Infidelity solution: penalties or trust

[Rockdad]

Someone's insecurity is now literally screaming out loudly.  Reciting some requested oath is not going to change that inner issue.

[Minos]

On 7/24/2020 at 4:46 PM, BaileyB said:

The consequence of cheating on a partner should be the end of the relationship.
That would be enough to prevent most people from cheating, particularly those who value their partner and their relationship. 

"The consequence of cheating on a partner should be the end of the relationship." I fully agree with you in this.

About the second parte of your post:

- "That would be enough to prevent most people from cheating" :  Deppending on the scope attibuted to what cheating may be, this do not verify.

- "...particularly those who value their partner and their relationship.":  No one that value their relationtip and partner needs another reason to be prevented from cheating.

[WorldsSecondGreatestLover]

What a lot of crazy old women in this thread.  I'd do this for my wife even if I had never cheated, if she needed it-- if she just WANTED it even.  You know-- you love someone, they love you, you do things for them even if it's sometimes a little crazy?  No wonder divorce rates are so high, is romance dead?

Anyway OP,  go for it, why even ask?  Then if you get restless you just rescind, he knows what's up, and you break up and no infidelity happens.  There's literally no downside (unless you're a serial cheater)

Edited July 28, 2020 by WorldsSecondGreatestLover

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

Creatures of habit are habitual.

We are those creatures.

Your habits, they follow you unless you go out of your way to change them.

If he is bringing this up, he may already see the seeds being planted before you are even aware.

[d0nnivain]

On 7/24/2020 at 8:49 PM, Danielle000 said:

His view is: even if there is a low probability that something would happen if the oath was broken, the consequences are so severe that it would be sufficient to deter cheating or at least reduce the risk. 

I think your BF is nuts.  I also don't believe in curses. 

That said, if it means that much to him, costs you nothing, why not give him what he wants. even though it's absurd?  The problem is will he want some other wacky thing later about something else.  

If you do this, just remember that when you break up you have to verbally release yourself from this dopey curse.  

[Whatnotagain]

I think you need to view this in the context of your boyfriends heritage or nationality. In his upbringing this may have been a common practice and may not seem all that unusual to him. This sounds like something I have heard of before called an Infidelity Oath or Oaths and Rituals for Infidelity, which sounds very similar to the Marriage Oath you describe. From a Western point of view it sounds nutty, but to a another culture it may seem quite normal and something that has been practiced for generations.  

[Danielle000]

Thank you all for your interest in my post.  Sorry it took some time for me to get back here.  I have been thinking a lot these past days and considering your comments.  I also discussed more with my boyfriend.    Let me offer more thoughts and respond to questions some of you have asked.  I’ll try to be very candid and objective so that the discussion can be as useful as possible.

I had an affair in my early thirties that lasted about three months.  I had been with my ex almost 12 years when this happened.  My ex ended the relationship when he found out.  I am now 38.  My current partner heard about this past affair through someone at work.  He asked me about it.  At first i denied, but then when he showed me he knew the details i confirmed what had happened.  Like i said earlier, i never cheated on my current partner.  We have not broken up since he found out about my past affair, but he is more distant and is putting the brakes on projects we had for the future together.  He says he wants to find a way to trust me. 

I admit that cheating on your partner is a terrible and selfish thing to do.  I did a lot of soul searching since then and i am a new person now.  I would never EVER do it again.

Some have commented that past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior, and that past cheaters have a higher risk of cheating again.  This may indeed be statistically true.  But it does not mean everyone who has ever cheated would do it again.  There lies the difficulty.  I say i would never do it again (and i deeply mean it), but i have to admit that anyone would probably say that.  I never gave my bf reasons to worry, but i had never given reasons to my ex to worry either.  So from my current partner’s view point, i can see how he sees me as being at a higher risk of cheating than the average person.  I am hoping to find ways to build more trust.  He came up with this oath idea and i am actually considering it, but i wish there was another way.  I would like to find ways to build trust in a more positive way. 

Regarding my boyfriend, he is not at all a voodoo type and is not particularly religious.  He is not usually insecure either.  He is really your boy-next-door type, plays football, good looking, charming, and successful.  We are in love.  We have been having a lot of fun together and great sex.   He says he’s not afraid i would be unfaithful now, but worries about the risk that i might seek an affair some years down the road when the intensity of the passion gradually wears off.  This is what had happened in my previous relationship.  He says trying to keep the flame alive is part of the solution but is not enough because i might crave again the novelty, and excitement of an affair.

He wants to find a way to trust me in the long term without having to look over my shoulder.  

We discussed the broad subject of religion in the past and share the same view.  I could say we are relatively agnostic: that is we do not know for sure whether or not a god or supernatural things exist.  But we think it is at least possible that they do exist.

My bf’s idea of the oath is to reduce the chances of cheating.  It might not be iron-clad effective since we never really know what the other person might think, but it would bring the risk to a tolerable level in his view. I have no reason to doubt he is faithful, but he says he is willing to take the oath too so that things are fair.  He thinks that expressly inviting bad consequences on ourselves if we were to break the oath is what makes it strong.  His theory is that we do not know if the consequence would occur if one of us broke the oath, but since the consequences are so severe we would be deterred to try.  The idea is that if one of us was no longer entirely fulfilled in the relationship, we would end it instead of taking chances and risking these potential dire consequences for the rest of our lives and beyond.

Again, it is not my boyfriend who would do something bad if i cheated.  He does not have any voodoo dolls or anything like that, and he is not the violent type at all.  It would just be the freestanding oath that i took that might expose me to self-imposed bad karma if i were to break it, and same for him.

I do not see this as controlling because having an exclusive relationship is what i want anyway, and i can end the oath or the relationship at any time just by saying it.

But i wish there was another more positive way of building real trust, and that i could convince my boyfriend to follow me on that path.  My fairy tale love story does not involve taking and oath involving negative consequences.   At the same time I try to keep and open mind and realize all things aren’t black or white.  Perhaps i could also be talked into seeing this oath idea in a positive light.

[Wiseman2]

Unfortunately it seems like he is going to hold this over your head forever as a way to punish and demean you. The oath is just a symptom of that. Even if you went along with this, it would still not develop trust.

It seems he simply disrespects you and wishes to take matters in his own hands by inventing this oath idea to bring forth what an amoral person he thinks you are and thereby he is superior and you must kowtow to this. This isn't about an oath. It's about using this to hold  power over you with constant shame.

Either he understands you made mistake before you met him or he doesn't. You need to read Faustus. Selling your soul to the devil is an oft repeated theme .  In some cases wealth, youth, beauty, love, etc. In this case, his paranoia and egotism.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Wiseman2

[mark clemson]

2 hours ago, Danielle000 said:

 My fairy tale love story does not involve taking and oath involving negative consequences.   At the same time I try to keep and open mind and realize all things aren’t black or white.  Perhaps i could also be talked into seeing this oath idea in a positive light.

As you are well aware by now, real life love stories, while they can be genuinely wonderful, are never fairy tales. That said, I would never try to talk you into seeing this request in a positive light - it's not a positive request. As noted above (and by numerous folks) it smacks of, and is indeed driven by, major insecurities. While I can certainly see the logic, I'm honestly surprised someone in their late 30's would suggest something like this.

It seems to me you'll have to either figure out some alternative way to get him to trust you, or decide if this is a compromise you can live with or not and take the associated follow up action.

Many spouses have "open" phones, computers, etc with passwords known to the other as a way to establish transparency. Perhaps he could be talked into that or similar measures instead.

I suspect that if you refuse to do this (and can't think of an acceptable alternative), he will see that as "evidence" that you can't be trusted and take it from there. Despite how you feel right now, it's quite possible you're actually ultimately better off if that happens.

[Wiseman2]

18 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I suspect that if you refuse to do this (and can't think of an acceptable alternative), he will see that as "evidence" that you can't be trusted and take it from there. Despite how you feel right now, it's quite possible you're actually ultimately better off if that happens.

Agree. It seems 'he is more distant and is putting the brakes on projects we had for the future together' means he is using this as a way to stall things and keep you in a minor, one down place in his life. In other words manipulative. 

Even if you acquiesce to this, he'll find something else like you have to wash his feet or crawl and fetch his slippers every night to prove you won't leave him,etc.  Unless this is some sort of BDSM type of humiliation it seems manipulative. PS. I too am amazed that middle aged people would engage in this seriously rather than some game.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Wiseman2

[oldtruck]

6 hours ago, Danielle000 said:

Thank you all for your interest in my post.  Sorry it took some time for me to get back here.  I have been thinking a lot these past days and considering your comments.  I also discussed more with my boyfriend.    Let me offer more thoughts and respond to questions some of you have asked.  I’ll try to be very candid and objective so that the discussion can be as useful as possible.

I had an affair in my early thirties that lasted about three months.  I had been with my ex almost 12 years when this happened.  My ex ended the relationship when he found out.  I am now 38.  My current partner heard about this past affair through someone at work.  He asked me about it.  At first i denied, but then when he showed me he knew the details i confirmed what had happened.  Like i said earlier, i never cheated on my current partner.  We have not broken up since he found out about my past affair, but he is more distant and is putting the brakes on projects we had for the future together.  He says he wants to find a way to trust me. 

I admit that cheating on your partner is a terrible and selfish thing to do.  I did a lot of soul searching since then and i am a new person now.  I would never EVER do it again.

Some have commented that past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior, and that past cheaters have a higher risk of cheating again.  This may indeed be statistically true.  But it does not mean everyone who has ever cheated would do it again.  There lies the difficulty.  I say i would never do it again (and i deeply mean it), but i have to admit that anyone would probably say that.  I never gave my bf reasons to worry, but i had never given reasons to my ex to worry either.  So from my current partner’s view point, i can see how he sees me as being at a higher risk of cheating than the average person.  I am hoping to find ways to build more trust.  He came up with this oath idea and i am actually considering it, but i wish there was another way.  I would like to find ways to build trust in a more positive way. 

Regarding my boyfriend, he is not at all a voodoo type and is not particularly religious.  He is not usually insecure either.  He is really your boy-next-door type, plays football, good looking, charming, and successful.  We are in love.  We have been having a lot of fun together and great sex.   He says he’s not afraid i would be unfaithful now, but worries about the risk that i might seek an affair some years down the road when the intensity of the passion gradually wears off.  This is what had happened in my previous relationship.  He says trying to keep the flame alive is part of the solution but is not enough because i might crave again the novelty, and excitement of an affair.

He wants to find a way to trust me in the long term without having to look over my shoulder.  

We discussed the broad subject of religion in the past and share the same view.  I could say we are relatively agnostic: that is we do not know for sure whether or not a god or supernatural things exist.  But we think it is at least possible that they do exist.

My bf’s idea of the oath is to reduce the chances of cheating.  It might not be iron-clad effective since we never really know what the other person might think, but it would bring the risk to a tolerable level in his view. I have no reason to doubt he is faithful, but he says he is willing to take the oath too so that things are fair.  He thinks that expressly inviting bad consequences on ourselves if we were to break the oath is what makes it strong.  His theory is that we do not know if the consequence would occur if one of us broke the oath, but since the consequences are so severe we would be deterred to try.  The idea is that if one of us was no longer entirely fulfilled in the relationship, we would end it instead of taking chances and risking these potential dire consequences for the rest of our lives and beyond.

Again, it is not my boyfriend who would do something bad if i cheated.  He does not have any voodoo dolls or anything like that, and he is not the violent type at all.  It would just be the freestanding oath that i took that might expose me to self-imposed bad karma if i were to break it, and same for him.

I do not see this as controlling because having an exclusive relationship is what i want anyway, and i can end the oath or the relationship at any time just by saying it.

But i wish there was another more positive way of building real trust, and that i could convince my boyfriend to follow me on that path.  My fairy tale love story does not involve taking and oath involving negative consequences.   At the same time I try to keep and open mind and realize all things aren’t black or white.  Perhaps i could also be talked into seeing this oath idea in a positive light.

stick a fork in this relationship it is finished.

 

you lied to your BF,  you had an affair, and would not admit that you had an affair until your BF

showed you proof.

 

WW mindset: you still have that WW thought process. Do not admit to anything, trickle truth,

only admit to what your BF can prove, never admit to what your BF does not know.

 

Your BF will always have trust issues now, dump him, these trust issues will never get

better or go away. You had your chance and you lied. You broke the trust bond.

 

Marriage vows: to forsake all others and all the rest  of those promises are not enough

to ease your BF fears and worries, Additional vows and promises will not fix what is

broken in your BF. Again dump him. Get yourself into IC to end your lying in relationships.

Then when done with IC seek a new man to start a relationship.

[merrmeade]

On 7/24/2020 at 11:20 AM, Danielle000 said:

He asked me whether i would be willing to make a solemn oath of fidelity before God. In the oath, i would say that if i ever cheated on him, i accept that a spell of back luck and tragedies would follow me for the rest of my life and beyond. 

This is for real? What does this even mean? These two people write their marriage vows with language from Snow White? If they both share this belief in a God of spells and eternal “back luck,” then they’ve got worse problems than who commits adultery first. This oath is like little kids swearing best friends forever cross my heart and hope to die. 

It’s not even symbolic. There are PLENTY of adulterers who rug-sweep or don’t even get found out but go on to reap the boons of good fortune. This oath wouldn’t keep their feelings in check when circumstances throw them close to someone attractive and sympathetic to them. It wouldn't teach them about flirting, what encourages it and what doesn’t. This oath isn't a substitute for honest dialogue and shared introspection.

This is an immature oath because the desired behavior is motivated primarily by fear of terrible consequences, rather than the promise of ever deepening love and goodness. 

I suggest they figure out what motivates them as individuals, the beliefs about people, work and education they share. They should LEARN about infidelity instead of living in dread of it. Let them go to marriage counseling for help in talking about their beliefs and just learn how to talk.

Even better SHE should go to counseling individually. Or do both. Her boyfriend is justifiably fearful of this behavior he knows she is capable of doing. She has lied and cheated. Why? How did she think about what she was doing at the time? What made it possible for her to justify that behavior and ignore the reality of what she was doing to her partner?

OP: That is what your boyfriend really needs from you more than making deals with God. He needs to know that you have dug out that secret part of yourself capable of carrying on a clandestine affair that requires lying again and again to a loving partner. He is afraid of that person, and you should be, too. It’s too late for oaths. You need to bring this persona out into the light of day and understand it thoroughly yourself and then talk to your boyfriend about it. You can’t do it by yourself. It takes tremendous courage and concentration. Get some guidance. The rewards will be more powerful than the spell of your oath.

And for Pete's sake, leave God out of it. That’s another matter you need to address - your basic world view and your relationship with God or the divine. That is a wonderful part of life, too. Don’t settle for some remnant of your childhood religion that leaves you acting out of fear. There’s another side. It’s worth it, too.

Edited August 2, 2020 by merrmeade

[merrmeade]

one more thing: The others may be right about your boyfriend. You both have a lot of growing up to do it seems to me, but growing up as in maturing and knowing what you want because you know who you are. It may turn out you or he or both cant do this work together or at all, but nevermind. it wont work out between you with this unexamined fear. 

[merrmeade]

21 hours ago, Danielle000 said:

I had an affair in my early thirties that lasted about three months.  I had been with my ex almost 12 years when this happened.  My ex ended the relationship when he found out.  I am now 38.  My current partner heard about this past affair through someone at work.  He asked me about it.  At first i denied, but then when he showed me he knew the details i confirmed what had happened.  Like i said earlier, i never cheated on my current partner.  We have not broken up since he found out about my past affair, but he is more distant and is putting the brakes on projects we had for the future together.  He says he wants to find a way to trust me. 

I admit that cheating on your partner is a terrible and selfish thing to do.  I did a lot of soul searching since then and i am a new person now.  I would never EVER do it again.

One more! You did try to give a rational spin to your opening post in your most recent and kind of proved my point - that ultimately an oath is just words. It must have posted while I was writing. Regardless of your attempt to give a rational spin on everything, you missed something very important:

”At first I denied....”

So how is it you can sit there and tell him and us that you are “a new person”?

You didn’t even notice the inconsistency in saying you’ve changed, you “would never EVER do it again” when you just did. Your first reaction when confronted  with an unpleasant truth about yourself was to lie. 

Edited August 2, 2020 by merrmeade

[Crazelnut]

Nothing you do will ever be enough for your BF to trust you. Nothing. He is afraid of something that *might* happen in the *future* and there is nothing you can do to fix that. Your entire relationship with him will be one of mistrust. You put the nail in that coffin when you lied to him. He will never believe you won't lie and cheat on him because you already HAVE lied to him. 

[schlumpy]

On 8/1/2020 at 2:54 PM, Danielle000 said:

I had an affair in my early thirties that lasted about three months.  I had been with my ex almost 12 years when this happened.  My ex ended the relationship when he found out.  I am now 38.  My current partner heard about this past affair through someone at work.  He asked me about it.  At first i denied, but then when he showed me he knew the details i confirmed what had happened.

This is (in my humble opinion) what damaged your current relationship. If you had taken ownership of the affair upfront and talked about the lesson learned, I think it would be a moot point right now but you didn't. Instead, you planted a seed.

Being comfortable with an affair or sex with strangers is a learned behavior. There is an engram in your mind where that activity resides and it can become dormant but will reawaken under favorable conditions.

You didn't state the reasons you cheated. How likely are those reasons to reoccur with your new love?

 

[onlyconnect]

As you and others have said, "trust is acquired" "we talk of "building (rebuilding) trust" and I'm sure that in the past relationship where you cheated you had to go through the process of developing your own trust never to "do it again".

So we cannot have it both ways: we are always developing and building trust, or we magically have 100% trust in everything in everybody. I find going with the former safe and more realistic and going with the latter ill conceived, impossible, and contrary to common sense.

Give him what he needs, and help him, as you grow together to see how these things don't build trust. If he is open to growing as a person, he will eventually come to understand that asking you to do that was immature. No biggie. People do immature things sometimes. But give up on a 2 year courtship that you are happy in just because someone is nervous about something you did in the past that you might do to him? That is a bigger red flag to me. What, he isn't allowed to be a little insecure about a future he cannot write?  Not to diffuse his doubts by refusing to help him come to some kind of agreed upon reciprocal "vow" is hardly worth tossing a relationship over. Albeit I'm assuming that in all other aspects of life, h isn't a contol freak. 

[Fletch Lives]

People with integrity who love their partner are naturally monogamous.

It's sad that most people don't understand this and many have anxiety about their relationships. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Fletch Lives