her, I would also like her to realise these things and try to improve thiongs now, when she is still able. Did I mention that all the money she saves goes for trips and whenever she gets sick it's me and my grandparents who help her? I love her, she's my mother and yes, I never asked my friends about this, maybe this is something everyone goes through or maybe it's not usual. I believe it's not so usual.

I talked to my gf. She told me that last year when she got angry over this it was because she loves me so much and she knew how much I was suffering, that she's sure there were nights when I couldn't fall asleep thinking about this (she is right). She found my mother to be of fault, so she blamed her. 

I asked her: 'but last month, did I look upset because I was giving money to my mother? why were you so angry'. She said I didn't look angry. I'm a little dissatisfied with her answer, to be honest. She just said that in the last year my mother got angry with us a lot of times with no good reason and when I told her about the money I will always give her, about how I'm afraid she will sell part of her garden just to have money for living (I'm really fond of the house I grew up in, but of course I shouldn't have told that, if my mother is not able to earn a living otherwise, it's normal for her to sell anything, I know this now) she realised she will always have to deal with the issue of my mother. Sounds to me as she wanted to break up with me because of my mother in general, not money in particular. She says she knows she shouldn't remember past things and get upset because of them and that she's really sorry. She will try not to do it in the future.

She said she is really sad that I got into a fight with my mother. I believe her as she really looked sad. I just got a raise in salary last week (so 3% would now be 2%). I never told my mother because she made it all about money, so I think this would upset her even more. My aunt knows as she has a printer and helped me with some papers. My gf told me yesterday: 'promise you won't get mad? I think you should tell your mother. Otherwise, when you will finally tell her or if she finds out from your aunt she will be even more upset.' This doesn't sound like someone who sees my mother as an opponent. 

[FudgeSwirl]

Where I live it used to be common for three generations to even live in one house so I can see your mom sharing a house with her elderly parents.  A garden is a load of work and I can understand your worry about what will happen to your mom when your grandparents aren't around one day.  When that day comes, I am sure you will offer your mom your support but only what you can.  Everything you are saying only justifies the conversation you had with your mother.  Hopefully, though, that conversation will help her garner a plan for her own future.  Money issues within families are not unusual.  I went through this when I was married so I understand.  

I think your girlfriend was telling the truth when she said she was angry (and it also sounds like resentment) with your mother because of what the situation was doing to you mentally.  She just has to be open with you at all times.  Breaking up over your mom and not the money issue sounds silly without her expressing what's bothering her specifically.  Just keep the lines of communication open with her and don't hesitate to express how you feel about anything with her either.

I don't think there's anything wrong with not making your raise something you have to tell your mother immediately.  It's the type of thing that comes up in a casual conversation: "Mom, guess what?  They gave me a raise."  If your aunt tells her and your mother gets upset, you can just explain to her that your aunt only knew because you needed her printer and that you were going to tell her the good news whenever you saw her next.  Since she saw your last conversation all about money between you and her, make the raise your achievement, which it is so that isn't a lie.  Any normal parent would be happy for you and move on.  If hearing you got a raise upsets her, that's on her and not you.

[Ruby Slippers]

On 8/21/2020 at 11:12 AM, Helsing001 said:

I don't remember when in the conversation I told her about her trips. She said they are also not my concern. I couldn't make her understand my point, that if I give her some amount of money monthly it becomes my concern.

You are correct that as long as you're giving her money, you have every right to set boundaries about how that money is handled. Let's say you had an alcoholic brother. You'd probably be fine giving him money for treatment, a place to stay, etc., and not be OK giving him money for vodka. 

It's 100% reasonable, healthy, and beneficial to define exactly how much money you're giving for what. For example, I'm giving you X amount toward mortgage/bills/food. I'm giving you ZERO money toward lavish vacations, as that is not my place and it's up to you to work for that income yourself if you want to travel.

And you're right, it's not up to you whether your mother sells her house and downsizes so she has more money to live on and more financial independence. Now, if she's communicated that you'll someday inherit that house, it could make sense to invest something into it, since it won't be throwing money in the wind (unlike the money spent unnecessarily on her vacations).

[CaliforniaGirl]

On 8/12/2020 at 11:56 AM, Ruby Slippers said:

It's great that you recognize this is an issue, rather than denying it.

In these cases, it's usually not the money that's the problem - it's the boundary issues. I suggest setting firm boundaries with your mother about how much you're able and willing to help and then sticking to them firmly. Communicate to your gf what the boundaries are, and then show her consistently over time that you will not be pushed or manipulated beyond them. This will give her a feeling of peace knowing that your mother's demands won't incrementally creep into your lives and wreak havoc.

I haven't read it, but I've heard good things about a book on this subject by Henry Cloud called "Boundaries."

I agree with this! And in fact, it may be the real reason your girlfriend feels uncomfortable. To be 100% honest, your mom seems to treat you almost like a husband. A henpecked one, but a husband. Your girlfriend is uncomfortable about it but can't exactly put her finger on it. Let's be real here: so do you. You can't really pin this on your girlfriend. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl