How do I Form Opposite-Gender Friendships without Shared Hobbies?

[Wave Rider]

On 7/20/2020 at 4:18 AM, clia said:

So, it sounds like you are mainly looking to date a woman who is physically active and wants to go on physically active dates and bond over physical activity, then?  Have you tried joining Meetup (or other local) groups directed to adventure/hiking/sport, etc.?  There are a lot of physically active women out there -- although, admittedly I'm not sure they all want every single date to have to be physically active.  (I would consider things like wine/beer tasting, farmer's markets, art festivals, museums, boat rides, visiting a new town, shopping, dining out, concerts, theater, etc. to be "activities," but it doesn't sound like those are physically active enough for you)  I honestly don't really understand bonding over physical activity -- perhaps, e.g., bonding over the shared experience of hiking on a beautiful trail or just spending an afternoon in each other's company at the tennis club -- but not really bonding over the physical activity itself.  It almost sounds like the person you are with doesn't matter so much, as long as you get to do the activity you want to do?. 

Regardless, it's unlikely you will meet anyone (male or female) who shares ALL of your interests.  Most people don't consider this to be a "problem" in their relationship, as you described your parents.  I actually think it's healthy for partners to have differing interests, and to do their own thing.  

So if I get married and she and I don't share all of our interests in common, how I am supposed to post on facebook on our wedding day, "Today I married my best friend. #feelingblessed" ?  There is a couple who live next door to me, and they do everything together.  I see them working out together and eating together.  When they go to the store, they go together.  When they sit on the front porch, they sit together. When they go jogging, they time each other with their watches.  I don't think I've ever seen them do anything separately.  They're always together.  Always.  Those are the people who can clearly say "Today I married my best friend.  #feelingblessed."  Why can't I find that kind of relationship?  If that guy found a woman to be his workout buddy, why can't I find a woman to be my flying buddy and surfing buddy?  

And I definitely feel bonded with someone after a shared experience.  It does matter who the person is, but I think what I'm getting at here is an openness to experience and a creativity about what we do.  Some people are creatures of routine; they have their world that is familiar, predictable, and controllable, and they don't like to go outside that.  That style of living is boring to me.   

 

On 7/19/2020 at 3:35 PM, Ruby Slippers said:

I've gotten the impression the men I've been involved with have enjoyed my presence in their life for emotional and soul reasons. That is, with me, they feel a lot more comfortable talking about their emotions than they do with guy friends, and they start to explore aspects of their soul/spirit/psyche that they hadn't before. My last boyfriend talked to me often about family matters (in his case, his kids). He never seemed to understand what was going on with them emotionally, while to me it was usually obvious.

They also enjoy having me as an activity partner - working out, playing tennis, hiking mountains, hanging out at the beach, going out to restaurants and cafes, checking out arts exhibits, movies, farmer's markets, and so on.

Also, I'm brainy and attract men who are brainy, so we enjoy deep philosophical conversations about everything under the sun for hours. These have been some of the best times I've had with men.

Also, it is possible to find women who are more left-brained in their thinking - women in science, tech, and so on.

The best answer I have right now about why I'd want a woman in my life is that women have a certain female energy about them that I like.  This is biggest draw for me, I think. 

Conversation is a funny thing because I have noticed that a person's skill as a good conversationalist is directly proportional to how much that persons wants to talk to me.  If a person doesn't want to talk to me, they're a terrible conversationalist.  If they do want to talk to me, suddenly they have a whole bunch of brilliant things to say.  

In the times when I've gotten to know women more in conversation, there seems to be a decision point when a certain level of emotional intimacy is reached, and both people decide if the friendship will deepen with more intimacy or if one person decides to bail out of the friendship.  This is my best guess with a female friend of mine who is both a physicist and a pilot, and who I have explicitly told that I only intend to be just friends with her.  We've been chatting a lot and I feel like we've developed emotional intimacy to the point where she decided that the friendship is getting too close and she wants to bail out before we get any closer.  This is annoying, but I've had it happen before.  We start to connect, and right after that connection is the point when they suddenly disappear.   

On 7/18/2020 at 10:11 PM, basil67 said:

If most of the attention goes to parenting, the marriage will flounder.  Raising a family is a juggling act of making sure each member of the family gets as many needs as possible met and this includes the parents and their relationship with each other.   

Yeah, they told me this in my Mormon upbringing.  Gotta nurture the marriage.  

[basil67]

40 minutes ago, Wave Rider said:

Why can't I find that kind of relationship?  If that guy found a woman to be his workout buddy, why can't I find a woman to be my flying buddy and surfing buddy?  

Because she also found his 'sit and talk about weird stuff' buddy.  And his 'laugh at weird jokes' buddy.  And his 'lets watch our favourite TV show together' buddy.  His relationship with her would be more complex and emotionally connected than what you're seeking.

40 minutes ago, Wave Rider said:

Conversation is a funny thing because I have noticed that a person's skill as a good conversationalist is directly proportional to how much that persons wants to talk to me.  If a person doesn't want to talk to me, they're a terrible conversationalist.  If they do want to talk to me, suddenly they have a whole bunch of brilliant things to say.  

A good conversationalist is no different to anybody else who wants to escape from someone they think is a bore.   I can also hold a good conversation, but there are certain people who I'd rather make and excuse to use the bathroom than talk to.

40 minutes ago, Wave Rider said:

In the times when I've gotten to know women more in conversation, there seems to be a decision point when a certain level of emotional intimacy is reached, and both people decide if the friendship will deepen with more intimacy or if one person decides to bail out of the friendship.  This is my best guess with a female friend of mine who is both a physicist and a pilot, and who I have explicitly told that I only intend to be just friends with her.  We've been chatting a lot and I feel like we've developed emotional intimacy to the point where she decided that the friendship is getting too close and she wants to bail out before we get any closer.  This is annoying, but I've had it happen before.  We start to connect, and right after that connection is the point when they suddenly disappear.   

OK, so apparently you CAN connect with particular women...and more than once.   Why did you make it clear to these women that this would only be friendship?    And did they tell you that they were leaving because it was getting too close, or is this an assumption on your part?

[Wave Rider]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

Because she also found his 'sit and talk about weird stuff' buddy.  And his 'laugh at weird jokes' buddy.  And his 'lets watch our favourite TV show together' buddy.  His relationship with her would be more complex and emotionally connected than what you're seeking.

A good conversationalist is no different to anybody else who wants to escape from someone they think is a bore.   I can also hold a good conversation, but there are certain people who I'd rather make and excuse to use the bathroom than talk to.

OK, so apparently you CAN connect with particular women...and more than once.   Why did you make it clear to these women that this would only be friendship?    And did they tell you that they were leaving because it was getting too close, or is this an assumption on your part?

So OK, on the sit and talk about weird stuff buddy.  That's easier to find than a woman who shares my hobbies. But a woman who doesn't share my can't be my best friend.  She might be able to be a friend, that's fair.  But remember the gold standard of modern marriage: "Today I married my best friend. #feelingblessed" .  If she doesn't know anything about physics or airplanes or surfing, she may be able to be a friend, but how is she going to become my best friend?  She must be my best friend, not just a good friend, according to modern dating advice.   

Yeah, I can connect with particular women.  And I have.  I did it a few times during my post-Mormon faith crisis, where I became friends with a few women who were also in the process of leaving Mormonism.  But I found that after we had worked through the biggest parts of our faith crisis, we didn't have much in common and we drifted apart.  This is what usually happens if I have friendships with women.  Like I said, the lack of common hobbies or interests causes us to drift apart, because we don't have much reason to hang out together, unless I'm thinking of this the wrong way.  

The particular woman I was talking about who is in my physics department and is also an airplane pilot, that's the friendship that's frustrating me now.  I told her my intention was only friendship, and she said hers was the same.   I thought this was a great opportunity for friendship because we share so many common hobbies and interests and she doesn't want to ever get married, so it seemed like the perfect chance to make a platonic female friend.  We've had some great conversations - some about airplanes and physics, but most not.  A lot of our conversations were more about our past relationships.  We shared a lot of feelings and I felt like we really connected.  But I feel her drifting away lately.  I've tried to do all the stuff I've been told - be vulnerable, be authentic, share feelings, etc.  But I think she's drifting away, and I can't really say why.  The intimacy is just a guess.  Maybe she doesn't think the friendship is a good fit.  Maybe I'm asking her to confront things about herself that she doesn't want to confront.  Maybe she's bored with me.  I thought we were getting along really well, so I don't know, maybe she likes me but doesn't want to get involved with anyone right now, so she's withdrawing to avoid getting attached.  Or maybe she thinks I'm not popular enough.  Or maybe she thinks I'm too....I dunno, something.  Or maybe she's really flaky and bad at close friendships.  Or maybe she just doesn't care.  It's really hard to say.   

Edited July 22, 2020 by Wave Rider

[Wave Rider]

To continue from my last post.....

I had this fantasy in my mind that she and I could go flying together and talk intimately as friends without me or her feeling pressured with anything romantic.  I wanted to hear her stories and I wanted to hear about her experiences.  We both applied to be astronauts this last round, so I wanted to hear her story of how she came to want that.  I thought the friendship would be a fun inside look into the mysteries of women from a woman who had nothing investing in maintaining appearances or in putting her best foot forward for me.  I though we could drop all pretense and be seen just as we are, and I wanted that.  So I'm very disappointed to feel her slipping away.  

[basil67]

6 minutes ago, Wave Rider said:

We've had some great conversations - some about airplanes and physics, but most not.  A lot of our conversations were more about our past relationships.  We shared a lot of feelings and I felt like we really connected.  But I kinda feel her drifting away lately.  I've tried to do all the stuff I've been told by relationship advice - be vulnerable, be authentic, share feelings, etc. 

Enough with the #feelingblessed.  I'm gonna barf on my keyboard.

Now, what you describe here is what being best friends with a partner is like.  OK, not everyone talks about exes, but it's the sharing of feelings and connection outside of hobbies which drives the whole thing.    

6 minutes ago, Wave Rider said:

But I think she's drifting away, and I can't really say why.  The intimacy is just a guess.  Maybe she doesn't think the friendship is a good fit.  Maybe I'm asking her to confront things about herself that she doesn't want to confront.  Maybe she's bored with me.  I thought we were getting along really well, so I don't know, maybe she likes me but doesn't want to get involved with anyone right now, so she's withdrawing to avoid getting attached.  Or maybe she thinks I'm not popular enough.  Or maybe she thinks I'm too....I dunno, something.  Or maybe she's really flaky and bad at close friendships.  Or maybe she just doesn't care.  It's really hard to say.   

Have you talked with her about it?   Something like "I feel like we've been a bit distant lately and I miss your company" might be a good start.    

[basil67]

3 minutes ago, Wave Rider said:

To continue from my last post.....

I had this fantasy in my mind that she and I could go flying together and talk intimately as friends without me or her feeling pressured with anything romantic.  I wanted to hear her stories and I wanted to hear about her experiences.  We both applied to be astronauts this last round, so I wanted to hear her story of how she came to want that.  I thought the friendship would be a fun inside look into the mysteries of women from a woman who had nothing investing in maintaining appearances or in putting her best foot forward for me.  I though we could drop all pretense and be seen just as we are, and I wanted that.  So I'm very disappointed to feel her slipping away.  

You know you're summing up a romantic relationship here - the sharing and caring and getting comfortable with each other.  Why is she out of the question for romance?  

Edited July 22, 2020 by basil67

[Wave Rider]

6 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Enough with the #feelingblessed.  I'm gonna barf on my keyboard.

Now, what you describe here is what being best friends with a partner is like.  OK, not everyone talks about exes, but it's the sharing of feelings and connection outside of hobbies which drives the whole thing.    

Have you talked with her about it?   Something like "I feel like we've been a bit distant lately and I miss your company" might be a good start.    

Oh I'd like to do that for sure.  But she's withdrawing in same way that I often find that friendships/relationships end for me, which is that she withdraws step by step until she disappears.  So I take it as a chance to try to break old patterns.  With covid, my recent contact with her has been over facebook chat.  She was good about responding to my messages a few months ago, but then she started taking a month to respond to me, and now she hasn't even looked at the message I sent her three weeks ago, and I know for sure she's been on facebook because she changed her profile picture.  I don't have her phone number, so I can't really do much if she doesn't even read my message.  In her last message she told me she'd get back to me when her (visiting) parents left her house, but that was three weeks ago.  If she does message me back I'll bring it up this time.  

4 minutes ago, basil67 said:

You know you're summing up a romantic relationship here.    Why is she out of the question for romance?  

Why can't a friendship look like this?  I thought that's what friendship was about - accepting people as they are, emotional intimacy, shared activities, dropping pretense and having the freedom to be yourself in someone's presence.  

In truth, I think she's pretty hot.  But she doesn't want marriage, and I clarified my intentions upfront with her by telling her that I thought she was attractive but my intention was for platonic friendship, and she said hers was the same.  I told her about some feelings about a former girlfriend that I still had, and I hoped that would resolve any concerns she might have that I wanted more than friendship with her.  The times we've talked in person, her body language told me the she felt connected to me and was responding to me, and my buddy who was standing next to us one time told me that she was giving me the googly eyes when I showed her a picture of me flying on a zero-gravity airplane, which is something she would absolutely love to do.  I mean, there might be some romantic chemistry between us, but I've tried to keep things focused on friendship.  

[basil67]

Perhaps she's got a boyfriend?  It could explain her absence.    Thing is, my female/female friendships look like this -, but because I have a partner, it would be vastly inappropriate for me to have a male best friend who I connect with like you describe.   And here in lies the problem with a deep male/female friendship - it's all well and good until someone gets a partner.  Thing is, most partners aren't going to put up with their loved one having someone else of the opposite sex as a BFF.  

If you can find someone like her who you want a relationship with, THEN you'll be getting somewhere.    And for the record, the way you describe your friendship with her is how I describe mine with my husband.  Minus the shared interests (he likes sport/I like craft and history).   As you've discovered with this woman, there's so much more than shared interests to talk about.

Edited July 22, 2020 by basil67

[clia]

5 hours ago, Wave Rider said:

So OK, on the sit and talk about weird stuff buddy.  That's easier to find than a woman who shares my hobbies. But a woman who doesn't share my can't be my best friend.  She might be able to be a friend, that's fair.  But remember the gold standard of modern marriage: "Today I married my best friend. #feelingblessed" .  If she doesn't know anything about physics or airplanes or surfing, she may be able to be a friend, but how is she going to become my best friend?  She must be my best friend, not just a good friend, according to modern dating advice.   

I don't necessarily agree that your spouse has to be your "best friend," but even assuming that's true, I've never in my life met a person that shares ALL of my interests.  Not even my "best friends" share ALL of my interests.  Where are you getting this idea that a "best friend" has to share ALL of the same interests?  My husband and I share a lot of the same interests and are very compatible, but he likes to build stuff out in the garage, which doesn't interest me at all.  So some days, he does that and I read books or do something else that I like to do that he doesn't like as much, and then later on we get together and do something together that we both like.  Would that be an unacceptable situation for you? 

[BaileyB]

Quote

I don't necessarily agree that your spouse has to be your "best friend," but even assuming that's true, I've never in my life met a person that shares ALL of my interests.  Not even my "best friends" share ALL of my interests.  Where are you getting this idea that a "best friend" has to share ALL of the same interests?  My husband and I share a lot of the same interests and are very compatible

I totally agree with this. In part, this is why you are compatible...

 

Quote

Because she also found his 'sit and talk about weird stuff' buddy.  And his 'laugh at weird jokes' buddy.  And his 'lets watch our favourite TV show together' buddy.  His relationship with her would be more complex and emotionally connected than what you're seeking.

My partner and I don’t share every interest, but we enjoy each other’s company... we enjoy going for long drives together, just sitting in silence together and watching the world go by... We enjoy watching television together in bed, we enjoy playing cards together to pass the time during quarantine... We find comfort in each other’s company. 

No one person will ever meet ALL of your needs. I think the way to happiness is to develop a variety of relationships, appreciating each person for the unique things they bring to your life. And then, there is that famous quote from the Beatles - “the love you take, is equal to the love you make...”

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

You do not form relationships with people that do not share our hobbies... Like a hobby or an activity or something, it can challenge you, it can make you look at yourself differently... When there is no hobby or activity, the ego often finds a way in and destroys everything.

[Wave Rider]

6 hours ago, clia said:

I don't necessarily agree that your spouse has to be your "best friend," but even assuming that's true, I've never in my life met a person that shares ALL of my interests.  Not even my "best friends" share ALL of my interests.  Where are you getting this idea that a "best friend" has to share ALL of the same interests?  My husband and I share a lot of the same interests and are very compatible, but he likes to build stuff out in the garage, which doesn't interest me at all.  So some days, he does that and I read books or do something else that I like to do that he doesn't like as much, and then later on we get together and do something together that we both like.  Would that be an unacceptable situation for you? 

But if we're not best friends, then how I am supposed to sing along with Jason Mraz, "Lucky I'm in love with my best friend"?  I agree that it's not reasonable to always expect that a spouse/partner should also be your best friend, though this expectation seem to be the current relationship trend, and most relationship advice gurus seem to promote the idea that your romantic partner should also be your best friend.   So if I ended up with a romantic partner who wasn't necessarily my best friend, that might be reasonable and healthy but it would still be going against the prevailing relationship wisdom and the dominant relationship ideal.  

 

4 hours ago, BaileyB said:

I totally agree with this. In part, this is why you are compatible...

 

My partner and I don’t share every interest, but we enjoy each other’s company... we enjoy going for long drives together, just sitting in silence together and watching the world go by... We enjoy watching television together in bed, we enjoy playing cards together to pass the time during quarantine... We find comfort in each other’s company. 

No one person will ever meet ALL of your needs. I think the way to happiness is to develop a variety of relationships, appreciating each person for the unique things they bring to your life. And then, there is that famous quote from the Beatles - “the love you take, is equal to the love you make...”

I agree that no one person can meet all of your needs.  But again, this goes against our relationship ideal, which is that a romantic partner is supposed to simultaneously be your lover, soul mate, best friend, spiritual guide, household manager, co-parent, professional critic, therapist, childhood-wound-healer, hiking buddy, tennis buddy, travel buddy, etc. etc.  Basically yes, our ideal of relationships is that you are supposed to find one person who can give you everything you need (a.k.a the "Golden Fantasy").  Obviously this is crazy, but it still seems to be our modern expectation for romantic relationships.  

If you're talking about just the joy of being together and watching the world go by, this is sort of the idea of that "female energy" that I like.   

OK, so if a romantic partner can't meet all of my needs, then which needs can she meet?  

 

[Wave Rider]

11 hours ago, enigma32 said:

I feel like you're trying to force something that should just happen naturally. Like you have these very specific ideas in your mind what a relationship is, or what a friendship is, and you are disgruntled because life doesn't comply with your rules. 

Take your married couple that does everything together. Do you honestly think they just happen to meet someone that enjoyed all of the same things? I doubt it. Usually, it is more like you meet someone and you enjoy their company so much that the two of you find yourselves doing everything together. 

Remember that mormon girl you mentioned? You said something about you were both getting out of Mormonism and that is what drew you together but once that part of your life was behind you, things just drifted apart. Well, hobbies can be similar. I used to play World of Warcraft all the time back in 2005 and I had a GF that also got into the game with me. She and I were really happy together playing that game and we stayed together...until we stopped playing the game. Once we no longer had that hobby holding us together, we broke up. Be careful if you base a relationship on one shared interest, no matter how much you enjoy it.

Pay no attention to what people post on Fakebook. I know people that post how much they love their partner while they are out there cheating on them. Heck, half of what I post on Facebook is just for trolling someone. 

As for trying to force the friendship, I'd like to say again that I live in a virtually all-male world and that a friendship with a woman in my world would never happen naturally because there are almost no women.  If I want female friends, I have make a conscious effort to go outside my normal routine to find them and befriend them.  So I'm trying to do that, and it's a lot of work.  

That's a fair point about shared hobbies - if I had a friend/girlfriend who was also a pilot or surfer, and if one of us stopped flying or surfing for whatever reason, the common ground between us could possibly evaporate.    

And yeah, I agree about facebook.  People present a highly curated image of themselves on facebook that might bear little resemblance to their actual life.  But at least I can tell if someone has ignored a message I sent them, which to me is not really about fake vs. real. 

11 hours ago, basil67 said:

Perhaps she's got a boyfriend?  It could explain her absence.    Thing is, my female/female friendships look like this -, but because I have a partner, it would be vastly inappropriate for me to have a male best friend who I connect with like you describe.   And here in lies the problem with a deep male/female friendship - it's all well and good until someone gets a partner.  Thing is, most partners aren't going to put up with their loved one having someone else of the opposite sex as a BFF.  

If you can find someone like her who you want a relationship with, THEN you'll be getting somewhere.    And for the record, the way you describe your friendship with her is how I describe mine with my husband.  Minus the shared interests (he likes sport/I like craft and history).   As you've discovered with this woman, there's so much more than shared interests to talk about.

I really doubt she had a boyfriend several months ago when we were talking more.  I don't know if she does now.  I kinda doubt it, but maybe.  At this point I feel like she's breadcrumbing me, because she sends me a message once a month saying that she wants to continue talking, but then she disappears for another month.  Regardless of her motives, I think that's rude and irresponsible.  If she has a boyfriend then I'd be totally fine with her telling me that it wouldn't be appropriate for us to keep up an active friendship while she was dating someone.  I'd much rather have her do that than to have her be hot and cold, to have her be very engaged in talking with me, then suddenly disappear....then reappear....then disappear again, all the while promising me a friendship, but never fully following through. 

It seemed obvious to me months ago that she probably has an avoidant attachment style.  Our friendship was indeed like you said with your husband; it's great, until she disappears, is gone for awhile, then reappears again.  Then it's good until she disappears again. I've dealt with avoidants long enough that this behavior no longer confuses me the way that it used to, and at least I know that her hot-and-cold behavior is mostly about her emotional issues, not mine.  But it's still annoying because I feel like I'm missing out on a great chance for a rewarding friendship, and I wish she'd stick around long enough for us to develop a stable bond.  

Edited July 22, 2020 by Wave Rider

[clia]

2 hours ago, Wave Rider said:

But if we're not best friends, then how I am supposed to sing along with Jason Mraz, "Lucky I'm in love with my best friend"?  I agree that it's not reasonable to always expect that a spouse/partner should also be your best friend, though this expectation seem to be the current relationship trend, and most relationship advice gurus seem to promote the idea that your romantic partner should also be your best friend.   So if I ended up with a romantic partner who wasn't necessarily my best friend, that might be reasonable and healthy but it would still be going against the prevailing relationship wisdom and the dominant relationship ideal.  

I agree that no one person can meet all of your needs.  But again, this goes against our relationship ideal, which is that a romantic partner is supposed to simultaneously be your lover, soul mate, best friend, spiritual guide, household manager, co-parent, professional critic, therapist, childhood-wound-healer, hiking buddy, tennis buddy, travel buddy, etc. etc.  Basically yes, our ideal of relationships is that you are supposed to find one person who can give you everything you need (a.k.a the "Golden Fantasy").  Obviously this is crazy, but it still seems to be our modern expectation for romantic relationships.  

You can have any kind of relationship you want.  Why are so caught up on a "current relationship trend" or "relationship ideal" that someone else created?  It almost seems like you are purposely creating an impossibly high barrier for yourself to avoid having to actually have a relationship.    

[lana-banana]

90 percent of weightlifters are men? Are you serious? It's like fifty-fifty, maybe seventy-thirty outside major metropolitan areas. Plenty of women, myself included, are lifting nerds. More to the point:

Why can't I find that kind of relationship?  If that guy found a woman to be his workout buddy, why can't I find a woman to be my flying buddy and surfing buddy?

I am sure you could if you stopped being so rigid and insistent on how you think things are supposed to be. One common element in your threads is a specific type of disappointment: almost always about an imaginary standard and the failure of your current reality to meet said standard. You have even written about your feelings of betrayal about romance as depicted in Disney movies. This is a very strange perspective to have about the world. As clia put it, you are the one creating barriers to your happiness, and rather than trying to knock down any of those barriers you just complain that they're there.

Have you ever thought about not reducing women to a sum total of hobbies and interests, and instead tried getting to know them as people? I mean yes, you need shared hobbies and interests, but that alone doesn't keep a relationship together. I studied classics in college and am always reading philosophy, and while my husband (an engineer) has practically zero exposure to philosophy, I have awesome conversations with him because he is a curious person who loves to explore new ideas. We bonded very quickly over our shared interests and it was a big part of how we fell for each other, but it's so much more: it's intellect and passion and being open to new things with each other. If you start appreciating women as individuals and not as groupings of characteristics who will inevitably fail your hundred-question box-checking exercise, you might learn something.

[BaileyB]

6 hours ago, Wave Rider said:

If I ended up with a romantic partner who wasn't necessarily my best friend, that might be reasonable and healthy but it would still be going against the prevailing relationship wisdom and the dominant relationship ideal.  

I agree that no one person can meet all of your needs.  But again, this goes against our relationship ideal, which is that a romantic partner is supposed to simultaneously be your lover, soul mate, best friend, spiritual guide, household manager, co-parent, professional critic, therapist, childhood-wound-healer, hiking buddy, tennis buddy, travel buddy, etc. etc.  Obviously this is crazy, but it still seems to be our modern expectation for romantic relationships.  

This is our modern expectation of romantic relationships - says who? You have a group of people on this board saying this is not reality! I would describe my partner as three of those things. He would like to think we are also travel buddies but we travel terribly together. I still love him and we have a very fulfilling relationship - most of the time. 😂

I will say, when I was younger I was searching for my one true love, my life partner... I don’t think I had nearly the expectations that you have... but, eventually I met a man who I enjoyed spending time with, who became my lover, and is now my most frequent companion. I didn’t “settle,” but I became more realistic about life and about relationships. I decided I would appreciate the good things in my partner, continue to enjoy other relationship with friends, and develop my own Self reliance and emotional control. It’s a nice balance, no one person can be all these things. That’s an unrealistic and unhealthy expectation of a relationship. Is he my best friend - in some ways... but, not in the way that my girlfriends are my best friends. Is he my household manager, goodness no. Our house would be a disaster if that was true. Is he my spiritual guide - ha! No. Is he my therapist and my childhood healer... goodness, when I try to talk about my feelings he will often respond by changing the subject. I have to say to him - “I’m trying to talk to you about something...” and then he tunes in, sometimes. 

One way to absolutely ensure that you will be disappointed with life and with relationships is to move through this world with expectations - especially unrealistic expectations. Case in point...

Edited July 23, 2020 by BaileyB

[Wave Rider]

On 7/22/2020 at 1:49 PM, clia said:

 It almost seems like you are purposely creating an impossibly high barrier for yourself to avoid having to actually have a relationship.    

Alright, this is a fair question.  Am I setting impossibly high expectations because I don't actually want a relationship?  I'll concede that this is partially true.  The story behind this is a little longer than I will go into here, but I'm having to reconsider some things.  

On 7/22/2020 at 5:09 PM, lana-banana said:

I studied classics in college and am always reading philosophy, and while my husband (an engineer) has practically zero exposure to philosophy, I have awesome conversations with him because he is a curious person who loves to explore new ideas. We bonded very quickly over our shared interests and it was a big part of how we fell for each other, but it's so much more: it's intellect and passion and being open to new things with each other. If you start appreciating women as individuals and not as groupings of characteristics who will inevitably fail your hundred-question box-checking exercise, you might learn something.

Yeah, this is a good way to think of it.  I'm a little annoyed with a certain asymmetry, which is that I need to learn her language, but she doesn't need to learn mine.  I need to learn to speak the language of emotional intimacy by sharing my feelings and listening carefully to her problems without offering solutions, but she does not need to learn physics or surfing.  This bothers me a little because our conversations will always be in her language rather than mine, which gives her a kind of advantage in the relationship, and she always has the power to blame me if I'm not in touch with my feelings enough, but I am not allowed to criticize her lack of, say, athletic ability.  I'm a little bothered by that.  

[Wiseman2]

Why not have a diversity of friends and date women you're attracted to?

The best thing you could do is get a therapist in your corner for an objective view and some insight.

Trying to figure yourself out this way seems like a dog chasing it's tail. You're just going in circles.

It's important to be honest with yourself and who you really are. 

For example  couples don't go around flying commercial aircraft together  for romance .

Is it possible you are simply not attracted to women but can't acknowledge that? 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Wiseman2