Caught him on dating app

[lovesfool]

Oh and just to add, he's deleted his dating account again after I got the message.

I'm so confused at what he's doing.

[ExpatInItaly]

It doesn't matter what he's doing now, OP. 

He's not feeling the same way you are about this, which is all that matters. For all we know, he could be deleting his account so an entirely different woman doesn't catch him on it. 

He's not your guy. 

[Mystery4u]

19 minutes ago, lovesfool said:

Oh and just to add, he's deleted his dating account again after I got the message.

I'm so confused at what he's doing.

There's nothing really confusing. He is doing what he can to keep you in his orbit, until he meets someone he actually wants to be with. You are not that person.

His actions have said it all.

[kendahke]

47 minutes ago, lovesfool said:

Oh and just to add, he's deleted his dating account again after I got the message.

I'm so confused at what he's doing.

What exactly are you confused about? Be specific.

[kendahke]

56 minutes ago, lovesfool said:

Is this something that can ever be forgiven or even talked about? Is there any point talking it through, or even if we took a break until he matured and figured out what he wants?

No. He's managing you.

How long of a break are you willing to invest your youth in? 6 months? A year?  The longer he doesn't engage in something with you, the less likely he's going to want to invest in it.

He already knows what he wants: someone he can casually see, NSA, way more often where he doesn't have to drive 240 miles round trip 3-6 days/week to go see them.  Say his work hours are 8-4:30.  Traffic/weather permitting, he won't get to your place until 7pm and has to be up and on the road by 5:30am.  That kind of drive is a cute thought in the first 6 weeks of a relationship.  It gets less attractive as time goes on--it becomes a chore then and that takes the fun out of the whole enterprise. Eventually, he'll be too tired to make that ride and will want to catch up on his rest on the weekends, which will upset you. He already knows that.

He said what he said to keep the hook in your cheek: doesn't mean he intends to reel you in.

Why do you need this long distance relationship so badly?

[lovesfool]

23 minutes ago, kendahke said:

What exactly are you confused about? Be specific.

Just to get it clear in my own head, I decided to list the positive and negative things I know about him:

Positive things I'm 100% sure about:

• He likes spending time with me.
• He messages me a lot
• He's attracted to me
• He's willing to make the effort by travelling to see me
• This is the most committed to a relationship he's been (time wise so please don't comment on the word "committed"!).

Negative things I'm 100% sure about

• He was browsing a dating app
• He's regularly seeking validation from others (social media posts about his progress from fat to thin to muscly)
• He would talk to anyone that acknowledged him (again social media posts he would always respond to comments) Although this may not be a negative, I'm not sure.

Positive things I'm not sure about:

• He's willing to commit to making this work
• He's deleted his dating account because of our conversations
• He was upset about me being uncertain about the relationship and he posted a social media update to say likewise (positive in that it shows he cared)

Negative things I'm not sure about

• He installed the dating app, twice, but I don't know if he was intending to meet anyone or was looking for women to stroke his ego
• He brought up the distance being an issue despite it never being a problem before (deflection maybe?)
• He may be afraid of commitment (never been in a relationship, keeping his options open on dating apps, afraid to ask to become official).

When you look at the positive and negative together, they're conflicting. People say that actions speak louder than words. His actions are that he travels to see me (not something expected of a casual thing) and is very affectionate in intimate settings (lots of compliments, talking of meeting friends and family). On the other side, he was on a dating app suggesting that he is only after something casual. Both actions are contradictory.

[poppyfields]

lovesfool, he's a commitmentphobe, research it.  All his back and forth and push/pull, conflicting emotions and messages all point to that.

If you choose to go forward with him, be prepared for more of the same, worse because you will become more invested.

Be prepared for lots of pain, confusion and hurt and to feel like you're being driven crazy (like now but worse).

Think of how you feel now, all your confusion and multiply it by 100.

I'm serious.  Been through it myself, don't go there please. 

Read about it, research it, he sounds like a classic case. 

I'm sorry, you deserve way better than that. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by poppyfields

[kendahke]

1 minute ago, lovesfool said:

His actions are that he travels to see me (not something expected of a casual thing), is very affectionate in intimate settings, lots of compliments

How so? His truth is he wants something casual.  He's grooming you to be a FWB, so of course he's going to say what he needs to say to get you to fall in line.  In 4 months time, he has demonstrated that his will has averaged out to once a month, yet you are making an 8 course feast out of these bread crumbs.

Quote

(talking of meeting friends and family).

Exactly. Talk. Talk is cheap. He's just gassing you up.  What action has he put behind that?

Quote

On the other side, he was on a dating app suggesting that he is only after something casual.

That is his truth.

Notice how he's kept everything in the talking/"gassing you up" realm. None of this has transitioned to a declaration of intent, no action/behavior has been put in place of the talk. One visit/month.

Quote

He may be afraid of commitment

He's not afraid of commitment: he doesn't want one. Huge difference. 

He doesn't want to meet your expectations.

He wants a fbuddy he doesn't have to answer to.

Quote

He was upset about me being uncertain about the relationship and he posted a social media update to say likewise (positive in that it shows he cared)

Performative... he's putting on a show. Doesn't mean he means it.  Again, he's managing you.

 

[lovesfool]

4 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

lovesfool, he's a commitmentphobe, research it.  All his back and forth and push/pull, conflicting emotions and messages all point to that.

Maybe he is. But I would like to at least talk about it to get an understanding as to why he's behaving this way.

I know you'll be screaming "just listen to our advice!!!", but it's much easier said than done when you're in that position yourself.

I had been browsing some topics on this online and found a very interesting article with a suggestion as to how to approach it. What do you think:

Start off by asking him if we are exclusive, and if he says yes, follow up with something along these lines:

“OK, good, that’s what I thought.  Look… we live in a time where everyone can see everything that’s going on online with people.  Something in me made me curious and I looked at your Match profile and saw you’d logged on recently after we said we’d be exclusive.  And I while it did make me feel confused and a bit nervous, I figured it’s always possible it could have been something innocent – maybe you were canceling the service, changing your billing info, etc.  But then I saw you kept logging in…

“So look… I’m not here to ‘catch you’ or worry about what you may or may not be up to… if you want something other than an exclusive relationship… if that’s not what you want with me or in general, 100% in your mind, heart, body and soul… then that’s honestly fine.  I don’t think it makes you a bad person, I wouldn’t hate you, I wouldn’t be mad at you.  Life is complicated and the heart wants what the heart wants.  So…

“When I saw this, it just doesn’t line up with someone who wants to be 100% exclusive.  Again, I don’t think it makes you bad, but I have to look out for myself.  I’m not going to be in something where I have to worry or wonder that the person I’m exclusive with is as ‘into’ the relationship as I am.  If this is a misunderstanding, explain it to me.  If this was a mistake, tell me… I can forgive, but I won’t forget.

“Life is to short to spend our time, energy and youth on something that isn’t spectacular.  So if you do want an exclusive relationship with me, let’s go all the way.  Let’s have it be spectacular and go all in… or let’s not do it at all.  I’m fine with either and if you don’t want that, we can part ways as friends – sincerely, no hard feelings.  And if you do want it, let’s clear the slate and commit to that.”

It seems very grown up, reasoned and less reactionary. I know I'm putting myself at risk of getting stung in the future, but as they say "better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all".

[kendahke]

2 minutes ago, lovesfool said:

Start off by asking him if we are exclusive

But you already know you two aren't. The fact that he's creating new profiles on dating apps says he knows you two aren't.

The rest of that is overkill and unnecessary.  Let your silence deafen him.

[lovesfool]

Just now, kendahke said:

But you already know you two aren't. The fact that he's creating new profiles on dating apps says he knows you two aren't.

The rest of that is overkill and unnecessary.  Let your silence deafen him.

Yes, but that's the point. It's to illicit a response and get a discussion going so I know what his perspective is.

On the other hand if he admits we aren't exclusive then we talk about what it would take to become exclusive.

[smackie9]

You only met this guy 4 times, known him for 4 months....dear people lie and tell you BS to manipulate you into getting you hooked on them. He's inexperienced, never been in a relationship?...any evidence to back that up? His mom told you? or is this what he has told you? I think he's had plenty of experience. Like any con artist, keeping you confused is part of the game.

Edited July 20, 2020 by smackie9

[poppyfields]

You could try talking to him but I would not expect much, he probably doesn't know himself what he wants, or even what he's truly feeling, isn't it obvious?

I mean one day you're in, next day you're out, next day you're in,  lather, rinse, repeat. 

It f'ing crazy making.  Ask yourself why you want that for yourself? 

At the very least, research it before you move forward, there are tons of books and articles.  It's quite a complex fear. 

Commitmementphobia is about fear and anxiety. 

And if you choose to talk to him, be prepared for his anxiety to increase, and for him to run.  Can almost guaranty it.

But good luck whatever you decide. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by poppyfields

[Realitysux]

4 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

You could try talking to him but I would not expect much, he probably doesn't know himself what he wants, isn't it obvious?

I mean one day you're in, next day you're out, next day you're in,  lather, rinse, repeat. 

It f'ing crazy making.  Ask yourself why you want that for yourself? 

At the very least, research it before you move forward, there are tons of books and articles.  It's quite a complex fear. 

Commitmementphobia is about fear and anxiety. 

And if you choose to talk to him, be prepared for his anxiety to increase, and for him to run.  Can almost guaranty it.

But good luck whatever you decide. 

They won't run for the right person 

[lovesfool]

23 minutes ago, smackie9 said:

You only met this guy 4 times, known him for 4 months....dear people lie and tell you BS to manipulate you into getting you hooked on them. He's inexperienced, never been in a relationship?...any evidence to back that up? His mom told you? or is this what he has told you? I think he's had plenty of experience. Like any con artist, keeping you confused is part of the game.

Likewise, you don't know if he's had plenty of experience or is a con-artist as you claim. 

2 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

You could try talking to him but I would not expect much, he probably doesn't know himself what he wants, isn't it obvious?

I mean one day, you're in, next day you're out, next day in,  lather, rinse, repeat. 

It f'ing crazy making.  As yourself why you want that for yourself. At the very least, research it, there are tons of books and articles.  

Commitmementphobia is about fear and anxiety. 

And if you choose to talk to him, be prepared for his anxiety to increase, and for him to run.  Can almost guaranty it.

But good luck whatever you decide. 

I think you're 100% right. I did some brief googling and it is the fear of committing to anything, not just relationships. This brings back a lot of discussions we've had where I was trying to get him to make a decision and failed. He can't even decide on a movie to watch, and has admitted he is very indecisive. He is also a worrier.

Even our conversation yesterday had him flustered and anxious. Maybe talking to him again will cause his anxiety to increase, but at least it's out in the open then. I may lose him (or he loses me more like) either way so I've nothing to lose at this stage.

[kendahke]

5 minutes ago, lovesfool said:

you don't know if he's had plenty of experience or is a con-artist as you claim. 

The fact that he's on a dating app clearly stating without being flustered or flummoxed that he's looking for a casual relationship--and you are the one who came across it while you were assuming you were in a committed relationship with him after one date/month after 4 months... that rather outs his "I have no experience" lie.

That's a pretty declarative and decisive articulation of what he's looking for.

Edited July 20, 2020 by kendahke

[poppyfields]

19 minutes ago, lovesfool said:

I think you're 100% right. I did some brief googling and it is the fear of committing to anything, not just relationships. This brings back a lot of discussions we've had where I was trying to get him to make a decision and failed. He can't even decide on a movie to watch, and has admitted he is very indecisive. He is also a worrier.

Even our conversation yesterday had him flustered and anxious. Maybe talking to him again will cause his anxiety to increase, but at least it's out in the open then. I may lose him (or he loses me more like) either way so I've nothing to lose at this stage.

Bolded, you got it.  100%.  

There IS no "right" person for someone with this much anxiety and fear surrounding relationships.  

In fact the more perfect she is, the more anxious he becomes! 

I know it contradicts common sense, but nothing makes sense when a person has this much anxiety.

It is not about the other person at all, it's about them, and their anxieties, insecurities and fears.  And maintaining distance, emotional and physical. 

That is why many seek out long distance relationships.  

It's a ready-made excuse to end it when they can't hack it.  Just like he did.

After it ends, they change their minds. Just like he did.

It's also why they get on apps, then get off.  Go back on, get off.  

They don't know what they want or what they're doing, they are totally conflicted!  

My God he is such a classic case!  

 

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by poppyfields

[lovesfool]

1 minute ago, poppyfields said:

Bolded, you got it.  100%.  

There IS no "right" person for someone with this much anxiety and fear surrounding relationships.  

In fact the more perfect she is, the more anxious he becomes! 

I know it contradicts common sense, but nothing makes sense when a person has this much anxiety.

It is not about the other person at all, it's about them, and their anxieties, insecurities and fears.  And maintaining distance, emotional and physical. 

That is why many seek out long distance relationships.  

It's a ready-made excuse to end it when they can't hack it.  Just like he did.

After it ends, they change their minds. Just like he did.

My God he is such a classic case!  

You're definitely on to something here. Thanks for pointing me in that direction.

I was reading through some more articles on it and could relate to most things such as:

• Their past relationships are all short and/or very noncommittal.
• They are not willing to commit to dates or nights out weeks in advance.
• Most of their relationships are undefined.
• They are unpredictable.
• Doubting long-term compatibility
• They don’t seem invested in the relationship or you
• They don’t want to talk about the future of the relationship (i.e. running scared when I do talk about it)
• They are overly picky in their tastes, both in friends and romantically. (he admitted the latter)
• They often string along their partner, never quite being ready for anything serious.

Do you think there's any hope in changing someone like this? I wonder if he even realises.

[poppyfields]

LF, it would take therapy and often many years to overcome this type of fear and anxiety, so no.  Sorry. 

[dangerous]

OP, my take on this:

you are over-invested. No matter how many times we have suggested that this is  broken, you are adamant to stick with it. So do that. and either it will work (as you seem to to think) or it won't and you will be hurt.

You also said earlier that one option was to take a break and let him mature/ find himself etc. and then you could resume if he is in a better place. If you do this, again the two options will be: either you drift further apart (break up fully), or you will be pleasantly surprised in the future and make a go of it (although most of us would say that's highly unlikely).

All said and done, a relationship should not be such hard work, so early. So please don't make it such hard work, simply do one of the options as above?

[ExpatInItaly]

You are giving this much more thought than he is, I promise you that, LF. 

You're making him a priority while he's very clearly viewing you as an option. 

It shouldn't be this hard to get someone to want to be with you, OP. You're going after the wrong guy here. It's not as complicated as you're making it. 

[lovesfool]

7 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

You are giving this much more thought than he is, I promise you that, LF. 

You're making him a priority while he's very clearly viewing you as an option. 

It shouldn't be this hard to get someone to want to be with you, OP. You're going after the wrong guy here. It's not as complicated as you're making it. 

Oh I know! I over complicate things. It's a flaw of mine.

[Mystery4u]

13 minutes ago, lovesfool said:

Oh I know! I over complicate things. It's a flaw of mine.

You really need to look at it in the most simple way possible.

As a man, I can tell you if we are truly interested in a woman, after 4 months (!) we don't carry on looking on dating apps. If we are not really that interested in them, we know we don't want anything serious or long term, and they are just an option for now, we will go on dating apps to see what else is out there.

It really is that simple. Anything else is just excuses.

If you are happy being an option until someone better comes along, then sure keep chasing after him, until you get hurt and disappointed again.

[lovesfool]

5 minutes ago, Mystery4u said:

You really need to look at it in the most simple way possible.

As a man, I can tell you if we are truly interested in a woman, after 4 months (!) we don't carry on looking on dating apps. If we are not really that interested in them, we know we don't want anything serious or long term, and they are just an option for now, we will go on dating apps to see what else is out there.

It really is that simple. Anything else is just excuses.

If you are happy being an option until someone better comes along, then sure keep chasing after him, until you get hurt and disappointed again.

I do see where you're coming from and it's hard to argue with that.

I have to admit though in a past fledgling relationship I was messaging an ex while I was dating a guy. Nothing ever came of it and I stopped because I didn't like who I was becoming. 

I think we all have faults, most of which people don't see early on. It's just unfortunate (or fortunate) that I discovered one of his now.

[ExpatInItaly]

26 minutes ago, lovesfool said:

Oh I know! I over complicate things. It's a flaw of mine.

Let this be a turning point where you stop doing that. 

If he were into you the same way you are into him, you wouldn't be wondering if he's a commitment-phobe or if he's just inexperienced. There would be no need to search this hard for an explanation and reassure youself this much that maybe he's still into this. The words and behaviour of an interested man would generally be all the reassurance you needed to feel a lot more confident that you are on the same page. 

No matter how you try to view it, he's just not.