Family issues

[Happymostly]

10 hours ago, amaysngrace said:

Actually I read it again and it sounds like you’re only speaking about one person, the one with mental illness, the same one you say is toxic.  

Thats who I was speaking of too.  If she’s unable to function properly it’s not very nice to hold all the ways she can’t function against her but you probably know that already.

Yes there are two sisters, and they both have different issues going on.   One of them just moved out on her own, we worry about her because we don't think she'll be able to make it financially on her own, in her own place, she has a history of not knowing how to manage money, spending way more than she makes, buying things that she can't afford.    I am excited for her that she got herself out of that house and on her own, she is excited to have her own place.    We help her with whatever she needs.   We were with her twice last week helping her move things, put furniture back together, etc.    She is on disability so her income is fixed, she's not working, etc.     The house, of course, is also 1/3 hers, but she doesn't have any 'extra' money at all to help pay for anything.    She has lived in that house for 2 years and hasn't paid any of the taxes, insurance, electric bill, etc for that house.  She just doesn't have the money to help.   

The other sister is the reason the house is in the condition that it's in.    Have you watched hoarders?   It's like that.    She can't throw anything away, garbage, dirty cat litter, etc.    She doesn't do dishes, she collects things and just puts them wherever.   Cat throws up, she just leaves it there.   Cat poops or pees outside the box, she just leaves it there.   There are walking paths to get wherever she needs to go and the rest of the house is piled with stuff.      Also she owns another property that she moved out of because she hoarded that property also.   She owns it outright.   She still pays the bills to keep it afloat,  HOA fee, taxes, etc.    So she has a place to go, but according to my bf, it's uninhabitable.    It's a condo in a nice area.    I have never been inside.   So she has a place to live if she could spend time there cleaning it up enough so she could live in it.  But she doesn't.    For 10 or so years that property has sat there in that condition with her just paying the small HOA fee and insurance so it doesn't get taken away from her.    When my bf's parent's were alive they hired someone to try to help her at her place, to get it back in order so she could move back into it, but she wouldn't let them do anything.  She would direct them to organize the books or something but wouldn't let them clean anything, take out any garbage, etc.    She sees a therapist weekly and is on medication, but we aren't really sure if she's honest with her therapist about how bad it is at home.    

We do family things with them.  Celebrate birthdays, they come to my place every holiday, etc., etc.  If they need help at the house, furnace won't kick on (because they've let it run out of oil) pipe is leaking, my bf is always there to help.    If you met them you'd be like 'nice people' but there is stuff going on that I can't let into my house.     And my bf feels the same.    I'm not sure why some of you are coming down so hard on me for that but whatever.    I do appreciate the perspective.     I think you can have compassion for what someone is going through without letting it completely into your life.   

 

[d0nnivain]

it sounds like a partition sale is the way to go.  Everybody gets their 1/3.  Hoarder sister can use the money to clean her house then she can mess it all up again.  You can't get involved with that

[Happymostly]

1 hour ago, Crazelnut said:

My suggestions:

1. Write down the possible scenarios of what could happen with the house and what follows when that happens. County takes it. Insurance company refuses to insure it. Sister can't live by herself. BF has to pay all house taxes and insurance, etc. Walk all the way down the line with each scenario, exploring domino effects. If a happens, then b.  If b, then either c or d happens. If c, then e. If d, then, f. Take them to a reasonable conclusion.

2. Research or talk to a lawyer to find out the ramifications of what each scenario means to your BF and his financial & legal situation. Credit rating, general financial health, etc. 

3. How does that affect YOUR life? Does it impact your proposed joint home ownership? Can you even get homeowners insurance? Is he on the hook for back taxes? (You'd better have an ironclad legal agreement on the home, finances, etc. and what happens to the home if you split up, anyway!) Where are your boundaries in this? To what extent are you willing to suck it up?

You don't have to suck it all up, btw.  The purpose of the exercise is to help you figure out exactly what you're able to accept and what you cannot. Once you figure that out, communicate it clearly to him and then let him decide what to do. 

Personally, I'd never be able to buy a home with a man who is so cavalier about dealing with taxes and insurance, etc. I don't think it bodes well.

Thank you!!     

And the last line, he has his own personal affairs in order.    He pays his bills, he's not so cavalier about these things, it's just that at some point, you're throwing your money away to keep throwing money at a problem.   In his situation, I would probably do the same.  Actually, I would have quitclaimed my name off of it by now and washed my hands of the financial responsibility, of the liability.   But he can't seem to do that quite yet.   

[Happymostly]

Just now, d0nnivain said:

it sounds like a partition sale is the way to go.  Everybody gets their 1/3.  Hoarder sister can use the money to clean her house then she can mess it all up again.  You can't get involved with that

Absolutely it is the way to go.   Both sisters could really use the money (well, so could he of course).     But when one person refuses to move, how do you force them out of a property their name is on?    I think it was you who mentioned that legally there is a way, but it could be lengthy and costly.   He will probably look into that, so thank you.     

I just feel horrible because I know his parents were good people, they left this house to their kids to help them, most parents would love to have something to leave their children when they pass.    Even though my bf is the youngest (sisters are late 50's), they left him as executor and I believe it was because they knew he was the most level headed financially.    However even though he's the executor of the estate, this house isn't considered part of the estate because it was put in the kid's names long before they passed, to try to protect that asset for the kids.   So I think this makes him really feel responsible for the house and for them.    But he doesn't have the means to help them by supporting them.      A couple years ago he found an old will in his parent's house that detailed the money that the girls had borrowed from them through the years, because they wanted to equalize that money upon their death, to be sure bf received money since they hadn't given him money through the years.    The document showed they had given approx $110,000 to the sisters through the years to help them.     The house would be worth approx $300,000 in this market in good condition.    They would be lucky right now to sell it to a flipper for $100,000.    And this is all due to the one sister.    He never mentions the money when he is upset about this, it's just the stress that it's causing and the fact that he looks down the line and can't see how he is going to get himself out of it.    It's easy to have a goal and say I'm going to do abc to get me to xyz, but when your goals rely on someone else doing something else (move out of the property, clear out the mess), you can't see how you're going to get there.   

I'm definitely frustrated.  And this is why I asked this board for help, mostly just on how emotionally I can let this go and not let it bother me so much.   I've received some good advice so for that I'm grateful.   

[Happymostly]

56 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

I can't believe the tax collector let this go on for 3 years.  In most states they have the right to start a tax sale after 3 quarters of non-payment.  

Do your BF a favor & check that out.  It's a simple Google search on the tax collector's website.  Just make sure you use the legitimate free public one  the .gov,  not many of the fakes that pop up when you request the search on a search engine.  

Paying $5,000 per year in taxes is a lot but it seems cheaper then paying their rent or worse having them live with you.   

Maybe, your BF can get the sisters to agree to a clean out in exchange for his help with the taxes.  At the end of their lives my parents developed hoarder tendencies because they had physical difficulty cleaning &  would buy stuff on sale like toilet paper & forget they did, then buy more  I got 1 year of coffee, 7 years of paper towels, 9 years of toilet paper, & 10 years of laundry detergent after they died. 🙄 About 4 years before they died, I hired a professional clean out service that transformed the house.  I thought I was going to have to replace the appliances & carpets but they got everything back to sparkling.  It was amazing.  Best $2,500 I ever spent & it did wonders for my parents mental (& physical) health living in a clean environment again.   

Try talking to your BF about that.  May give the sisters a new lease on life & preserve the inheritance. 

If he keeps good records when it comes time to sell the house your BF may be able to re-coup 2/3 of the tax payments from the sisters' share of the proceeds.   

I tried googling that yesterday, the answers seem all over the place as far as how long it will be before they would start a tax sale.  Then it seems after the tax sale, you have a redemption period to pay the taxes and fees and then claim the house back, it sounds like there is no eviction until after the redemption period.    I did just a generic google search, I'll have to search more specifically for the town the house is in.   

We are willing to help with whatever she needs with the cleaning out, she just doesn't want to do it, hear about it, etc.    The other night when we were there, my bf asked her one simple question and she just burst into tears and said she didn't want to talk about it.   So that's where we are.   

It's a good idea for him to say he'll pay the back taxes if they all agree to help get the house in shape for a sale, or even to help her clean the condo so she can move back into it as a first step.    I just don't think she's able to do it, mentally, and my bf hasn't gotten angry about it yet to the point where he says he's coming over on Saturday with a dumpster to get started.    I know that's not the answer but I just don't know how to help someone who doesn't want the help.     And I guess I worry that will damage her.   Like if she's keeping the stuff for a reason (mentally I mean, not because she has plans for the garbage) and you just come and throw it out, I just don't know what that will do.  I'm not a professional.   I know on hoarders they have loads of professionals there to help people process what is going on.    Maybe her therapist will take a field trip.     Oy 

[Ruby Slippers]

The problem with hoarders is that usually, even if you clean out all the stuff, they'll just let new stuff build up. The stuff is just a physical manifestation of the mental/emotional disorder. As she says, the sister filled one house with stuff, then left it all there and moved to another house and filled it with stuff. From what I've read, hoarders are irrationally attached to all this stuff, find some kind of comfort and safety in having it there. So unless a good counselor can get to the root of the mental illness and improve that, the accumulation of stuff comes with the deal.

Probably the best that can be done is to manage the situation, make a clear plan for her long-term care if her abilities to care for herself slip further, and establish firm boundaries.

@Happymostly, I think the best way to deal with it emotionally is to make a solid plan with your boyfriend, and also have your own backup plan in case the situation gets out of control. For example, if he eventually breaks down and tries to move her in, have a legal plan on paper for how you can get out of the mortgage with him if it comes to that. Personally, I wouldn't buy a house with a man who had this situation hanging over him, unless he had a solid plan for the worst case scenario including all his finances in order to carry out that plan in the future. The discussion can't just be "she's not living with us." It has to also include what will happen if her situation deteriorates and she's not able to take care of herself. 

In this case, it seems like a good thing that you're not married, as if you were married, your finances would legally become more entangled with his and you'd be more at risk in case of any bad financial decisions on his part. 

 

[Crazelnut]

I want to add one more thing. The problem isn't the sisters. The problem is your BF. He isn't able to disentangle himself from this situation. Can you handle that? I don't think I could. This is what your life with this man is going to be like until those sisters are dead & gone. His boundaries are way further out than yours. That's why I suggested the exercise of walking through all possibilities.

I wouldn't buy a house with a man with this much family financial.and emotional baggage.

[d0nnivain]

10 hours ago, Crazelnut said:

The problem is your BF. He isn't able to disentangle himself from this situation. Can you handle that?

You want him to disentangle himself from a 1/3 share of a house?  I don't know many people who can afford to walk away from that much money. 

Plus it's hard when they are family.  Abandoning a sister with mental health issues is cruel don't you think?  

[Happymostly]

On 7/18/2020 at 12:25 PM, Ruby Slippers said:

The problem with hoarders is that usually, even if you clean out all the stuff, they'll just let new stuff build up. The stuff is just a physical manifestation of the mental/emotional disorder. As she says, the sister filled one house with stuff, then left it all there and moved to another house and filled it with stuff. From what I've read, hoarders are irrationally attached to all this stuff, find some kind of comfort and safety in having it there. So unless a good counselor can get to the root of the mental illness and improve that, the accumulation of stuff comes with the deal.

Probably the best that can be done is to manage the situation, make a clear plan for her long-term care if her abilities to care for herself slip further, and establish firm boundaries.

@Happymostly, I think the best way to deal with it emotionally is to make a solid plan with your boyfriend, and also have your own backup plan in case the situation gets out of control. For example, if he eventually breaks down and tries to move her in, have a legal plan on paper for how you can get out of the mortgage with him if it comes to that. Personally, I wouldn't buy a house with a man who had this situation hanging over him, unless he had a solid plan for the worst case scenario including all his finances in order to carry out that plan in the future. The discussion can't just be "she's not living with us." It has to also include what will happen if her situation deteriorates and she's not able to take care of herself. 

In this case, it seems like a good thing that you're not married, as if you were married, your finances would legally become more entangled with his and you'd be more at risk in case of any bad financial decisions on his part. 

 

Thank you for your input.   I think at the very least, a solid plan in writing is a good idea before we move in together, when things are a bit more level than they would be if she's in crisis mode, needs a place to live, etc.   It's just a tough situation all around.  Thank you again  

[Happymostly]

On 7/18/2020 at 9:44 PM, Crazelnut said:

I want to add one more thing. The problem isn't the sisters. The problem is your BF. He isn't able to disentangle himself from this situation. Can you handle that? I don't think I could. This is what your life with this man is going to be like until those sisters are dead & gone. His boundaries are way further out than yours. That's why I suggested the exercise of walking through all possibilities.

I wouldn't buy a house with a man with this much family financial.and emotional baggage.

Well in a way, of course, you're not wrong.   She started the problem, let's say, but the real issue is how he's handling his end of things.   I think some stronger people would have done something years ago and not let it get to this point.   Personally I think it's just hard for him partly because that is his personality, he hates, conflict, etc.   But then also because of his relationship with his parents, I think he feels partially responsible for his sisters because they were always responsible for them, enabling them, etc.      At this point in their lives, the hoarder sister is able (physically, maybe not mentally) to get herself a better job and to clean out her condo so that the house can be vacant and then sold.    Some house flippers/investors will even purchase the house in as is condition and clean it out themselves.  I've seen that happen.      But again, how do you force someone to do something they need to do but refuse to do?    Unless he gets an attorney involved, it's not as easy as it sounds.    The situation is simple actually.    She needs to move back into her condo so the house can be sold.  But if she won't do that, then what do you do?

I understand (kind of) why you would say that you wouldn't buy a house with a man with this much baggage.   But let's flip it around a bit.   Last year I had cancer.   He stuck by me, offered to help me pay my medical bills if I needed him to (luckily I didn't need him to), etc.    I was able to still work through my treatments, I just had a scan a bit ago and it seems the cancer is gone and my dr will keep his eye on it.    So let's say he comes to me and tells me that he's worried about buying a house with me.   What if the cancer comes back and I'm unwilling to work the next time around.  What if I lose my insurance, my job, etc., etc.    What if medical bills are now liens on our house?  What if he decides I'm too much of a risk to buy a house with?    Maybe comparing apples to oranges here, but I'm sure you get my meaning.    Relationships at this level are a partnership.   I would expect that he would stick by me if I get sick again and can't support myself.  He's just such a great guy and he's very much 'a team' with me.       So how do I say to him 'sorry, I can't buy a house with you because this might come back to bite you in the ass' but expect that he would be here for me if something came up on my end?

[Crazelnut]

The cancer analogy doesn't work, IMO. You've demonstrated that your response to a bad situation is mature and reasonable. He, on the other hand, has demonstrated that his response to a bad situation is to avoid conflict and let it drag on and get worse.  

You seem to bristle at the idea that this is a real problem with HIM. So if you stay with him and buy a house with him, you do so with the knowledge that this situation will get worse. You establish your boundary that neither can live with you, but you should expect to see his money and attention focused on this problem.( This house will cost him a small fortune when all is said and done.) And you basically have to suck it up. You have no other options.

[Ruby Slippers]

6 hours ago, Happymostly said:

So how do I say to him 'sorry, I can't buy a house with you because this might come back to bite you in the ass' but expect that he would be here for me if something came up on my end?

We don't know about your relative financial situations. If you're more financially solid than he is, for example, it's safer for him to take the risk.

In any case, it seems that his sister poses a great financial risk than your mother and children. 

What's the worst case scenario with your mother and kids? They become incapacitated in some way and need to live with you. You're pretty sure your boyfriend would be OK with this and it could happen relatively drama-free without a lot of additional expense.

What's the worst case scenario with his sister? She becomes incapacitated, you're not OK with her living with you, so your boyfriend has to pay for her expenses to live elsewhere 100%. Right?

If all this is accurate, you're bearing a greater burden of risk. I'd do the calculations for the worst-case scenario and make sure he's on-track to prepare for that, and consider how much you'd be willing to contribute to that, if anything, if it comes to that. It might be worth it for cohabitation and the financial savings of living in one house instead of two. 

[Happymostly]

22 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

We don't know about your relative financial situations. If you're more financially solid than he is, for example, it's safer for him to take the risk.

In any case, it seems that his sister poses a great financial risk than your mother and children. 

What's the worst case scenario with your mother and kids? They become incapacitated in some way and need to live with you. You're pretty sure your boyfriend would be OK with this and it could happen relatively drama-free without a lot of additional expense.

What's the worst case scenario with his sister? She becomes incapacitated, you're not OK with her living with you, so your boyfriend has to pay for her expenses to live elsewhere 100%. Right?

If all this is accurate, you're bearing a greater burden of risk. I'd do the calculations for the worst-case scenario and make sure he's on-track to prepare for that, and consider how much you'd be willing to contribute to that, if anything, if it comes to that. It might be worth it for cohabitation and the financial savings of living in one house instead of two. 

Financially we are both fairly sound, good jobs and equity in our respective homes.    I don't feel like purchasing a house with him is more of a risk than purchasing a house with anyone else.  It's always a risk.   I am 50 ish and I have been through divorce and I'm not afraid to go down that road again if I had to.   I will protect myself as best as I can, as best as anyone can when they go into any sort of financial partnership with someone else.   

He is not his sister's guardian.   Yes she has issues but she is not disabled, unable to work, etc. and even if she was, he's not obligated to pay for her living expenses.   She has money in a 401K, she's working full time right now, she owns another property outright (a condo), there is equity in the house that she is living in, if she would move out of it so it could be sold, she will get 1/3 of the profits giving her even more money to live on.      The hoarding is a huge issue which stems from a mental illness, I'm not sure what her diagnosis is but I know she sees a therapist and is on medication for whatever it is.   But it's not changing/helping the situation.    I suspect maybe she's not being honest with her therapist how bad the house is.    This is something that I don't want in my house, but to me that doesn't mean that he will have to take care of her for the rest of her life.  She is working now, she has a degree and could go back to work in that field and make more money.     But IMO, it's not about the money.      She could win the lottery today but she is not moving out of that house tomorrow, or probably ever, until someone forces her to.  This is the issue.   It's not about money or my bf having to support her.   It's about her being unable to act, unable to clean  the house out for sale, unable to clean her condo out so she could live there again.     Just like my cat is unable to open a can of cat food, she's unable to clean the stuff around her and talking to her about it doesn't change that situation.     So if she won't do it, and my bf can't force her to do it, there she sits inside a house that can't be sold and can't be rented and will eventually fall apart around her.   

@Crazelnut commented that I'm not willing to see part of his issue with this and I am agreeing that he should handle this differently.  I 100% agree that he should have done something years ago, he should do something today.   Hire an attorney, quitclaim his name off of the house, something.    I'm not saying he's not partially at fault for some of his stress over the situation.     What I am saying is that I'm not willing to leave him over it or not move in with him because of it.  He's a great guy, great partner.     This situation was not caused by him.  He has his own house in order, his finances are in order, etc.    This is a situation that was enabled by their parents and now the parents are gone and his 2 sisters are so used to their parents cleaning up their messes that they are floundering.  But it does not make him financially obligated to care for them.   

What I came here looking for was how to handle the stress of this situation going on around me and not have it bother me so much.  It makes me crazy because it's hard to watch.  The solution is so simple to me and to you.     Sell the house, split the profits and go our happy ways.   I would handle it differently if it were me.   But it's not me and he has to handle it his own way.   

[Ruby Slippers]

7 minutes ago, Happymostly said:

What I came here looking for was how to handle the stress of this situation going on around me and not have it bother me so much.  It makes me crazy because it's hard to watch.  The solution is so simple to me and to you.     Sell the house, split the profits and go our happy ways.   I would handle it differently if it were me.   But it's not me and he has to handle it his own way.   

OK, well, sounds like his sister is unlikely to become a financial burden, so that's good and a relief.

I've never been in this kind of situation, but I've certainly been in situations where boyfriends were handling financial and family matters very differently than I would.

I suppose you just have to try to "keep it on your side of the street." Those are his issues to deal with, and as long as you trust that he won't take steps that compromise your shared investment in the new house, you don't need to worry. If you don't want to hear about the ongoing cycle he goes through with her, there are polite ways to discourage him from ongoing venting to you about it, so you don't have to listen to the same story over and over and pay any mind to the drama and stress of it.

This is what I did with my ex-bf, when on one hand he'd complain about how his grown son in college was too lazy to get a job, and on the other he'd continue paying for many luxury items for him, like gym membership, streaming services, cologne, etc. I expressed plainly that the solution was simple: cut off the gravy train and his son will have to get a job if he wants money to spend on luxuries. Once I said that, he finally stopped venting and complaining about the situation. Nothing changed, except I didn't have to keep hearing the same old story over and over.

[Happymostly]

15 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

I suppose you just have to try to "keep it on your side of the street." Those are his issues to deal with, and as long as you trust that he won't take steps that compromise your shared investment in the new house, you don't need to worry. If you don't want to hear about the ongoing cycle he goes through with her, there are polite ways to discourage him from ongoing venting to you about it, so you don't have to listen to the same story over and over and pay any mind to the drama and stress of it.

This is what I did with my ex-bf, when on one hand he'd complain about how his grown son in college was too lazy to get a job, and on the other he'd continue paying for many luxury items for him, like gym membership, streaming services, cologne, etc. I expressed plainly that the solution was simple: cut off the gravy train and his son will have to get a job if he wants money to spend on luxuries. Once I said that, he finally stopped venting and complaining about the situation. Nothing changed, except I didn't have to keep hearing the same old story over and over.

This is exactly where I need to get to.    A place of 'not my circus, not my monkeys'.  That is what I'm struggling with.   This helps, thanks!