The loopholes (thermoregulation) that anti-maskers are trying to grasp

[QuietRiot]

I am noticing anti-maskers are doing what they can, grasping at straws, to come up with a reason not to wear a mask. I am finding specifically that "thermoregulation" may (or may not) be an issue when it comes to this. That wearing a mask can impact the body temperature of the wearer, particularly on hot days.

However, this is all moot because there are options and other things to  consider.

1. You can do curb side pick up when it comes to food or even other items

2. Airlines are even saying, "Too bad, find another means to travel!"

3. I'm not buying that it can really have a significant impact on the wearer that does a grocery run that lasts for a limited time....I mean, if you're working in the sun and heat, I can see how it can impact your breathing a bit, but still.

So what do you think about anti-maskers looking for reasons, such as health, to not wear masks? I give kudos to organizations that say "well, you can have it delivered, order from Amazon, or whatever"

[clia]

There seem to be a lot of people who don't like wearing masks, so they will come up with whatever reasons they can find to not wear them. 

But I have to admit that being forced to wear a mask outdoors when social distancing is possible makes no sense to me.  For the first time since the mandatory mask order started, I went somewhere outdoors where I was required to wear a mask -- a farmer's market.  It was near 90 degrees, sunny, and humid.  Given the heat, the mask made it hard for me to breathe and I felt sick.  It also got very damp with sweat, which was pretty gross.  (Doesn't seem all that sanitary to me.  I wonder if any studies have been done on the efficacy of masks under these types of conditions?)  I couldn't wait to leave and the entire experience was unpleasant, when usually I really enjoy shopping at a farmer's market on a Saturday.

As a result, I will not be going anywhere that I am required to wear a mask for a prolonged period of time outdoors in the heat of summer -- so the zoo, outdoor museums, farmer's markets, etc. near me will not be getting my money this summer.  Maybe this is fine -- many places are under reduced capacity, so they are probably filling up anyway without my business.  But I have to think that I'm not alone in feeling like this, and businesses are eventually going to suffer over these rules, when safety could likely be handled with other means (e.g., social distancing, capacity).  I just don't see how wearing a sweaty mask is protecting anyone.    

Edited July 27, 2020 by clia

[mark clemson]

FWIW, I agree with both points above. People generally have a tendency to cling to assertions that support their existing beliefs. For many that continues even if it's not factual or particularly sensible. You can hear it in some of the rants that get visibility online, or e.g. those that refuse to quarantine themselves even if infected. If you need to see how powerful denial can be with some folks, just check out the show Hoarders (if you have the stomach for it).

On the second point, forcing people to wear masks outdoors in non-urban environments where they can remain distant from others is not genuinely necessary.

I think the reason for that regulation is primarily that people seem to have a tendency to congregate in large numbers outdoors these days (e.g. at beaches) since there's little else to do, and if some of them don't wear masks and happen to be symptom-less carriers, they risk infecting others if they aren't cautious about the distancing.  So a blanket approach is being taken, rather than trying to fine tune rules about how many people are present, etc.

I think a traffic ticket approach makes some sense for enforcement. I think that's all the enforcement we should reasonably have in a country like the US, although I suspect some would disagree with me on that.

[regine_phalange]

Social distancing and immaculate hand hygiene are also super important measures, and I suspect the anti-maskers are not very keen on those either. I had heart-related shortness of breath for months and months that was distressing at times, but still wore face masks, and it wasn't that bad. The oxygen still gets in, it's just a bit uncomfortable because it gets hot and moist (this is when you need to change masks). You get used to it after a while. (edit: there are also face shields that people can use - easier to breathe in). 

Of course some people have mobility problems with their hands or have developmental/psychiatric issues that may make the use of face masks distressing. But honestly, my impression is that this is a tiny part of the population - it sounds like an excuse for most. These 3 measures were the same back in the 1918 flu, and the second wave came and was worse because people stopped social distancing and wearing masks. 

Edited July 30, 2020 by regine_phalange

[pepperbird]

On 7/25/2020 at 9:50 AM, QuietRiot said:

I am noticing anti-maskers are doing what they can, grasping at straws, to come up with a reason not to wear a mask. I am finding specifically that "thermoregulation" may (or may not) be an issue when it comes to this. That wearing a mask can impact the body temperature of the wearer, particularly on hot days.

However, this is all moot because there are options and other things to  consider.

1. You can do curb side pick up when it comes to food or even other items

2. Airlines are even saying, "Too bad, find another means to travel!"

3. I'm not buying that it can really have a significant impact on the wearer that does a grocery run that lasts for a limited time....I mean, if you're working in the sun and heat, I can see how it can impact your breathing a bit, but still.

So what do you think about anti-maskers looking for reasons, such as health, to not wear masks? I give kudos to organizations that say "well, you can have it delivered, order from Amazon, or whatever"

I have to wear one anyway, because I take medication that slows one's immune system to a crawl. If it's out there, I will catch it,lol.

To be honest, there's times when I could go out if I didn't have to wear one, but since I do, I'm stuck at home. My lungs and heart are sick, and if it's a hot day, I just can't breathe through it. It also irritates my skin, but again, what choice do I have?

[major_merrick]

I haven't worn a mask yet.  Don't intend to.  If I was actually worried about getting it, I'd be staying home like I did when I was pregnant.  I find it interesting how many threads have been posted so far about masks and those who wear them or refuse to.

Edited August 3, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Kitty Tantrum]

Temperature regulation is a legitimate issue for many, myself included. It's not a made-up thing, and it's not "grasping" if you actually have a condition which causes it.

Do a little reading on "autonomic dysfunction" or "dysautonomia."

I have this, and have struggled with it my entire life. It's part and parcel of a hereditary genetic condition (which has been confirmed recently by genetic testing).

It's like having an internal thermostat that doesn't work right, doesn't kick in to regulate things when it should. Like an oven that has two settings: "OFF" and "OVER NINE THOUSAND." It's a nervous system problem.

If my body is at rest and not actively generating heat, I can become hypothermic very quickly if I go from a warm environment to a cold one (in colder/Winter months I have to keep long coat and boots by the bed for if I have to get up and pee in the middle of the night).

But once my body does start generating heat, it's no joke. I can go from cold to dripping sweat, claustrophobic, panicking, feeling like I'm going to die if I don't rip all my clothes off, almost instantaneously. Seems kinda similar to a menopausal hot flash, but I've dealt with it my entire life. I remember my mom would bundle me up to play in the snow when I was little, and it was all fine until I actually started moving. I'd end up freaking out and throwing my coat off mere moments later, and it would be slick with sweat on the inside.

Raising my body temperature like that also makes my heart rate skyrocket, which doesn't help at all.

Medical. Exemptions. Exist. For. A. Reason.

That being said, I don't mind wearing a mask for as long as it actually doesn't cause me any problems.

But seriously WTF is with the "pro-mask" crowd more or less insisting that none of the LEGAL EXEMPTIONS OUTLINED IN THE MANDATES should actually apply to anybody, anywhere, ever? Or that claiming a legitimate exemption makes someone an "anti-masker"???

It's like people I've seen SWIMMING with masks on. That's not required anywhere that I know of, and shouldn't be because it is DANGEROUS. Most fabrics saturated with water are not possible to breathe through. Seems like there's this weird dogmatic culture of "extra-compliance" that is entirely based on wanting to be perceived in a certain way, and has nothing to do with actual safety. Like "I'm better and more caring than you because I wear my mask even when it's not required or recommended."

[gaius]

5 hours ago, Kitty Tantrum said:

 

5 hours ago, Kitty Tantrum said:

Medical. Exemptions. Exist. For. A. Reason.

That being said, I don't mind wearing a mask for as long as it actually doesn't cause me any problems.

But seriously WTF is with the "pro-mask" crowd more or less insisting that none of the LEGAL EXEMPTIONS OUTLINED IN THE MANDATES should actually apply to anybody, anywhere, ever? Or that claiming a legitimate exemption makes someone an "anti-masker"???

Probably because for every one person who legitimately has some sort of medical issue with a mask there's about 100 who just think they're special, shouldn't have to wear one, and try to get around it by claiming a medical exemption.

It's like how out of the 100 overweight people who claim they have thyroid issues probably one actually does. The rest just eat too much. 

If wearing a mask legitimately endangers someone's health then that person should stay home. Other people have a very legitimate right to be annoyed over having their health endangered by someone not wearing a mask. Even if that person does have a legitimate reason not to wear it.

[Kitty Tantrum]

1 minute ago, gaius said:

If wearing a mask legitimately endangers someone's health then that person should stay home.

The ACTUAL LAW disagrees, however. At least where I am. People with medical issues have lives, livelihoods, etc. too. Hence the exemption. This attitude is mind-boggling. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

How about if a handful of people with legit medical contraindications not wearing masks (seriously almost EVERYONE wears masks where I am, very high rate of compliance) legitimately scares you, then YOU stay home. YOU have that option, too, you know.

Telling folks they should not take a legal exemption that was literally written into the mandate FOR PEOPLE LIKE THEM? How is that any kind of sensible?

I have so far not seen a single "anti-masker" use a made-up condition to try to get out of wearing a mask. I HAVE seen people who absolutely qualify for the exemption (and with good reason) heckled by nasty people who think that ignoring or refusing to honor one part of a law, and harassing people who ARE actually following it as it is written, somehow makes them "more compliant" with it.

Seriously, WHERE ARE these droves of "anti-maskers with made-up medical conditions" - ???

[Shining One]

2 minutes ago, Kitty Tantrum said:

I have so far not seen a single "anti-masker" use a made-up condition to try to get out of wearing a mask.

People have been producing so many fake mask exemption cards that the Justice Department has made multiple statements declaring the documents as false. If it were just a handful of people doing this, there would have been no need for a statement.

Heck, people are selling these fake cards online. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by that.

[Kitty Tantrum]

Right - so people watch the news and they see a story about "anti-maskers and fake mask exemption cards" so they decide to assume that every single person they see not wearing a mask at their local (WHEREVER) must just be some jerk with a made-up condition because they "don't wanna."

And then they take it a step further and decide that because of (NATIONAL NEWS STORY), all of the legal exemptions ought to be null and void ANYWAY.

And then they get nasty and confrontational with people who have legitimate reasons for not wearing masks, and are actually perfectly compliant with the mandate as it is written.

That's what I see. It's insanity.

Outside of "on the news" - WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE?

[Kitty Tantrum]

I guess it's another thing that varies by region? Around here most everyone wears masks according to the mandate as far as I can see. MOST people in my area go above and beyond and wear them even when/where it's not required. That's why I have such a hard time wrapping my head around how straight-up NASTY and unhinged some of the folks around here get over seeing maybe one or two out of a hundred with no mask. I get the sense they're seriously projecting some of the BS they see on the national news onto their local community and it's gross.

Nobody even needs a doctor's note for the exemption as far as personal time is concerned. Doctor's notes are for employers. There is nothing in the mask laws here that requires anybody to carry (or even have on file) any kind of note or record of their condition to go about their daily business. But private citizens still seem to think it's their business to confront and harass other private citizens for exercising legitimate and prudent exemptions that were made available in the guidelines of the mandate to accommodate them.

I guess if I lived in an area where a suspicious number of people were claiming medical exemption, I'd be raising an eyebrow too. That is NOT the case here - it is a small minority, I think even most people who could (legitimately) exercise the exemption choose not to - IN PART BECAUSE the "Pro-Mask Zealots" seem to really like to pretend that it IS the case, and act accordingly.

The belligerent people around here aren't fabricating medical conditions, they're drunkenly shouting about their freedom and their constitutional rights, or just straight up being aggro like "you can't make me."

My take is that unless you happen to think that the professionals and experts who were consulted in the process of determining what measures should be taken, and to what extent they should be mandated, what exemptions should be permitted, etc. are WRONG... at some point you gotta understand that the extreme ends of this spectrum (anti-mask vs. pro-mask) both amount to the SAME THING, which is: "this other person should put their health at risk for my comfort." That attitude is, IMO, not okay from either side of this issue.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

On 8/2/2020 at 1:04 PM, major_merrick said:

 If I was actually worried about getting it,

Uh, what does that have to do with anything??

 

 

 

[QuietRiot]

6 hours ago, enigma32 said:

I assume most of the people who say that have a medical condition and don't have to wear masks are lying. I've seen plenty of them working with the public here. One lady even tried to force a standoff at our business by saying she wouldn't enter because she wouldn't wear a mask and she wanted someone here to walk outside of our office to serve her. 

In my experience, I have noticed that if you complain about something to a doctor, they will give you a note for almost anything. I know a guy that owns a car tint and accessories business and he tells customers that they can ask their doctor for a note to bypass the tint restrictions on their car. People do it just so they can use super dark tint. I bet a lot of doctors will write you a note for a mask exception if you pay for a doctor's visit. 

Yeah, kind of like when people abuse the "service dog" thing. Now these chumps considers a dog they bring into a store or restaurant a "service" dog.

[QuietRiot]

8 hours ago, gaius said:

 

Probably because for every one person who legitimately has some sort of medical issue with a mask there's about 100 who just think they're special, shouldn't have to wear one, and try to get around it by claiming a medical exemption.

It's like how out of the 100 overweight people who claim they have thyroid issues probably one actually does. The rest just eat too much. 

If wearing a mask legitimately endangers someone's health then that person should stay home. Other people have a very legitimate right to be annoyed over having their health endangered by someone not wearing a mask. Even if that person does have a legitimate reason not to wear it.

Thing is, let's say someone is legitimately exempt from wearing a masks, the businesses with a mask mandate....doesn't mean they'll be let into the store, but will be given the curbside option.

Certain airlines won't take people on their planes if they have such an exemption. They say, "Sorry, find another means of transportation"

They virus can still be spread regardless if you're suffering another health issue that keeps you from wearing a mask...so really, people trying to get out of wearing a mask by using a FAKE exemption card are just going to be met with THAT roadblock.

 

[introverted1]

Funny how surgeons are able to wear masks while doing a job that requires the utmost care and precision and suffer no degradation of performance, yet there are people who claim that a mask impedes them from carrying out ordinary, no-skills-required tasks.

Edited August 5, 2020 by introverted1

[Redhead14]

6 minutes ago, introverted1 said:

Funny how surgeons are able to wear masks while doing a job that requires the utmost care and precision and suffer no degradation of performance, yet there are people who claim that a mask impedes them from carrying out ordinary, no-skills-required tasks.

Whoomp, there it is!

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Redhead14

[regine_phalange]

On 8/2/2020 at 9:04 PM, major_merrick said:

I haven't worn a mask yet.  Don't intend to.  If I was actually worried about getting it, I'd be staying home like I did when I was pregnant.  I find it interesting how many threads have been posted so far about masks and those who wear them or refuse to.

No offence, but no one cares if you get it. Masks are used to protect others from our own microspit when we talk sneeze or cough. 

[Kitty Tantrum]

3 hours ago, introverted1 said:

Funny how surgeons are able to wear masks while doing a job that requires the utmost care and precision and suffer no degradation of performance, yet there are people who claim that a mask impedes them from carrying out ordinary, no-skills-required tasks.

Apples and oranges, my friend. Surgeons work in highly controlled environments (oxygen/pressure) and have been extensively trained and practiced and conditioned for the work they do. They are a self-selected crowd, further weeded out by the rigors of the profession before they ever get to that point. They also change their masks frequently, as soon as they begin to build up moisture from respiration. They are also not engaging their gross motor functions in the same fashion as someone who is walking around seeking out and gathering supplies.

Surgeons vs. grocery shoppers is not really a valid comparison.

"I sit here in this chair knitting and wearing high heels all day... what do you mean you can't go jogging in them because you have weak ankles??? LOL pathetic."

Why did MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS AND PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS include exemptions in the laws if nobody actually needs them?

[introverted1]

Sure, a tiny percentage of people have a valid medical exemption.  But most the people arguing against masks are doing so on some misguided "rights" argument or pseudo science about reinhalation of CO2.

[Shining One]

I don't really understand the inconsistency regarding proof of medical conditions. A person who is handicapped receives documentation to provide as proof of their handicap to allow them to used handicap parking spaces. However, there is no official documentation (to my knowledge) for those who are medically unable to wear masks. I suppose this is a "new" issue and it just hasn't been handled yet.

[serial muse]

This essay makes explicit the similarities between past arguments against seat belts (pseudoscience, freedoms hampered) and anti-mask arguments. Same same

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/05/us/seat-belts-masks-coronavirus-wellness-trnd/index.html

[Kitty Tantrum]

20 minutes ago, introverted1 said:

Sure, a tiny percentage of people have a valid medical exemption.  But most the people arguing against masks are doing so on some misguided "rights" argument or pseudo science about reinhalation of CO2.

Right - and under this presumption, we have this crazy phenomenon by which private citizens seem to feel that it is within their rights to HARASS or even ASSAULT other people for not wearing a mask. When they have literally ZERO POSSIBLE WAY of knowing whether that person has a qualifying medical condition or not.

"Most people don't actually need one" becomes "OOOOH I JUST KNOW that this person who isn't wearing a mask should be, they can't POSSIBLY have a valid medical exemption, TIME FOR VIGILANTE JUSTIIIIICE!"

And then, even if the person HAS A QUALIFYING CONDITION and states that, they are called a liar, accused of making something up because they want to kill someone's grandma.

People are using this argument of "most people are just pretending to have a qualifying condition" to justify taking their pent-up aggression out on anyone they have deemed "morally inferior" or "the enemy" for not wearing a mask. That's all it is.

If you're worried about safety, all you have to do is stay 6+ feet away from anyone without a mask on. The fact that the "Pro-Mask Zealots" will walk up and get all up in other people's faces about this tells me it is ANYTHING BUT a concern for actual safety that drives this behavior of making a public enemy of anyone not masked-up.

2 minutes ago, Shining One said:

I don't really understand the inconsistency regarding proof of medical conditions. A person who is handicapped receives documentation to provide as proof of their handicap to allow them to used handicap parking spaces. However, there is no official documentation (to my knowledge) for those who are medically unable to wear masks. I suppose this is a "new" issue and it just hasn't been handled yet.

Part of it is definitely that it is a new issue. But another part of it is that it's just not the same thing, and it's nowhere near the same SCOPE. The subset of people who have physical handicaps which impact their mobility is NOT the same subset of people who have issues that contraindicate regular/prolonged mask use - though there is some overlap. And the conditions which qualify are not necessarily conditions that are simple to QUANTIFY. Things like severe claustrophobia, anxiety, PTSD, etc. absolutely qualify - and these are all things that the average person might not have EVER had formally diagnosed, because of the time/expense involved, and because those issues can often be worked around pretty easily under normal ("old normal" lol) conditions. There are lots of people who don't even know they HAVE a problem wearing a mask until they actually do it the first time.

Trying to impose a documentation requirement would likely result in enough pushback (because it's not reasonable) that the whole mandate would fall apart. MANY MORE people would not respect it AT ALL, if the exemptions were not included exactly as they are.

I think the people who wrote the laws knew perfectly well what they were doing. The exemptions are there for a good reason, documentation is not required to claim medical exemption for a good reason.

People who take it upon themselves to try to impose THEIR OWN PERSONAL FEELINGS about the mandate, and how they FEEL it ought to apply to other people (or not), instead of accepting the law as written - those people are sh**birds.

[Kitty Tantrum]

Worth noting that a lot of the pro-maskers around here will ALSO give you the stink-eye and sometimes even get confrontational just if they don't think your mask is "good enough." Some of them are apparently under the misguided impression that there are "approved masks" vs. "not approved masks." (Spoiler alert: NONE OF THEM ARE "APPROVED" FOR VIRAL PROTECTION IN EITHER DIRECTION, IN OR OUT) They're literally not even reading the text of the mandate themselves, their gut just tells them (I guess?) that a single layer of fabric isn't good enough, or that it can't possibly "count" if it's a scarf or a bandana instead of a surgical-style mask. The ONLY thing the mandate specifies is "fabric" that covers mouth and nose. Scarves and bandanas are EXPLICITLY PERMITTED.

I don't see any of this as a "pro-mask" vs "anti-mask" problem.

This is an issue of the same exact disordered behaviors and thought processes evidencing themselves in the same principle ways on both sides of an issue.

The folks who try to enforce their own dogmatic interpretations of the mandate on other people are not somehow in a stronger moral or legal position than the people who try to claim an exemption when they don't actually need one. Both of these positions are about posturing and imposing their own will on others - not about safety, not about health, not about following the law.

[gaius]

@Kitty Tantrum, you've been arguing against the effectiveness of masks for a while on here. And I get the impression you really just don't want to be forced to wear one. And who does? I don't know one person who enjoys it. I certainly don't. So I can relate to that.

But at this point the only way we can reopen with a reasonable level of safety is to have every single person in common indoor areas wearing a mask. One person can ruin it for dozens, even hundreds of others. So if you're used to being able to say you have PTSD, or you're allergic to gluten, this is your service dog, or many of the other things that society normally affords special treatment to, in this case you're unfortunately just like everyone else. Sorry but you gotta get used to it.

Speaking of cases in the news, I'd be surprised if you could even find one of someone who has a legitimate medical issue, not PTSD or the other things you mentioned, that makes mask wearing very dangerous and somehow hasn't been able to get groceries or gas, or continue to work. The essence of your complaint seems more geared toward general harrassment of non mask wearers rather than there actually being cases of people who would drop dead from mask usage being chased out of places like Frankenstein.